[FastJack]

And somebody should tell the authors that the coastline of what used to be California "is the canon unless something later retconned it"

I'm failing to see where the problem is. Granted, the quality isn't stellar, but there's no appreciable difference between SR4, SR4A, CE, and 6WA as far as I can tell.


Now, that Fanpro sunk a huge chunk of California and Baja California is ridiculous, but until Jason lets me finally write a version of L.A. that retcons everything since NAGNA we're stuck for now.

Now see, some of us like parts of what happened in California. Not all of it, but parts of it.

[Crimsondude]

There are decent parts of California, and there are workable ideas about L.A., but sometimes you have to burn down the forest to re-seed it.

[Sengir]

Now, that Fanpro sunk a huge chunk of California and Baja California is ridiculous

...but regardless of what one may think about it, it is and was clearly intended to be canon.

Funny...not too long ago you were stomping your feet and demanding we respect supposed canon, now you are like "oh well, they ignored each and every geographical change in the 6th World, so what"...

[bigity]

Noticed that too did ya?

[Crimsondude]

Now, that Fanpro sunk a huge chunk of California and Baja California is ridiculous

...but regardless of what one may think about it, it is and was clearly intended to be canon.

Funny...not too long ago you were stomping your feet and demanding we respect supposed canon, now you are like "oh well, they ignored each and every geographical change in the 6th World, so what"...

Actually what I said was:

As for Bogotá, there's no map, but as I recall the comment in regards to that mini-sub is not ... comprehensive. But just as a reminder this is also the game where an entire country (Luxembourg) is now part of a tri-national irradiated zone, Libya is a post-nuclear wasteland that exists solely for corporate war games, most of the Los Angeles basin (along with other chunks of California and Baja California) is underwater, an localized EMP bomb somehow crippled the Panama Canal so that Aztechnology had to go and carve a new one through Nicaragua in less than five years, and an island emerged in the middle of the Pacific Ocean one day filled with natural orichalcum.

Shadowrun is not reality. However, Patrick may be too modest to say it but the fact is that Shadowrun isn't Dr. Who. There is a canon. That canon, like all canons going back to Church canon law, which is where we get the name, is defined by arbiters: Us, the freelancers and artists (Oh, yeah. The art has been, AFAIK, canon.) as permitted by the line developers. That's why I don't mind that Lofwyr has stats. Anyone can kill him in their game, but he's not dead in the canon continuity unless we say he is.


We are like a buffet. We put out what we think will be most enjoyable and useful for your consumption, and then let you have at it. Bring in your own food if you like. However, the selection is what the selection is. Unless I'm told differently, the events of the Dragon Heart Saga are canon. You don't have to like it or use it, but that's the way it is as the game is being continually constructed even if it never comes up again.

Sorry. I don't see any stomping of feet there. In fact the very idea of me doing some sort of Respect Mah Authoritah dance is pretty ridiculous. I spent fifteen years playing SR while having mutually agreed to adhering to canon as close as was possible. I am not going to pretend it's easy, and I honestly wouldn't ever expect any tabletop or PBP/PBEM group to adhere to it as closely as Shadowland did.


OTOH, retcons do happen. They've happened several times ranging from the number of nuclear weapons used in aggression to the name of entire countries. Chances are they will happen again.

Of course, the whole point of my comment is that Jason will never let me reboot California. But I can wish it, and I can pretend that it didn't happen at a personal game. However, unless I dazzle the Hell out of him (which I assert that I can do) don't you go worrying about me touching precious, precious continuity as I express my own opinions on what I think is a horrible set of material I have to deal with.


I would have gotten back to you earlier, but I was too busy changing the canon, and then went on vacation.

[Sengir]

Actually what I said was:

This, in response to people suggesting that not everything in 6WA should be taken at face value:

6WA is the canon unless something later retconned it.

(Emphasis in original)

[FastJack]

Actually what I said was:

This, in response to people suggesting that not everything in 6WA should be taken at face value:

6WA is the canon unless something later retconned it.

(Emphasis in original)

Just because something is canon, does not mean that it should be taken at face value (within the universe).

[bigity]

Hahaha

[Crimsondude]

Actually what I said was:

This, in response to people suggesting that not everything in 6WA should be taken at face value:

6WA is the canon unless something later retconned it.

(Emphasis in original)

Well, that's just the way it is. I don't know what else to say.


You know, there's always been the caveat for the last 22 years that because the in-character material is written by characters who may or may not know everything, they could be wrong. But as a whole, my point remains.

[CanRay]

Take into consideration that the In-Universe information is given by the Characters Perspective.  "Unreliable Narrator" and all that comes into play very heavily.

No, I'm not going to link to TVTropes.

[Nath]

I'm sorry, but the "Unreliable Narrator" excuse doesn't hold water in this case: Jackpoint is an online community, so the tiniest possibility that someone might get a fact wrong under a certain interpretation should trigger at least two people posting opposing arguments

[Sengir]

You know, there's always been the caveat for the last 22 years that because the in-character material is written by characters who may or may not know everything, they could be wrong.

Just to refresh your memories: We are talking about maps, not in-character writing.

[Fizzygoo]

I'm sorry, but the "Unreliable Narrator" excuse doesn't hold water in this case: Jackpoint is an online community, so the tiniest possibility that someone might get a fact wrong under a certain interpretation should trigger at least two people posting opposing arguments

Which happens . Occasionally there are the posters calling "BS" to a previous statement or going so far as to actually explain why they're wrong.

There's also the other GM tool which is that each book being timestamped (the moment the reader downloads the compilation) at a certain date means that the GM could decide that A ) a piece of information in the main JackPoint article is wrong and that B ) no one who knows that the info is false has posted information to argue against it by that timestamp date (either because they didn't see the article, were busy writing up a long argument against it, are busy trying to kill the person that posted it, have died, etc.).

There's a nice time frame for all the books (I'll call them cycles )
Cycle 1: Prior events...the actual period of time that given events happen.
Cycle 2: Writing cycle...the time period where the authors are writing it, up to and including where FastJack invites them to post and writes his brief intro.
Cycle 3: JackPoint commentators...all the comments occur during this period.
Cycle 4: The Download...where you download the most current info (as of the time-date stamp at the beginning of the download/book.

Unless there are internal references to time within Cycle 3, then one can't really know how long Cycle 3 is. It could all be within the time it takes to read that section and post those comments. Even further, if a poster posts a comment in the middle of an article...and never posts again...the reader has no way of knowing of that poster read the entire article, let alone whole compilation.

But of course there's a diminishing returns on rebuttal  comments equal to how widely known the error is. The bigger the error, the more likely everyone will see it, which increases the speed at which corrective comments fly. Little or obscure error in a field no one else is familiar with, few people will notice it, longer it can take for either someone (who knows, but missed it, hadn't gotten there yet, etc.) or someone who's researching the facts (like Snopes would) to point it out...and they may do so after "you've" downloaded the book.

You know, there's always been the caveat for the last 22 years that because the in-character material is written by characters who may or may not know everything, they could be wrong.

Just to refresh your memories: We are talking about maps, not in-character writing.

Hehe, the maps could be drawn by an in-game cartographer . That's how the Forgotten Realms first argued their maps way back in first edition FR...that the maps were less accurate the further out from the Dalelands one went because "our" cartographers have less accurate information. Or maybe in SR an AI is messing with the satellite map overlays

[Critias]

Or it could just be a mistake.  It happens.  *shrugs*  Let's not jump through hoops when Occam's Razor tells us something is a plain old fuck up.

[Fizzygoo]

I'm pretty sure it's a mistake (but not positive, which was my motive to post on it in the first place, a just in case I've missed something kind of thing), and yeah, totally, happens (s/he who writes/edits multiple works to always produce unerring published documents may cast the first Thor shot, hehe, or at least that's my personal stance/view on errors, mistakes, etc).

I just have the following issues: I'm long winded, I like to talk, and sometimes hoops are fun (for me)...especially when razors are involved. But please don't take my rambling as attempting to fit a square peg to a round hole...well, not a serious attempt at the fit...just a playing around to see where things can match up, and don't.