[Rapier]

Being seduced by the karmagen method (because I wanted to have an initiated toon) I ran the numbers on a toon I had created using BP and converted it to karma gen by curiosity. I was chilled by the difference between the 750 Karma and what I actually came up with.

He was human so that might have been the source of the difference but just on attributes a 5,5,5,5,5,1,1,1 = 200 bp (half of the BP) the same attrubutes from karmagen can up to 210 = (5 * sum(6+9+12+15)) out of a 750 budjet...

So either the 750 is a typo or for human and lower stats metatypes, Karmagen will give "stronger" characters.

Your thoughts? (or is there something I dont get?)

Thanks

[Thermo]

The real benefit is in the skill costs. To get a skill of 6, you're looking at (4+4+6+8+10+12) = 44 karma points. Compare that to the BP cost of 24 and you can see that the difference is not much. A level 4 skill costs (4+4+6+8) = 22 karma points, as compared to 16 BP's.

The best example is that to get a skill level of 2, you're looking at (4+4) = 8 karma, as compared to 8 BP's. Much better deal with karma.

Karma gen doesn't work very well for most metas, especially orks and trolls. Unless you want a troll with the racial minimum body and strength. And who wants that??

[Rapier]

Thanks,

Thermo, are you sure on your skill cost calculations?

New active skill = 4
Rating 2 = 4
Rating 3 = 6
Rating 4 = 8
Rating 5 = 10
Rating 6 = 12
Total = 44 and not 84?

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

It looks like you're still using (new rating) x3 for attributes.  Did the Runner's Companion ever see an errata of that cost, given the change in SR4A to x5?

[Thermo]

Thanks,

Thermo, are you sure on your skill cost calculations?

New active skill = 4
Rating 2 = 4
Rating 3 = 6
Rating 4 = 8
Rating 5 = 10
Rating 6 = 12
Total = 44 and not 84?

yeah, you're right, I goofed on the point totals, original post has been adjusted.

[Phylos Fett]

Some will argue that your Special Attributes (Edge, Magic, Resonance) form part of the Attribute limit in the Karma CharGen system.

Other than that, if you build a Human, and don't have any really high Attributes and Skills, you can get quite a solid build.

[Crash_00]

It looks like you're still using (new rating) x3 for attributes.  Did the Runner's Companion ever see an errata of that cost, given the change in SR4A to x5?

As usual, only in the German versions I believe.

Using the Runner Companion Karma Gen makes very, very powerful humans starting out, but their are a few things to note.

A.) You don't get free knowledge skill points. I force my players to have at least 18 ranks worth of knowledge skills if we play with Karma Gen, but I notice that since the players are having to pay for them, they never take fluff knowledge skills. Its always strictly business knowledge skills.

B.) Contacts are 2 * (Connection + Loyalty) in Karma Gen. Its pretty clear, but one of the most overlooked things I've noticed.

C.) If you're using SR4A, the Karma Gen system doesn't completely do what it was intended to do unless you use the German Version. Because the karma cost for raising attributes was changed in SR4A (new rank * 5), karma being used to build the character IS different to a degree than the karma they get awarded later. the difference obviously isn't as big as the build point vs. karma difference, but it is there.

As for Humans, using karma gen from RC you can spend up to half your points +  2* build point cost of your metatype for attributes. Humans are free, so they can spend up to 375 of their karma on attributes. Keep in mind that you can only have one attribute at maximum value and the karma gen system doesn't split special attributes from the limitation like the build point system does.

However, a human character can come out of character creation like this
Math: 8*(6+9+12+15) = 336 + 9 + 12 +15 = 372
This will give the human a 5 in Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, Charisma, Intuition, Logic, Willpower, and Edge starting out.

Skills are generally cheaper as well:
Totals
1 = 4 Karma / 4 Build points
2 = 8 Karma/ 8 Build points
3 = 14 Karma/12 Build points
4 = 22 Karma/16 Build points
5 = 32 Karma/20 Build points
6=  44 Karma/24 Build points

If you use the standard BP = 2 Karma that seems to be common, its clear that even a six is a better deal than in BP creation, but lower skill levels are the one that really have become cheaper. Ones and Twos are half the effective cost.

[Thermo]

It looks like you're still using (new rating) x3 for attributes.  Did the Runner's Companion ever see an errata of that cost, given the change in SR4A to x5?

I don't think I've seen an errata for that book, but you're 100% correct that it should be adjusted to match up with the SR4A rule on Karma advancement.

That'd make your example of 5,5,5,5,5,1,1,1 cost (10+15+20+25) = 70 for each of the upgraded attributes for a total of 350 karma points. Compared to 200 BP, that's pretty similar.

Here's one of the big differences; if you went with 4,4,4,4,3,3,3,3 you'd be spending (10+15+20)*4+(10+15)*4 = 180+100 = 280 karma points, compared to the same 200 BP's. That's a good deal.

Now build a 200 BP troll. 9,4,5,9,3,1,1,4. The karma cost would be:
(30+35+40+45) = 150
(10+15+20) = 45
(10+15+20+25) = 70
(30+35+40+45) = 150
(10+15) = 25
0
0
(10+15+20) = 45

total karma cost = 485
That's a crappy deal 

[Preacher]

Some will argue that your Special Attributes (Edge, Magic, Resonance) form part of the Attribute limit in the Karma CharGen system.

It does by the Karma rules, mostly because Ancient History has a relatively poor grasp of the rules.  He also makes you pay for every Knowledge Skill you take, too.  There was at least one other oddity in it, but I can't remember it off the top of my head...

But yeah, despite the silliness of things like that, I much prefer that system, too.  Mostly because I like having well-rounded characters with a lot of low to moderate level skills, both Active and Knowledge.  I always hated it that you had these crazy skill monkeys in the BP system, but they only ever knew anything of import about 3, maybe 4, topics.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

It looks like you're still using (new rating) x3 for attributes.  Did the Runner's Companion ever see an errata of that cost, given the change in SR4A to x5?

As usual, only in the German versions I believe.

Looks like it's time to take a refresher course in German.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Building an elf isn't too painful in the Karma Gen system, either.  I prefer it, simply because of the slightly greater control -- and the fact that exactly because of that cost, it's almost shoot-yourself-in-the-head stupid to NOT punch your skills/attributes as high as you possibly can before getting out of character generation.  Why bother kicking in average attributes -- 3's down the line cost (2 x 10 x 8 =) 160 out of your 200 starting points -- when the same amounts will get you four max-minus-1 5's (or as appropriate for your metatype), with 40 points to fill in where you really suck.

Of course, going by SR 1-3, a 3 was normal human -- while taking that attribute and converting it into SR4 means that 2 should be the new 'normal human' rating.

Instead of being almost forced to do this craziness for the efficiency at game start -- and hope that you won't get caught out on your 'dump stats' during your first few runs -- the BeCKS, err, Karma Build system simply says, 'you're going to be paying this much for it no matter when you buy it', thereby letting you build more coherently, sanely, and organically.

[Makki]

yes, 750 karma gives you more than 400 BP. But a group can always adjust. We e.g. use 700 karma + free knowledge.
The preference is actually more like 650 karma.

min/max possibilty of BP is just a knockout argument for me.

[Glyph]

Part of why Karmagen encourages more well-rounded characters is that, frankly, it works out to more points than 400 Build Points - so you are less likely to have dump stats of 1, or to be missing skills that are important but not part of your core concept.  Original Karmagen characters are much more than 400 BP.  The German errata Karmagen makes specialists who are a bit above 400 Build Points, or generalists who are significantly above 400 Build Points.

It is not simply having more points to play with, though.  While you can still comfortably specialize, the exponential (rather than flat) increase in cost makes you ask yourself if you really need it.  For example, giving a human an Attribute of 5 costs the same as buying an Attribute of 4 and an Attribute of 3.  Likewise, a skill of 6 costs the same as two skills of 4.

[Phylos Fett]

I find it quite amusing that originally Karma available for CharGen (750 Karma) was actually a mistake (it was supposed to be 600 Karma), and that it now balances a bit better with the increase in Attribute costs.

[Valnar]

Also, when you try to make a free spirit you are pretty much told by the system to use f-ing Karma Gen. 250 BP vs 0 Karma is an absolute deal breaker.