[Zilfer]

That's the impression I was getting from some of their posts which I didn't agree with. When the mage was brought up i thought "Well if he's hiding from people in real life wouldn't he be just as stealty in Astral?" I mean he may not know there's a mage patrolling but he's still trying to be sneaky. *shrugs*

From what most of the posts are saying about infiltration it seems that they limit it to "Get past someone without being seen skill." which then have limited use.... o.O'

If they had to infiltrate through a door watched by a camera and they rolled well I would have seen they noticed a vent (cheesey and unrealistic but hey it works) that goes around the door without being seen by the camera.  Or maybe it's a moving camera so they slip past while it's moving. (shrugs) anyways don't think it should be an automatic fail.

[ARC]

I was actually thinking about laser beams recessed into walls so that they don't see the emitters, pressure plates hidden in the floor, monowire tripwires, hidden cameras, dead falls triggered by ope ning doors without proper authorization.  Just because they might think things are there doesn't mean that they will always expect them and if they do expect them you need to change up your trap triggers.

[Fizzygoo]

They can "dodge" them.  But they have to know they are there.

I wouldn't quite say that.  That sets a precedence that the player must know about each and every possible thing that could percieve him/her in order to infiltrate successfully.  That makes stealth unreasonably difficult, as well as somewhat unrealistic.

I disagree, politely, with you here. It's what the whole legwork phase of a run is for. There can be the; "Did you get the security schematics from the contractors about that facility?" "Yeah, chummer, the room before our target is a laser sensor matrix, vertically and horizontally, with only a two millimeter gap between the lattice work." "Frag, we better get our hacker to take that out." Or the; "Hey, GM, this is the last room before our target, do I see anything?" (rolling perception) "Nope, looks all clear." "Okay, well to be safe, I'll use Infiltration." GM to him/herself, "well, he can't squeeze himself into a <2 mm spaghetti strand so the alarms go off."

Inflitration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors. (SR4A, 124)

Then

Technical security includes alarms, sensors, scanners, locks, and automated systems. (SR4A, 261, original emphasis)

Trip beams are...perimeter alarms. Noticing [them] requires a Perception + Intuition (2) Test for visible beams, or a threshold of 3 for infrared beams. ... Squeezing past a trip beam maze requires an Agility + Reaction Test against a gamemaster-determined threshold. (SR4A, 261)

If you look through the whole Technical Security section (SR4A, 261-264) it modifies, clarifies, and specifies how Infiltration is used under certain conditions. Like not at all for trip beams or, as for motion sensors;

Defeating a motion sensor requires that characters move very slowly through the field, one half-meter per Combat Turn, and succeeding in an Infiltration + Agility (3) Test. (SR4A, 261, my emphasis)

So if a player doesn't know that the motion sensors are there and says, "hey, I'm going to use Infiltration to move across this room" and then proceeds to move 5 meters in the first Combat Turn...no matter what they roll on their Infiltration test, even 50 hits...they're getting picked up by the sensors.

Knowing is half the run.

You don't need to know where a camera is to know that there probably is one and you should keep to the shadows.  You don't need to know where each guard is to know to keep out of open areas and stay low to the ground, etc.  And you don't need to spot a laser trip beam to assume that there might be one.  Of course, knowing helps improve your task, but not knowing doesn't make the player worse at sneaking.  That would be applying a modifier incorrectly (a penalty to player when it should be bonus to observer).

But...the cameras could have night vision or thermographic sensors linked to motion detection software...not knowing gets you geeked. But there could be a guard leaning against the wall just around the corner and you'll both have to roll surprise and perceptions...not knowing where the guards are gets you geeked. And sure you can assume there's a beam, but where do you duck, step over, slide under, jump over it, is it a meter into the room and a meter off the ground, two and one, one and two, 2.72 and 3.14?...not knowing gets you geeked.

If the runners didn't check the security out and find out where these things are then they're walking right into it. Of course the GM should, through varying levels of difficulty, make this information available to the characters with proper legwork on their part.

This becomes an extremely important point when you consider astral observers.  If you have the mentality that you must be aware of something to sneak by it, then any mundane automatically fails against an astral observer.  That's somewhat absurd if you ask me, as it renders an entire character concept ineffectual and useless.  The Astral observer should of course receive a good bonus for aura on shadow contrast, and possibly negative background count (low life area such as a city would have a -1 Background Count that becomes a +1 Astral Visibility modifier, check SM for the chart), likely around +3 to +5 dice on average but is very situational.

This is why A ) mages are rare and B ) kill mages first...before they get to work. A mundane trying to sneak down a sterilized hallway where an astrally projecting mage is hanging out at the other end...game over. It would be like not noticing a dancing Christmas tree coming down the hall way. But a facility that can have mages hanging out 24/7 at the end of hallways is, well, not realistic (unless we're talking big big budget for funding, like Lofwyr's deltaclinic for his drop bear army). It's then left up to watchers and other spirits which are either very unreliable or expensive to maintain.

But something to consider is a perception bonus for superior positioning.  A vantage point over a bottleneck, a camera in a good place, or something like placing a guard at the end of a narrow hallway that gives the guard a superior view of that hallway.  This bonus could be offset by the player making their own perception check to notice the difficulty and plan around it, giving them a similar bonus or taking away the NPC's bonus depending on what they do.

Agreed

Also, the rules state that some things are just plain obvious and do not require a perception check to be made.  An example could be a camera that watches a door and does not pan.  If the infiltrator tries to use that door they will be seen, it's just impossible to do it without being seen.

Agreed. Sneak up on a guy, sure. Palm his pistol with out him knowing, okay. Firing the gun at his friend (or just firing it for that matter), silenced/suppressed or not...nope. If the guards within 10 meters, he/she'll know exactly where it came from and look. Lots of videos on youtube of people firing silenced/suppressed weapons (some even with attractive members of the gender you might be excited about, you choose the adventure ) they're definitely far from silent. (Of course, with cinematic rules, hell, why not ).

I think it's this last situation that ARC was speaking about, I just don't want anyone coming away from this discussion thinking that a infiltrator must know where each and every opposed observer (NPC, sensor, or otherwise) is in order to infiltrate successfully.

And I, politely (at least my intent has to come across as polite), disagree for the reasons above. And I would go so far as to say that a player must designate who or what they are trying to sneak past before they roll Infiltration. You have to perceive where the eyes are, and aren't, in order to know how to effectively avoid them, meat-body or otherwise. As a completely absurd and, hopefully, funny example...ever watch a movie with a guy sneaking around. Despite all his best efforts, even if the actor studied with ninjas for a decade on how to be sneaky, why does the audience always see him?

[ARC]

And sometimes, the group has no time to do legwork.  They have to keep an eye out while breaking in for it.  Let them sweat a little.

[Fizzygoo]

Or make them sweat a lot, rukin'shmukin'good'fer'nuthin' players, I tell you!

Yeah, if they don't have time for legwork, that's where the hacker/technomancer comes in to infiltration the system and turn the physical security sensors off...or get fragged by the IC.

[Mason]

Everyone, particularly tzizimine and fizzygoo, you have shown me many places where my use of security fails horribly. I thank you and will shortly properly challenge this infiltrator properly in his own specialty AND outside it.

[Fizzygoo]

I'm all for challenge, especially if it makes a great story. Never want to outright punish a player for building something that works great, and it's fun to give them several "average" situations that they can cake walk through just to see the Horrors in their eyes when the bugs start coming through the walls...for the challenge of course.

I never try to kill my players' characters...they do that just fine on their own.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

That's the impression I was getting from some of their posts which I didn't agree with. When the mage was brought up i thought "Well if he's hiding from people in real life wouldn't he be just as stealty in Astral?" I mean he may not know there's a mage patrolling but he's still trying to be sneaky. *shrugs*

From what most of the posts are saying about infiltration it seems that they limit it to "Get past someone without being seen skill." which then have limited use.... o.O'

If they had to infiltrate through a door watched by a camera and they rolled well I would have seen they noticed a vent (cheesey and unrealistic but hey it works) that goes around the door without being seen by the camera.  Or maybe it's a moving camera so they slip past while it's moving. (shrugs) anyways don't think it should be an automatic fail.

Fizzygoo comments essentially upon all these points, and in pretty much all of them, I agree with him.  SR4 does have granulation; it does have specific things you can (or must) watch out for.  And, as he points out, it has legwork.  I would go so far as to say that the core concept of Shadowrun in all its editions is this:

What you don't know can hurt you -- so find out.

There are all those neat gadgets that have been mentioned; monowire and cameras and pressure pads and movement sensors &c.  If you don't know that they're there, you are busted -- and, in the case of monowire, injured to boot.  From an astral viewpoint, being sneakery in the flesh means that you are having very many stealthy thoughts.  It doesn't mean that you mystically vanish in the astral; there are spells and adept abilities for that, IIRC.  A sneaking character is not invisible on the astral; you might be sneaking to beat the dragon, but on the astral you're still just there, and someone in the same area as you is going to spot you right away, just as if you were 'sneaking' through a bare hall without your equipment, and a guy is staring right at you.

Mason's problem is that his player is One Power Wondering his way through massive adventures -- in short, Zilfer, he's been running things exactly the way you look at it.  And it's getting annoying, because he's blowing through everything.  An intrusion is, even now, an operation that requires multiple different skills to succeed.  Oh, you can roll just infiltration to avoid detection from the various sensors and people, but sometimes you'll need Hardware (to get through that maglock).  I said it before and I say it again: the door doesn't care how sneaky you are, it's gonna stay locked anyhow.

SR skills are limited, of necessity and of practicality.  Used to be we had Sorcery, Conjuring, and Alchemy; now Sorcery and Conjuring (and Computers, and Electronics, and yes even Stealth) are broken up into full complete skills.  You cannot shoot a bow with your Pistols skill; you cannot shadow someone with your Infiltration skill.  You cannot do a lot of things with your infiltration skill.

And knowing things is essential in Shadowrun.  That's the point.  You might be able to sneak up to Lofwyr and steal Saeder-Krupp from him, but if you don't know the security setup, then the GM has every right to make you roll a drekload of perception checks to spot the various security measures taken against people Just Like You.  Not knowing it's there -- whether specifically ('Thermographic camera in that corner') or generally ('Okay, these are security schematics of the 33rd and 34th floor, up to date as of four weeks ago...') -- means the GM has every right to let you get halfway through the intrusion and let you turn a corner into six AK-97 muzzles.  That track you.  And shoot very accurately if you try to get away.

Being generic lets the GM gloss over a lot of specifics; 'you get the security details'.  Being specific means the GM gets to tell you about items A through F, but not item G, which got put in just last week.

Zilfer, Tagz -- not meaning to offend, but you guys are clearly failing to understand that Mason is looking for stuff to challenge this guy, both player AND character.  There are huge numbers of examples in the RAW, and I'd say the RAI is even more prickly about this sort of thing.  After all, almost every 'run involves infiltration at one point or another ...

[Fizzygoo]

What you don't know can hurt you -- so find out.

Exactly

From an astral viewpoint, being sneakery in the flesh means that you are having very many stealthy thoughts.  It doesn't mean that you mystically vanish in the astral; there are spells and adept abilities for that, IIRC.  A sneaking character is not invisible on the astral; you might be sneaking to beat the dragon, but on the astral you're still just there, and someone in the same area as you is going to spot you right away, just as if you were 'sneaking' through a bare hall without your equipment, and a guy is staring right at you.

Exactly...which is why you have your mage ride astral shotgun, so if an astral perceiving or projecting mage (or a spirit) is there, your mage can deal with him/her (if your team hasn't already back at the corp mage's apartment two hours ago).

An intrusion is, even now, an operation that requires multiple different skills to succeed.  Oh, you can roll just infiltration to avoid detection from the various sensors and people, but sometimes you'll need Hardware (to get through that maglock).  I said it before and I say it again: the door doesn't care how sneaky you are, it's gonna stay locked anyhow.

Um...exactly? (I'm like a broken record here, hehe). It's Shadowrun, not Infiltration-run. There's all these aspects that come in to play, sammies, adepts, riggers, faces, mages, etc. Overlapping fabrics in a tapestry of crime. If Infiltration was the end all be all, then every character could just max out on Infiltration + Agility (and everyone would be a dandelion eater to moccasin, er boot) and every run would become a cake walk. Mmmm cake

You cannot do a lot of things with your infiltration skill.

But you can be sneaky (Sorry Ouroboros, I was agreeing with you too much so I felt the need to pretend to be argumentative with you here ).

And knowing things is essential in Shadowrun.  That's the point.  You might be able to sneak up to Lofwyr and steal Saeder-Krupp from him, but if you don't know the security setup, then the GM has every right to make you roll a drekload of perception checks to spot the various security measures taken against people Just Like You.  Not knowing it's there -- whether specifically ('Thermographic camera in that corner') or generally ('Okay, these are security schematics of the 33rd and 34th floor, up to date as of four weeks ago...') -- means the GM has every right to let you get halfway through the intrusion and let you turn a corner into six AK-97 muzzles.  That track you.  And shoot very accurately if you try to get away.

Mmmmm, players having their characters try and sneak up on Lofwyr, easy night for the GM, "Okay, kids, that was quick. So, what are your new characters going to be?"

Being generic lets the GM gloss over a lot of specifics; 'you get the security details'.  Being specific means the GM gets to tell you about items A through F, but not item G, which got put in just last week.

On this note, it's amazing when I present to my players various bits of information like this and they take it in and then come up with a plan that completely bypasses my hidden threats. It's one of the reasons why specifics are fun, the players surprise you and you have to think on your feet just as much as they do. Ahhhh role-playing games, how I love thee.

[tzizimine]

I agre with all that was stated about knowledge of your target. That has always been half the fun. It's also good to remember that sometimes being stealthy isn't about Infiltration. Following someone through a mall = Shadowing. Looking like you belong somewhere, like a delivery guy = Etiquette.


Lastly, to quote NCIS, there are two ways of following someone. They don't notice you or they notice ONLY you.

[Mason]

Unfortunately, he HAS Electronics, and Disguise, and Shadowing, and Palming, and Etiquette. Also, when I make a place really hard to get into, he will just walk into the facility, knocks a guard out/kill him, hide the body, take his uniform, get 10 hits to disguise himself as an employee, then walks around the facility like he owns the place. His perception is through the roof with the Adept power, too, I think.

However, the thread did what i wanted. It inspired me with some countermeasures and some common sense that evaded me which should rectify my problems. Thanks, all

[tzizimine]

The other thing that comes to mind... Is the 'problem' that the player is being too stealthy (because it seems like he is built specifically for stealth) or that his being stealthy is letting the group through challenges for all? I ask because one thing that I use to foster inter-player teamwork is scenarios where 2+ people have to be good at a specific area because the 'main guy' can't be in two places at once.


For example, doing a blackmail / con job on Mr. Cozi from Food Fight 4.0, the face (great social, terrible stealth) is convincing Mr. Cozi that his mafia 'friends' are really out to kill him, while the physad and street sam (decent stealth, terrible social) to an intentionally bad job of sneaking into his place to set up a bomb. Because of the timing and needing Mr. Cozi to feel that he is not being fooled, the face has to be immediately available whenever needed.

[Phylos Fett]

Also, when I make a place really hard to get into, he will just walk into the facility, knocks a guard out/kill him, hide the body, take his uniform, get 10 hits to disguise himself as an employee, then walks around the facility like he owns the place.

I've often wondered why the whole "dress up as a guard" thing should work. Most of the places I've worked at, you hang out with the people on that shift before you start the shift, as you do same time every day/week/etc. If there's anyone new starting work, generally you hear about well in advance, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing major, just something I've often wondered about...

[ARC]

Also, when I make a place really hard to get into, he will just walk into the facility, knocks a guard out/kill him, hide the body, take his uniform, get 10 hits to disguise himself as an employee, then walks around the facility like he owns the place.

I've often wondered why the whole "dress up as a guard" thing should work. Most of the places I've worked at, you hang out with the people on that shift before you start the shift, as you do same time every day/week/etc. If there's anyone new starting work, generally you hear about well in advance, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing major, just something I've often wondered about...

In all honesty it should only work with people that are not security.  Eventually it will catch on.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I've often wondered why the whole "dress up as a guard" thing should work. Most of the places I've worked at, you hang out with the people on that shift before you start the shift, as you do same time every day/week/etc. If there's anyone new starting work, generally you hear about well in advance, etc., etc., etc.. Nothing major, just something I've often wondered about...

In all honesty it should only work with people that are not security.  Eventually it will catch on.

Even then it shouldn't.  My spouse works at the CDC, and she knows at least half a dozen of the guards by face and, in some cases, name -- and vice-versa.  You can Con your way past that for a little bit by saying, 'Oh, I just got transferred in from ... uh ... Germany!!' or something, but the next guard the person sees is going to hear 'hey, how's that new guy working out?'

[ Divers Alarums. ]