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First time GM -- Couple questions

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Fizzygoo

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« Reply #15 on: <11-01-11/1913:19> »
Along the lines of what rasmusnicolaj just posted I usually let the players make tweaks to the character (with GM approval) for two or three sessions especially this last time since I had several first time or very limited experience players and I wanted to be sure they didn't feel like they messed everything up and were "stuck" with something.
It has worked out great and everyone seems to be really enjoying the game. A couple players tweak a few small things, but no one really felt they needed to do any big changes. Mainly switching around a bit of gear, a skill or two type things.

I do the same thing whenever I have new players. Since we use all of the SR4 materials, it can be overwhelming. Keeping that in mind and being flexible can be a great way to keep your players invested and happy with their characters.

Here, here (where? here. ah, k, thnxs).

So important, especially for new players. But I use this "rule" at the start of any campaign regardless of game system as there are both game mechanics reasons for why characters need to be tweaked as well as role-playing reasons.

In my current campaign I only allowed the use of the core book for character creation and then I didn't award karma until after the 3rd run (they got the full 3 runs' worth of karma though) but allowed the players to make changes (within the 400BP build) as they saw fit at the end of every session (still only using SR4A). Once karma was awarded then things clamp down on tweaking characters but they now have karma and the other books are open to them.

The foreseeable downside to this is "new characters and player jealousy" where if a PC dies and the player makes a new one, they will have access to all the other books and other players could be grumpy about not having had access to those qualities, gear, etc. I'll bridge that cross when I get to it...if it ever comes up.

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TheHug

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« Reply #16 on: <11-03-11/0112:43> »
You guys are awesome. Gonna incorporate as much as I can and just go for it this weekend, if my guys can get together. I've spent a long time staring at rules now and it seems the only way to really understand in depth is to play it out and see how they work in action. I'm sure I will have more questions (Technomancers seem to be quite hazy), but I'll direct them to more specific posts.

Thanks!

Zilfer

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« Reply #17 on: <11-03-11/1415:56> »
You guys are awesome. Gonna incorporate as much as I can and just go for it this weekend, if my guys can get together. I've spent a long time staring at rules now and it seems the only way to really understand in depth is to play it out and see how they work in action. I'm sure I will have more questions (Technomancers seem to be quite hazy), but I'll direct them to more specific posts.

Thanks!

No worries, Technomancers are still hazy to me as well. I've been playing for a few months too! XD

I really need to get a good grasp on the hacking here soon.... xD
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Argent

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« Reply #18 on: <11-03-11/2338:02> »
You guys are awesome. Gonna incorporate as much as I can and just go for it this weekend, if my guys can get together. I've spent a long time staring at rules now and it seems the only way to really understand in depth is to play it out and see how they work in action. I'm sure I will have more questions (Technomancers seem to be quite hazy), but I'll direct them to more specific posts.

Thanks!

Just glad we can help out. Feel free to ask more questions as they arise.
Running the shadows since 1989.

TheHug

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« Reply #19 on: <11-05-11/2146:26> »
Ran a bit of a session today!

Had three players, two of whom have never done RPG's, and one of whom I play D&D with. Neither of us had played SR before, so it was a little interesting. We got a little weighed down in character creation (I totally forgot to make them pay for fake SINs and licences for all that firepower), and only got to get a couple hours into the adventure I wrote, but they had a good time I think.

I definitely over-corrected in trying not to make the enemies for the first run too hard. We had to stop right when they reached the kind of climactic battle sequence, but at the current moment the magician has a force 5 spirit of Air busting through the door of a room with 3 gangers with light pistols and clubs, and the gang leader, who is a little buffer and packs an AK. So yeah, they're about to wipe the floor with my enemies. Given that the other two characters are a tanked out orc with some grenades and an FN HAR  and aluminum bones and dermal plating  and, and a god gunsliger with a minor in hacking, I'd say I should definitely up the ante next run.

There's a huge discussion going on already in the rules section about whether or not magicians are "unbalanced", I don't want to get into all that, but I do want to ask some questions about how you all deal with the more crazy things Magicians can do.

Astral Projection: I have no magical enemies/obstacles in my first scenario. The magician leaves his body in the car for a minute, flies around inside the gang hideout, and comes back knowing the layout and where all the enemies and the objective are. This seems kosher rules-wise, but how do y'all generally keep magicians from flying around astrally and telling the team what's up?

Spirits: I was totally unprepared for spirits. I checked out the rules, was like "yeah sure" and then we're playing and the runners pretty much have an additional character of exceptional ability all at once. (Aforementioned force 5 Air spirit). I'm sure there is a lot on this subject, but how do you limit what counts as a "service"? Is "go in that room and kill everyone" or is "use your elemental attack on that guy" a single serivce? I want to think the latter, because it will make spirits powerful, but more limited, but I'm not sure.


Phylos Fett

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« Reply #20 on: <11-06-11/0136:49> »
Don't be afraid to alter your NPCs on the fly. If you created the adventure before the players created their characters, don't be afraid to make the 3 gangers into 6, the light pistols into machine pistols, or SMGs, and the clubs into stun batons, etc. If you think they are light on armor throw some FFBA on them. Unless you are into an organic campaign, and feel the characters should wipe the floor with them. It'll probably take you a bit to get your power levels right, anyway, and I'm sure your players will understand.

Astral Projection - the best way to mess with this is wards, spirits, awakened opposition and paracritters.

Walks Through Walls

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« Reply #21 on: <11-06-11/0727:02> »
Phylos Fett is right. I have been playing and GMing for quite a while and still have occasions where I adjust the power level on the fly. I want the players to be challenged so I make the power fairly high and then adjust if I need to (unless the players came up with a great plan that they should be rewarded for by making it easy.)

With astral projection all of Phylos Fett's ideas are good ones, and I agree with them all. Wards and spirits patrolling are cheap so even if the group the team is against doesn't have a mage they could run into them. Ohter possibilities are things like glomoss or other awakened defenses. Street magic has a section that talks about these.

With the spirit both of your examples are a single service. It depends on wording, and how the spirit might interpret what is said. If the mage is abusing it and/or abusing the spirit itself (for example sending it on a death mission) then don't be afraid to have it try and twist what its "orders" are. Remember that telling it to do anything is a service so if you tell the spirit open the door for me that is a service too.
Also keep in mind that Spirits cannot interact with technology so opening a regular door would be easy for it, but it wouldn't be able to open a maglocked door (unless it melted the door or some such). The spirit wouldn't be able to hunt for the computer terminal for the group either because of this for example. Also for a spirit to interact with the physical world they have to manifest, and a manifested spirit walking around will attract attention.

Hope this all helps
"Walking through walls isn't tough..... if you know where the doors are."
"It's not being seen that is the trick."

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Phylos Fett

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« Reply #22 on: <11-06-11/0806:23> »
Phylos Fett is right. *snip* all of Phylos Fett's ideas are good ones, and I agree with them all.

Well, I can't argue with that...

Argent

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« Reply #23 on: <11-06-11/0844:45> »
Something else you can add to make magic use harder is up the background count of the location they are in. And yes Fett's suggestions are all good as well.   :)

EDIT: Regarding magic use in general, drain is going to usually be the factor limiting what the mage can/wants to do. If he wants to fry that gang boss with a overcast force 10 manabolt, he can attempt it. However he is gonna deal with physical damaging drain that might put him out of the fight as well. Is he willing to make that kind of sacrafice? If so, roll away...
« Last Edit: <11-06-11/0851:26> by Argent »
Running the shadows since 1989.

TheHug

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« Reply #24 on: <11-06-11/0859:09> »
Thanks!

Yeah, coming playing a bit of D&D, my instinct was to make a "level 1" Shadowrun adventure. I'm starting to see there might not be any such thing. It's been pretty much a tutorial level though, too, and I am learning to GM. I think everything would have been a lot slower and would have spent more time flipping through books had I had an intense security network and astral/magical combat. The two guys who have never done RPG's before were halfway unconscious by the time we finished character creation. Plus I'm the only one who has read the rules, and yeah.
 I want to include more stuff for the hacker to do next time, but he'll have to read up on the matrix or else it won't work.  I need to look into designing secure building networks that do cool stuff.

Teknodragon

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« Reply #25 on: <11-06-11/0930:40> »
One thing to consider, re: astral scouting, is the NPCs are not sitting around waiting for the PCs to knock down the door. Sure, the mage just saw them sitting around the holoprojector watching a trid. Five minutes of prep time later, it's a commercial break and one of the gangers goes to pay the beer rent while the others are regaled about the latest, greatest NERPS.

Walkover/walkthrough runs like this are also good for learning the rules. No major issues when someone inevitably forgets something, or discovers a paragraph was mis-read or skipped. When possible, I really enjoy doing a dry run with a character where I don't have the rules down solid, so I can tweak skills, attributes, 'ware, forms, powers, spells, gear... or discover that a given character quirk or appearance is cute... the first time.

Keep on having fun!
Life is short, the night is long, and we still have ammo.

Tagz

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« Reply #26 on: <11-06-11/1536:05> »
Like the others said, adjustments on the fly go a big way.

On balancing magicians/magic, that's a bit tricky.  I wouldn't try to compare what a mage can do vs what a mundane can do.  That's the uncool way to balance things.  Instead, mages have incredible power at their fingertips but more consequences for it's use often times.

Often times a combat spell's damage is compared to a Sam's gun's.  A Sam can get bigger and bigger guns too if they like, the problem with that becomes money and concealment.  A mage seems unbalanced because they can output that same crazy damage without having to buy anything new and conceal-ability isn't an issue... Or is it?  Every spell, focus, spirit leaves an Astral Signature that can be tracked back to the mage, every spell can be observed as it is cast by the noticing magic rules.

Anyhow, my point is that a great deal of balancing magic is not using the rules so much as using the setting and the rules together.  Magic is rare, so it's memorable - witnesses will be more likely to remember a mage's face, clothes, etc, if they've observed him/her making magic or saw a spirit.  Any law enforcement agency worth a damn will bring in a mage of their own to check for astral signatures if they believe magic was involved in whatever they're looking into, records will be kept, etc.  My own game I tend to make things of a magical nature drawn to or at least take notice of other powerful magical occurrences, so toxic spirits might show up and take interest, etc.

A mage is totally unbalanced in terms of a fight alone.  But looking at the bigger picture, they have a lot more ways to be tracked down.  The normal things like DNA evidence (blood from being shot, etc), fingerprints, being caught on camera, all that just like anyone else, but also a whole bunch of things that other characters don't need to worry about.  If a GM neglects these tools, then mages are likely to use as much power as they can.  But if the players know that there are consequences for becoming a "walking talking magic death machine" then they'll have their character play it safer and use more reasonable amounts of power.

Do this and the player will balance their own character by keeping themselves in line, for the same reason a Sam doesn't use a panther assault cannon for every encounter.  They could, but they know they'll get into bigger trouble for it.  If your game is more pink mohawk and doesn't bother with tracking down players too much, then use background counts to your advantage.  Just a general city area should be a -1BC due to pollution and such if I recall correctly.
« Last Edit: <11-06-11/1540:16> by Tagz »

TheHug

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« Reply #27 on: <11-06-11/1951:42> »
The great advice continues!

As I've mentioned before, this particular spellcaster player and I are in a D&D group together, and it's a very different mindset. D&D worlds are places where magic seems to happen every day to everyone, and you can swing a giant axe into someone's face in the street, and if they deserve it (the probably did), no one is going to look twice. Even as he was summoning his force 5 spirit, and calculating its stats, he said "wow, this spirit seems totally unbalanced." Keep in mind I threw them against the weakest enemies in the game just to see how it would go.

I think one of the keys to Shadowrun might be to look at it as a kind of rock paper scissors match between gear, magic and matrix. Each one can do pretty badass stuff when used correctly. Next run I do for these guys will have a place for each to come into effect.   


FastJack

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« Reply #28 on: <11-07-11/0744:22> »
The great advice continues!

As I've mentioned before, this particular spellcaster player and I are in a D&D group together, and it's a very different mindset. D&D worlds are places where magic seems to happen every day to everyone, and you can swing a giant axe into someone's face in the street, and if they deserve it (the probably did), no one is going to look twice. Even as he was summoning his force 5 spirit, and calculating its stats, he said "wow, this spirit seems totally unbalanced." Keep in mind I threw them against the weakest enemies in the game just to see how it would go.

I think one of the keys to Shadowrun might be to look at it as a kind of rock paper scissors match between gear, magic and matrix. Each one can do pretty badass stuff when used correctly. Next run I do for these guys will have a place for each to come into effect.   


Yeah, the spirits can seem unbalanced. However, just remind the player what happens if he critically glitches the Summoning test... ;)

raggedhalo

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« Reply #29 on: <11-09-11/1100:05> »
I make a big deal out of astral magicians' inability to tell the difference between walls and doors, and to read stuff. Plus I really enjoy the planning section of a run, so them finding and using the layout etc. is all good by me.
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