[Zilfer]

I make a big deal out of astral magicians' inability to tell the difference between walls and doors, and to read stuff. Plus I really enjoy the planning section of a run, so them finding and using the layout etc. is all good by me.

Take note however that they can walk through it regardless of it it's a door or a wall, and that they can still 'hear' conversations in the astral realm as if he was there. He could over hear them talking about something. The mundane also have a chance to "sense" someone who passed through them in astral.

[JustADude]

I make a big deal out of astral magicians' inability to tell the difference between walls and doors...

Just because something is dull and grey doesn't mean it loses its shape. The doorknobs/hamdles/pulls, surrounding bezel/frame and the slightgaps and depressions around the edges of any door would still give them away.

[beowulf_of_wa]

i agree that they can't tell the difference tween doors and walls, i also agree that it really doesn't matter as long as the walls not covered in something alive. covered in formerly living matter is something else entirely.

[raggedhalo]

Just because something is dull and grey doesn't mean it loses its shape. The doorknobs/hamdles/pulls, surrounding bezel/frame and the slightgaps and depressions around the edges of any door would still give them away.

But it's all the same colour and texture.  If they spent time closely examining the walls then I'd let them notice these things, but otherwise no.

[JustADude]

Just because something is dull and grey doesn't mean it loses its shape. The doorknobs/hamdles/pulls, surrounding bezel/frame and the slightgaps and depressions around the edges of any door would still give them away.

But it's all the same colour and texture.  If they spent time closely examining the walls then I'd let them notice these things, but otherwise no.

Ever looked at a 3D model of a building that's doesn't have any colors or textures added? I have, thanks to 3D drafting programs I've worked with. Same color and texture doesn't mean same light level, and the raised edges of the bezel and knob, as well as the gaps around the edge, all create areas of highlight and shadow that make the door pretty instantly recognizable even as a grey-skinned outline.

I'm not saying they'd be able to tell the colors, textures, material (well, maybe a wood surface-layer from non-wood, but nothing else and not what's underneath), if its locked, or anything else, just that there's a door-shaped set of features protruding from the wall... well, unless there were no shadows to give depth to the object. Of course, there might not be; I haven't studied the Astral Projection stuff too closely. Still, that's the only reason I can think of that you wouldn't be able to tell a door in a casual look around a room.

I could understand requiring them to burn a Simple Action for "Study in Detail" in combat, but if they're not working in bullet-time (pun intended) it's just plain silly to actually make them declare a search to go "Hmmm, raised rectangle a couple inches thick with a crack along the inner edge and a knobbly bit about waist height alone one side of the panel in the middle. Wow, let me go study this in detail and see if I can figure out what this mysterious feature might be!!"

[Zilfer]

True enough, though one person's comment above makes me have to ask...

can you not pass through wooden doors since it was once living? I thought it had to be actively alive in order not to be able to pass through it, but that leads me to my next confusing part....

can we pass through the aura's of living people? For someone like a mundane to sense something magical just passed through them they can make a perception test of (4) i believe. So is it possible to pass through people living things? Why is that?

[beowulf_of_wa]

i was trying ( and apparently failing) to imply blood splatter on said door

through wood and other formerly alive materials, pass right through.

passing through still alive things, not so much. (not at all, i think)
through an aura? god only knows, being as it's not actually "on" them (or so i recall)

[raggedhalo]

well, unless there were no shadows to give depth to the object. Of course, there might not be; I haven't studied the Astral Projection stuff too closely. Still, that's the only reason I can think of that you wouldn't be able to tell a door in a casual look around a room.

See, that's exactly my understanding - because there's light emanating from almost everything in the astral, there are no shadows as such.  I could well be wrong, of course.

[JustADude]

well, unless there were no shadows to give depth to the object. Of course, there might not be; I haven't studied the Astral Projection stuff too closely. Still, that's the only reason I can think of that you wouldn't be able to tell a door in a casual look around a room.

See, that's exactly my understanding - because there's light emanating from almost everything in the astral, there are no shadows as such.  I could well be wrong, of course.

There would probably still be surfaces of objects that are more or less brightly lit than the others. If not, there's no way to see objects in the middle of a room without some sort of 'living' backdrop between them in the wall... stone pillars along the sides of a tile-walled room, or a bunch of statues in the middle of it, for example. They wouldn't even be able to see where one building ends and the next begins unless they could see between them all the way to the horizon or were very carefully looking at the roof-line.

Basically without any form of shading, color, or texture it's nigh-impossible for anyone to decern anything visually except a big, featureless gray swathe with no way to get any sort of distinction between foreground and background.

[Zilfer]

i was trying ( and apparently failing) to imply blood splatter on said door

through wood and other formerly alive materials, pass right through.

passing through still alive things, not so much. (not at all, i think)
through an aura? god only knows, being as it's not actually "on" them (or so i recall)
[/quote

So blood wouldn't allow you to pass through it? I'm still confused if so, because i'm pretty sure i've read that perception for a mage passing "through" you. I'll look it up a little later and see, but i was wondering how they could go through people but not living plants like Ivy growing all around the building.

[beowulf_of_wa]

SR4A pg 193 bottom left column
Astral Detection
Physical beings may sense when an astral form passes through their
aura. Make a Perception + Intuition (4) Test; apply a +2 dice pool
bonus if the character is Awakened.

[FastJack]

i was trying ( and apparently failing) to imply blood splatter on said door

through wood and other formerly alive materials, pass right through.

passing through still alive things, not so much. (not at all, i think)
through an aura? god only knows, being as it's not actually "on" them (or so i recall)

So blood wouldn't allow you to pass through it? I'm still confused if so, because i'm pretty sure i've read that perception for a mage passing "through" you. I'll look it up a little later and see, but i was wondering how they could go through people but not living plants like Ivy growing all around the building.

Remember, living plants and such don't necessarily prevent the astral form from passing through, just make it more difficult. Many of the Astral Security plants don't prevent the mage from entering, but reaction on the physical plane to alert Security that something passed through (luminescent plants that glow when astral bodies are near).

[beowulf_of_wa]

so,

normal items (walls, desks, etc) is like walking thru smoke
living non-astrally active things (bob the accountant, a pine tree, etc) are bright, and present a barrier to passing right thru, can (on sucessful percep test) sense you passing thru their aura
astrally active beings (magic users, spirits, etc) are tangible and prolly will fight back if you try to pass thru them.

right or just right-ish?

[FastJack]

That's the way I understand it.

Oh, and remember, the planet Earth is an Astrally Active being.

[Zilfer]

i was trying ( and apparently failing) to imply blood splatter on said door

through wood and other formerly alive materials, pass right through.

passing through still alive things, not so much. (not at all, i think)
through an aura? god only knows, being as it's not actually "on" them (or so i recall)

So blood wouldn't allow you to pass through it? I'm still confused if so, because i'm pretty sure i've read that perception for a mage passing "through" you. I'll look it up a little later and see, but i was wondering how they could go through people but not living plants like Ivy growing all around the building.

Remember, living plants and such don't necessarily prevent the astral form from passing through, just make it more difficult. Many of the Astral Security plants don't prevent the mage from entering, but reaction on the physical plane to alert Security that something passed through (luminescent plants that glow when astral bodies are near).

Interesting.... o.O'

I thought you couldn't pass through living things. Glowing plants that's an interesting one as well. XD

Wasn't their like an inwall paste or something that blocked mages from going through as well? o.O'