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First Shadowrun character

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Kaptain O

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« on: <11-02-11/0059:00> »
Wow this game has a ton of options, I put together a version of the generalist from UmaroIV's archetype thread using Chummer.  Tell me what you think.

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Ork
Composure: 9
Judge Intentions: 9
Lift/Carry: 9 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 9
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 6
AGI: 2 (3)
REA: 4 (6)
STR: 3
CHA: 4
INT: 5
LOG: 4
WIL: 5
EDG: 4

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   1.5
Initiative:                9 (11)
IP:                        1 (3)
Matrix Initiative:         11
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     12
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 4
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 4
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 2
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Climbing                   : 1                      Pool: 7
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 2
Computer                   : 1                      Pool: 6
Con                        : 4                      Pool: 11
Cybercombat                : 1                      Pool: 6
Data Search                : 1                      Pool: 6
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 3
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 5
Dodge                      : 0                      Pool: 5
Electronic Warfare         : 1                      Pool: 6
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 2
Etiquette                  : 4                      Pool: 11
First Aid                  : 1                      Pool: 6
Flight                     : 1                      Pool: 7
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Gymnastics                 : 1                      Pool: 7
Hacking                    : 1                      Pool: 6
Hardware                   : 1                      Pool: 6
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 2
Infiltration               : 4                      Pool: 7
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 3
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 3
Leadership                 : 4                      Pool: 11
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 2
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Negotiation                : 4                      Pool: 11
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 5
Perception                 : 1                      Pool: 6
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1                      Pool: 7
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 5
Pistols                    : 5                      Pool: 8
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 5
Running                    : 1                      Pool: 7
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Software                   : 1                      Pool: 6
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Swimming                   : 1                      Pool: 7
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 2
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Unarmed Combat             : 4                      Pool: 7

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Contacts ==

== Qualities ==
Codeblock (Reboot)
Incompetent (Blades)
Low-Light Vision
Media Junkie (Mild)
Scorched (Tech)
Sensitive Neural Structure (Tech)

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Enhanced Protein Exchange, PuSHeD
Obvious Full Arm (BOD 6, AGI 8, STR 3) (Left)
   +Customized Agility Rating 5
   +Enhanced Agility Rating 3
   +Armor Rating 4
   +Cyberarm Gyromount
   +Customized Body Rating 6
Synthacardium Rating 3
Tailored Pheromones Rating 3
Wired Reflexes Rating 2

== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Chemical Protection 6
SecureTech Forearm Guards 0/1
SecureTech Leg and Arm Casings1/1
SecureTech Shin Guards    0/1
SecureTech Vitals Protector1/1
Vashon Island: Steampunk Overcoat3/3
   +Ruthenium Polymer Coating
Vashon Island: Synergist Short Jacket (Ensemble)4/3
   +Nonconductivity 6

== Weapons ==
Morrissey Élan
   +Hidden Gun Arm Slide
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Personalized Grip
   +Smartgun System
   DV: 4P   AP: -   RC: 1
Ruger Thunderbolt w/ Smartgun
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Folding Stock, Powered
   +Personalized Grip
   +Smartgun System
   +Underbarrel Weight
   DV: 5P   AP: -1   RC: 5
Shock Glove
   DV: 5S(e)   AP: -half   RC: 0
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 0
Yamaha Pulsar
   +Underbarrel Weight
   DV: 6S(e)   AP: -half   RC: 1

== Commlink ==
Meta Link (1, 1, 1, 2)
   +Vector Xim
Novatech Airware (5, 5, 5, 3)
   +Iris Orb
   +Customized Interface
   +Optimization (Exploit)
   +Analyze Rating 6 [Copy Protection 6, Ergonomic, Optimization 1, Registration]
   +Browse Rating 6 [Copy Protection 6, Optimization 1, Registration]
   +Command Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Registration]
   +Edit Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Registration]
   +Scan Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Registration]
   +Eurosoft Clavicula [Decrypt 5, Encrypt 5]
   +Disarm Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Registration]
   +Exploit Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Mute, Registration]
   +Sniffer Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Registration]
   +Spoof Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Registration]
   +Stealth Rating 5 [Copy Protection 5, Ergonomic, Registration]
   +Track Rating 3 [Copy Protection 3, Registration]
   +Defuse Rating 3 [Copy Protection 3, Registration]
   +ECCM Rating 3 [Copy Protection 3, Registration]

== Gear ==
Ammo: EX-Explosive Rounds (Hold-Outs) x10
Ammo: EX-Explosive Rounds (Heavy Pistols) x105
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Hold-Outs) x20
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Heavy Pistols) x45
Ammo: Taser Dart (Tasers) x20
Cellular Glove Molder Rating 1
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Vision Magnification
   +Smartlink
   +Flare Compensation
Earbuds Rating 2
   +Skinlink
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Spatial Recognizer
Fake License (Drivers License) Rating 3
Fake License (Firearms) Rating 3
Fake License (Programs) Rating 3
Fake SIN (UCAS) Rating 3
Gecko Tape Gloves
Glasses Rating 3
   +Skinlink
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Image Link
   +Thermographic
Medkit Rating 6
Micro Sensor
   +Skinlink
   +Laser Range Finder
Micro Sensor
   +Skinlink
   +Motion Sensor
Micro Sensor
   +Skinlink
   +Radio Signal Scanner Rating 6
Miniwelder
Optical Tap
Satellite Link
Stealth Tags x20
Tag Eraser

== Vehicles ==
GAZ P-179 (Pickup Truck)
   +Multifuel Engine
   +Smuggling Compartment, Shielded
   +Vehicle Sensor


I ripped off large parts from the Generalist but made some tweaks, also, the combat stats seem to be using my base attributes, is there a way I can have chummer display my robo-arm stats?

KommissarK

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« Reply #1 on: <11-02-11/1049:49> »
While I respect the generalist/jack of all trades idea, I do think taking hacking 1 is bit of a waste. Hacking tends to be something either done in the long term planning, or needs to be done so skillfully on the fly. Both require a "good" hacker.

Also, the agility is way too low (and it does seem like there is an intent to have this character see combat). The arm is a nice idea, but you can't take customized cyberlimb 5 (agility), for a base agility of 2. Customized cyberlimbs are for bringing up the standard cyberlimb up to the characters base attribute (limbs have a base stat of 3, so it can't be customized for agility in this case). Its not a free upgrade to boost the stat up.

Its good to see edge that high on a character, tend to see it downplayed around here too much. Usually there are only 4 rolls a session you need to make, so its good.

The logic and strength are a bit high for a character who doesn't appear to use them. Shock gloves don't add strength to their DV, and logic is actually not used with hacking most of the time. I know the STR is tied to being an Ork, but it might be a reason to consider a different option (Orks are certainly great BP choices, but depending on location, the GM can easily play up anti-Ork prejudice, also, human +1 edge would be awesome on this character, along with a better max charisma for what is already obviously a face character.)

Instead of taking hacking (which is more of a specialist role), you might want to focus on hardware (and its B&E uses), along with a higher infiltration focus, which, with a chameleon suit (or suitable ruthyem polymer coating), becomes doable. You might want other gadgets for detecting security systems and the like.

If you're going a Face route, contacts are a very important decision, and taking none is a red flag. And really, in general, contacts are one of the best things to take at character creation, as cultivating those are solely done through what the GM provides once you get into the game (most anything else is a matter of money, and karma).

Not sure if I saw a lifestyle choice in there, but thats certainly needed unless you plan on sleeping in the truck. In which case, there is the amenties customization. With the right selection, you can actually begin play with a sizable amount of money (which is often a far better way to open doors than a gun, a B&E tool, or an ability to convince a guard).

The armour is fine, but at my table, FFBA and SecurTech is considered pretty heavy cheesing (its basically pure power creep from newer books). FFBA is great for "undetectable armour" on its own, so no reason not to take it. You might want to consider a "real" armour that can make full use of the character's body stat, like say an Armour Jacket. A bit more overt, but it always helps to have one in the back of the truck.

Ammunition and guns - You buy a fake license for a gun, but then buy a forbidden ammo type. Sure, it won't be noticed in a cursory inspection, but that EX-EX ammo is going to be more trouble than its worth, and its expensive. Also, some GMs may not be forgiving with MAD sensors, the Morrisey Elan, and non plastic bullets ("yes, it doesn't pick up the gun, but it does pick up whats inside the gun"). Also, where are your spare magazines? Sure, if you need to fire your weapon that much, you most likely need backup, but loading a single magazine by hand is not something one does in a firefight. This isn't a FPS video game where you say "I reload" and suddenly you put your gun away for a second and moments later pull it out with full ammo.

SINs - Good on the licenses, and having one. But thats your ticket to be able to buy food from places that don't have devil rats behind the shelves. If you only have one, have fun with that street lifestyle in about 2 weeks of running.

Gecko tape gloves, depending on where you are, these are of mixed usefulness. They're cheap enough to not matter really, its more a comment that if you're running the shadows in Seattle, these are really only useful indoors (which is certainly an excellent place to use them to go all Sam Fisher on the guards), due to the rain.

Otherwise, yes, reasonably good generalist. I think with a bit of personality would be useful in a group. Really with the interaction group 4 and the tailored pheronomes, this is more of a face. The big thing is contacts, you need those. I would still recommend lowering the total amount of generalizations, and focus on: 1 Face, 2 B&E, 3 Stealth, 4 Perception, 5 Pistol combat, 6 First Aid, and leave the rest to actual specialists. Hacking is not something one should dabble in, you're more likely to set off an alert and bring in the big guns by accident.
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« Last Edit: <11-02-11/1235:31> by KommissarK »

Kaptain O

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« Reply #2 on: <11-02-11/1243:12> »
SR4A page343 Customised Cyberlimbs "They allow the user to raise their starting Body, Strength, and Agility attributes up to the character's natural attribute maximum".

The STR is high because he's an Orc, Logic is high as I was under the impression that is what hacking went off.

I get free contacts BP (CHAx2) so I didnt flesh those out yet.

I have 1 month low lifestyle in there.

I'll swap out some ammo for "regular ammo" and good point on the spare magazines, it didn't even cross my mind!

I'm going to read the Hacking rules again to try to understand them better and see if I can make some changes!

KommissarK

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« Reply #3 on: <11-02-11/1251:38> »
SR4A page343 Customised Cyberlimbs "They allow the user to raise their starting Body, Strength, and Agility attributes up to the character's natural attribute maximum".

The STR is high because he's an Orc, Logic is high as I was under the impression that is what hacking went off.

I get free contacts BP (CHAx2) so I didnt flesh those out yet.

I have 1 month low lifestyle in there.

I'll swap out some ammo for "regular ammo" and good point on the spare magazines, it didn't even cross my mind!

I'm going to read the Hacking rules again to try to understand them better and see if I can make some changes!

Hacking is skill + program rating.

You got the program, just not the skill. PUsHed helps, in that it gives a bonus to logic linked skills (not logic itself), but 2 in hacking still isn't enough to do anything more than bypass a simple door or camera system. You could do more in VR, but at that point, if you hit Black IC, you're screwed anyway.

While I grant you might be right about the customized cyberlimbs after a strict reading of the rules, it goes against both the fluff description and the example provided in the book. Also, other skills, like infiltration, are still agility linked, and a single arm isn't going to improve your agility for those purposes.

Overall, yeah, you're fine, stretched a bit thin on some things. The big thing is how this character works in a group dynamic. You don't want to step on other players toes with a heavy overlap in their schticks, but you do want to stay useful.
« Last Edit: <11-02-11/1257:55> by KommissarK »

Tsuzua

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« Reply #4 on: <11-02-11/1314:12> »
The Generalist is actually one of the more finicky members of Umaro's archetypes when it comes to modification.  This is because SR really hates generalists and there's a lot of careful min/maxing to make it all work.

If you want to hack, you need to raise your Hacking roll to at least 4.  The Generalist is close to the edge of hacking effectiveness and you can't afford to lose dice.  I'll try to mirror or exceed the Generalist's rolls here.  Drop Cybercombat, it's 2 BP saved.  Otherwise, I would just drop hacking entirely and a more social version of the Ronin or a more combat focused version of the Negotiator.

Being an Ork is a respectable life choice, but requires some work.  You're paying 30 BP (20 BP Ork + 10 BP on edge) for +3 Body and +2 Str which is a good deal.  However your softcap for charisma and logic is 1 fewer which makes it far more meh.  I can see the benefits of being an ork (higher cap on body) being worth 1 die on other tests, but I'm not sure both groups.  Since part of being a generalist is talking to people, I'll keep that and drop the logic skills. 

The Generalist doesn't use a high logic to hack.  The skills he uses that require logic are Hardware and First Aid.  Both are very handy skills.  Hardware is the best way to pwn whatever maglock or other piece of gear that comes your way and First Aid is for healing and has amazing synergy with mages and technomancers.  The idea is that since the Generalist is taking ware that provides bonuses to logic skills anyways, he can also become good at these two useful skills.

As for cyberlimbs, you can customized to your natural attribute maximum, not your regular attribute value (SR4A 343).  I would customize my agility to 6 so that way you get 9 agility with that limb.  Then customize the Body to 8.  With Body Enchancement 3, that'll get you average body of 7. 

You're 1 impact armor short of your cap.  I'm also not sure if clothes from different lines can be worn together without issue as well.  I'm of the opinion you can't.  If you can't, then I'll get a complete Steampunk Line.  If you can, I'll wear half of the armor and leg casings and grab some Synergist slacks to even out all the armor.  Some GMs do hate on FFBA especially full suit FFBA. 

Edit- If you get the 7 body, then you'll need to fit +2/+2 more armor.  My suggestion is gel packs and vitals protector.
« Last Edit: <11-02-11/1340:51> by Tsuzua »

Kaptain O

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« Reply #5 on: <11-02-11/1347:42> »
The ork choice was mainly for flavour, I know they are usually considered one of the better metatypes but you are right the -1 max logic/cha hinders this character more than most and the str bonus is mostly wasted so it would probably be better as a human but it's an orc for "fluff reasons"

One thing I noticed with this character as well as chars my friends were working on and other char ideas I was bouncing around in my head - is the high AGI cyberlimb tacked on to an otherwise combat weak character "too good" at overcoming their weaknesses?

Also, between high body (6) and 4 armour on the cyber limb and the "free" 3 pts of armour from the FFBA this guy has 19 pts of ballistic armour - that seems really high, is there going to be anything/many things that actually do physical damage to him?  and if something actually does do physical damage to him it will probably be enough to oneshot him.  Is that a flaw in the system?  I haven't played other than running food fight with sample chars from the book so I have no idea if I am misjudging but if I am reading the rules correctly the attack would have to do 20P in order to actually count as physical damage right?  anything less counts as stun?

KommissarK

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« Reply #6 on: <11-02-11/1415:52> »
First, theres a long standing debate other whether or not cyberlimb armour (for one area) counts across the whole body. I've seen arguments from how it should be averaged by limb, or only apply on shots to the arm, etc. Personally, I only add it in if I have a character with arms/legs/ and maybe a torso, but really, I just don't use the armor modification, too much of a hassle.

As far as actual damage goes... You got the gist of the rules down, yes. But you don't add body into this, its armour alone, so in your case, its 13 armour I think.. A weapon will need to deal more than 13 damage (or have enough AP to compensate vs. the armour). This can come from the DV of the weapon, or the net hits of the shooter (BF/FA does not work for this). Now, yes, this is alot of damage, but you also resist with armour+body, which is a pretty large pool as well.

I am starting to think the customized cyberlimb system is a bit broken as it is now. It looks like my games have inadvertandly had a house rule in them. Although, to the players benefit, I also house rule that essence cost of a second cyberlimb of the same type of lost limb cost half (that is to say, 2 cyberarms cost 1.5 essence at my table), being that the loss/addition of a natural arm in general is the actual shock to the system, and the addition of a similar type is nowhere near as bad.

Kaptain O

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« Reply #7 on: <11-02-11/1458:57> »
Well the armour itself adds up to 19, the base armour from the clothing ensemble with the FFBA, Overcoat, PPP Items and Cyber arm armour all adding to it.

Another way to look at it is with a Body of 6 I can weap up to 12 armour without penalty, plus 4 from the arm is 16, plus 3 from the FFBA (because it is +6 armour that "counts as" +3).

I know you said FFBA/PPP are kind of cheezy and you play different rules on the cyberlimb armour and you may be right, I have no idea what is balanced/overpowered/cheezy but that's where I get to 19 out of the book.

Katrex

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« Reply #8 on: <11-02-11/1509:21> »
I've been playing with the idea of high body charecters. Tbh 19 balistic is good but its not that good. Your stun track will fill pretty quickly but that stun track overflows in to physical. So yea it keeps you alive and with stimulants you can ignore those modifyers for a while.
Still, dont forget since you arnt wearing full body armor people can call a shot to exposed areas like your neck and ignore all your armor.

This is why with 6 body I would spend 5 points on restricted gear and either get the 15/15 samurai armor for coolness sake, or the 18/16 heavy mil spec armor. Remember full body armor like that is bodyx3 not 2 but can't be combined with other armor.

Dont forget though that is is only 24 damage resist total which is 8 damage reduction. A decent smg with good recoil comp  will hapily doing a good 20 stun damage to you in a pass even after you roll resitance. Or if you are suprised someone duel weilding can happily do 28 stun in in a pass, then if they beat your initiative be prepared to take that allover again.
Shadowrun is dangerous when you don't know what's hapening, high armor has little effect on that.

Now a troll adept with 15 body Full mill spec armor and 10 gell packs has 45 damage resitance dice. The strength is not that in itself but that you can burn edge on that for like 25 damage ruduced when someone full autos with an assault cannon and chose not to dodge, and and instead then kill them all in your next initiative pass

Trust me when i say, 6 body is far from invincible

Kaptain O

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« Reply #9 on: <11-02-11/1641:29> »
the 5 point quality for restricted gear is in Runners Companion right?

I don't have any access to that at the moment =(

Do I need to take that quality to get a restricted item???

KommissarK

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« Reply #10 on: <11-02-11/1703:18> »
It lets you get a single item up to 20F. This generally should be run by a GM first, as there are several campaign cracking items that intrepid Shadowrunners may get their grimy mits on. Heres lookin at you MRSI system.

Kaptain O

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« Reply #11 on: <11-02-11/1740:46> »
Nope just wanted to make sure I didn't need it to take any "R" item.

So is the consensus that the custom cyber-arm being bolted on to an otherwise combat poor character to give him 1 "good arm" to shoot/stab with 9 AGI is legit and balanced or that it is unbalanced?

UmaroVI

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« Reply #12 on: <11-02-11/2005:19> »
There's no consensus; opinions vary widely. Some people think it's fine. Some don't. Here's what I had to say earlier on the subject:

"With regards to cyberarms versus alternatives:

There are indeed several effective ways to make a weapon-focused character involving different tradeoffs.

The single-cyberarm method (the route taken by the Ronin, Negotiator, Mercenary Rigger, and Generalist) is cheap, and helps your defenses out. The drawbacks to it are that it leaves your non-shooting-people agility skills (such as Infiltration) lower, and it means that you are dependant on ability replacement (thus limiting you to 20 dice forever). It also limits you to using one-handed weapons or being less effective.

The full-body replacement method (taken by the Bad Enough Trog) makes you extremely tough and gives you full use of skills and two-handed weapons, but it still limits you to 20 dice. It also eats almost all of your resources (Essence and starting money).

The Muscle Toner route (taken by the Ghost and Combat Hacker, and which the Spook really, really wants to take as soon as he saves up 32000Y) is more expensive, but it has the advantages that you can eventually (or immediately, if you are more focused like the Ghost) break 20 dice. It makes you better at Agility skills, and it lets you use two-handed weapons.

The Mind over Matter (Logic->Agility) route (taken by the Transhuman Mystic) is a somewhat oddball route that makes you good at Logic and Agility skills, lets you use two-handed weapons, but is very expensive and character-defining and won't let you break 20 dice on Agility skills.

There's also the Increase Agility route, but it requires either a specific and not-universally accepted interpretation of Heightened Concentration, or requires you wait until you can afford a sustaining focus, which is why none of the Archetypes use this method."

Part of why the single-cyberarm method is used by more archetypes is because it's the least expensive option, even if it's also the least good - there's more different things you can do with your remaining points, so it is less character-defining and there's a wider variety of substantially different characters. Muscle Toner is the 2nd most common option, whereas Mind over Matter and full-body cyber replacement are both very character defining and eat up a large amount of resources, so leave less room for differentiation.


Tsuzua

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« Reply #13 on: <11-02-11/2120:22> »
I have to point out that you should be starting with Armor 2 on your cyberlimb not Armor 4.  First off, you can't have armor 4 unless you have a cybertorso.  As for Armor 3, it's avail 15 so you'll need to use a restricted gear to start which is totally not worth it.  You might want to buy it after play starts since it's cheap.  Remember armor uses rating x 2 capacity so everything might not fit. 

As written, cyberlimb armor totally is just extra armor.  A lot of people make it limb only though.  Personally I think the cyberlimb rules are poorly designed.  However I give it some slack since this is the first time in SR having a cyberlimb is actually a worthwhile choice.

As for having heavy armor, it's quite nice.  At 17-19 armor, you're totally not invincible though.  A Ex-Ex laden AR narrow long burst is at least 13P -2AP and that's going to do some damage.  Then there's the 9P -2AP short burst followup.  However, you'll be standing after that while many others wouldn't.  SR is way favored towards offense and you have to keep that mind.

Military armor is a very niche armor option.  First off, it's obvious and forbidden.  Secondly, it's hard to start play with one.  Thirdly, it doesn't stack with other worn armor.  You have 15/13 base armor in a suit so you aren't gaining much (higher if you up your cyberlimb body to the point you can wear heavier armor or use softweave).   

Military armor is useful for lower body characters who want lots of armor.  This is because military armor is body x 3 for encumbrance and has many mods that make it much easier to wear. 

At your levels of body, you don't need to look that unusual in your armor.  If your GM gives you grief about full FFBA, get a half suit instead.  Then you just look like a dude in a steampunk getup. 

Now is all of this balanced?  It really depends on your group, style, and how you view how the SR world works.  Some people have games where seeing a cyberlimb causes people to flip out and run away from the killer cyborg.  Others you can walk down the street with an AK-97 and likely need to due to the perpetual state of riot most of Seattle is in.  Some GMs think having 6 in a skill is unrealistic while others if you don't have a pool of 20+ GTFO. 

You can however debate the effects of various rules and gear on choices, builds, and tactics.  FFBA increases armor values.  Orks are extremely point efficient so your default choice is an ork unless you want something specific.  Cyberlimbs of Awesome means it's fairly easy to make a character a decent enough fighter so you move points elsewhere.  If it wasn't for the Cyberlimbs of Awesome, you really couldn't do a triple threat like the Generalist.  Cyberware Scanners means mundanes are even more disadvantaged compared to magic.