[Buzz]

In the core book of shadowrun it says that spirits manifests differently to awakened characters with regards to their respective tradition (something like a christian mage will see a fire spirit as an angel with a blazing sword while an hermetic mage might see him like a ball of fire). When a spirit materialize how would mundane characters perceive the spirit? And if two mage/shamans from different traditions see the same spirit, does it manifest differently for each of them?

I'm inclined to rule that the spirit manifests to mundane in the shape that it manifests to its summoner, but I wanted to get some thoughts/feedback on the subject.

[tzizimine]

The only rule about what spirits look like when manifesting is that they are obviously not-human... so a fire spirit might manifest as an avenging angel, but there is no way that anyone would confuse it for a human. There is a critter power for that called realistic form that provides that level of subtlety, but most spirits don't have it.


Since it is mostly cosmetic, I let the PCs decide that it looks like, but as a side note, it is 'assumed' that manifested spirits are also about the size of a human, with invoked spirits being larger.


Which reminds me of a story from 3rd ed, when it was easy to summon multiple watcher spirits and watcher spirits could manifest, even if they were insubstantial...


So the team I'm on needs to get into a locked facility... it's guarded but not locked down. So if we can get past the two guards at the loading dock, we're good. We can see the guards with visual magnification so seeing what they look like it's a problem. I summon three watcher spirits. The first two, I summon to look like pale, whispy versions of the two guards from the torso up... the third as the Grim Reaper... I order the two 'guard' watchers to float over in the astral only and stay near their respective guards but do not touch them. They are only to manifest when they are touched by the third, then they are to scream and float away while manifested... the 'grim reaper' is to manifest 20m from the guards, rush in and swing once at each spirit and then float away...


The guards see the grim reaper coming... it strikes each of the watcher spirits, which is really close to each guard... the guards each see their 'soul' be struck down and float away with the grim reaper... They panic and run away, leaving the loading dock free and clear...

[Zilfer]

The only rule about what spirits look like when manifesting is that they are obviously not-human... so a fire spirit might manifest as an avenging angel, but there is no way that anyone would confuse it for a human. There is a critter power for that called realistic form that provides that level of subtlety, but most spirits don't have it.


Since it is mostly cosmetic, I let the PCs decide that it looks like, but as a side note, it is 'assumed' that manifested spirits are also about the size of a human, with invoked spirits being larger.


Which reminds me of a story from 3rd ed, when it was easy to summon multiple watcher spirits and watcher spirits could manifest, even if they were insubstantial...


So the team I'm on needs to get into a locked facility... it's guarded but not locked down. So if we can get past the two guards at the loading dock, we're good. We can see the guards with visual magnification so seeing what they look like it's a problem. I summon three watcher spirits. The first two, I summon to look like pale, whispy versions of the two guards from the torso up... the third as the Grim Reaper... I order the two 'guard' watchers to float over in the astral only and stay near their respective guards but do not touch them. They are only to manifest when they are touched by the third, then they are to scream and float away while manifested... the 'grim reaper' is to manifest 20m from the guards, rush in and swing once at each spirit and then float away...


The guards see the grim reaper coming... it strikes each of the watcher spirits, which is really close to each guard... the guards each see their 'soul' be struck down and float away with the grim reaper... They panic and run away, leaving the loading dock free and clear...

Now THAT is bad ass. I REAAAAAAAALLY want to try that now. xD

[tzizimine]

Another scenario that really freaked people out was pulling the camera distortion from The Ring...


(For those that haven't seen it, part of the curse was having any camera/video image of you come out blurry while seeing yourself in a mirror was fine)


It involves two spells... a Physical Mask to make yourself look blurry... and a regular Mask (mana only) to make yourself look normal... anyone seeing you in the real world would see the regular Mask, which looks exactly like yourself, while anyone looking at your through a camera would see a blurry distorted mess...


Do this to your least favorite corp exec and laugh as he explains to security that he is not possessed or an imposter

[Xzylvador]

<snip> soul & grim reaper trick  <snip>

Lol yeah, awesome trick! +1

As to OP, I do think one spirit will look the same regardless of who perceives it. That shape would probably be defined by the will and character of its summoner and its tradition.
A spirit of fire called by a Christian theurge might very well be an angel with flaming halo, wings and sword; while a hermetic one might looks like a vaguely manshaped fire elemental and a druidic one like a golem made of magma or even a miniature mobile volcano or something the like.

[Buzz]

As to OP, I do think one spirit will look the same regardless of who perceives it. That shape would probably be defined by the will and character of its summoner and its tradition.
A spirit of fire called by a Christian theurge might very well be an angel with flaming halo, wings and sword; while a hermetic one might looks like a vaguely manshaped fire elemental and a druidic one like a golem made of magma or even a miniature mobile volcano or something the like.

Do you assume then that a christian theurge looking at a fire spirit summoned by a druid and shaped like a magma golem will identify it as such?

[tzizimine]

While looking at a spirit materialized will tell you that it is a spirit, I think it would either require a Spirits knowledge test or an Assensing Test (and Astral Perception) to tell what kind of spirit and what force it has...


I just wish there was a way in RAW for you to know how many services a summoned or bound spirit owes it's summoner.

[Fizzygoo]

In the core book of shadowrun it says that spirits manifests differently to awakened characters with regards to their respective tradition (something like a christian mage will see a fire spirit as an angel with a blazing sword while an hermetic mage might see him like a ball of fire). When a spirit materialize how would mundane characters perceive the spirit? And if two mage/shamans from different traditions see the same spirit, does it manifest differently for each of them?

I've always read it that the spirit appears within the theme of the summoner's tradition. So a hermetic-Christian with an angelic theme would summon a fire spirit that would look like a fire angle, or an angle with a flaming sword, etc. The appearance is set by the summoner's tradition...once summoned that is the spirit's form, regardless of who sees it (astral or manifest).

The innate nature and powers of a spirit are independent of the tradition of the magician who summons it, though the particular way in which the spirit appears will vary according to the magician's outlook. A fire spirit, for example, might take the form of a linving fireball to a mage, a fiery lizard to a volcano worshipper [sic], or an angle with a flaming sword to a Christian theurge. (SR4A, pg 180, emphasis mine)

So the summoner's tradition shapes the appearance of the spirits he/she summons, once summoned...that's it's form.

[Mason]

I just wish there was a way in RAW for you to know how many services a summoned or bound spirit owes it's summoner.

...the net hits on the summoning test. And then the net hits beyond the first on the Binding test added to the services already owed from the Summoning. For spirits at creation, 1 service per BP with spirit Force equal to Magic.

[tzizimine]

Yes, but those net hits are not something you learn when you assense a spirit, regardless of spirits at creation or in game...

[Mason]

Yes, but those net hits are not something you learn when you assense a spirit, regardless of spirits at creation or in game...

Oh, THAT'S what you meant. Either it was available in third edition, or it was suggested in ShadowRN or by Plastic Warriors, but I read early edition rules for that. Didn't make it into Fourth edition.

[CanRay]

So far, I've used a fan-pic of Alice Cooper (Which has scared players everywhere), an obvious Ghost Rider (The original Marvel comic book Hell-bound Biker version) rip-off, the front lawn of a Subdivision House, three *VERY* classic cars (1934 Ford Coupe, 1949 Mercury Eight, and the Phantom Corsair), and one free spirit that impersonates a human woman very well until she's really slotted off then appears to be made of storm and fury itself.

[beowulf_of_wa]

i've found quite a few images on deviant art, that i think will fit for game use.

[Charybdis]

My 2c on spirit manifestations as a GM

They can look like anything really, as long as there is a core fundamental that links them to the:
A) Spirit type
B) Summoning Tradition

Since there are so many varied options for both, the only way to know for sure is your very RAW assensing test, but by default any spirit with a flaming sword or manifesting as a pillar of flame is likely to have some sort of firey attribute.

However a bunch of ashphalt could be a Street Spirit, Earth Elemental, or any number of things.... Mundane people may have an idea through Knowledge skills, but unless you're awakened and assensing, you're just guessing.