[Black Sheep]

First post on the forums here, only recently got into Shadowrun 4th Ed but I've been diving into it pretty hard. Playing in a small game being run by a guy who has been into the game basically since it first came out and I'm about to start playing in another game under a GM who has never run the system before. Combined with running a period game of my own, I'm getting quite a bit of exposure to the system, but I'm still having trouble judging the usefulness of certain things as I just don't have the experience with it yet.

The game under the new GM is still in the character creation stage. There are only three of us playing, not including him, so he's given us 500 points so we can be a little more flexible. Right now, we have a mage and a rigger/faceman with me waffling between a hacker/street samurai combo and a technomancer.

I'll be honest, I absolutely LOVE the flavor of technomancers. I dig on the whole digital sorcery angle, and I do definitely see how they are very powerful characters. My issue is that, with the current party makeup, I have a hard time with pulling the trigger on playing one. The mage is more stealth/illusion based (with good skills using spirits), and the rigger is... well... a rigger. Good with drones, expensive van that she sits in, lots of programs and ware geared toward drone control for when she's on the run, charisma skills for when she's not.

It seems to me like with that party makeup, having another person who just sits in the van and hacks leaves the mage horribly vulnerable if stuff goes wrong, but without karma, it's very tough to make a technomancer viable outside the matrix, even with 500 points (mainly because of the fact 'ware lowers your maximum Resonance). Then on the flipside of that, Charisma is important to technomancers, but the rigger already has the face angle pretty much locked down.

My alternative is playing a hacker with quite a bit of geneware/cyberware that will be more into the AR style of hacking with a lot of points spread across infiltration and combat skills with a few face skills just to back the rigger up if needed. I'm not as wild about the concept, but it seems to be much more viable with such a small group. Provides good backup to both other party members while still filling the hacker role very competently.

I've seen this question come up on the forums tons of times, but I'd like a little advice in this case because the group is so small. The specialization a technomancer requires feels like it's trumped by the all-around utility of a mundane hacker. I mean, as far as meatspace goes, there's absolutely no comparison between the two, but likewise, the technomancer I built is much nastier in the matrix, or will be with minimal karma investment. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!

[rasmusnicolaj]

I'm not that much of a matrix expert, but I think you have it right.
The technomancer is much more a specialist and with a small group you probably would be better of with a street samurai / combat hacker type.

But then again your GM must make his runs so your group get success, so anything could go, but maybe talk to him about it and get his opinion.

Regards
Rasmus

[Crash_00]

I don't like technomancer. In fact, I really don't like technomancers. I don't care for the associated fluff, I don't care for the mechanics, I just all around get ill thinking about them. I'm not putting this here to be mean or hateful, but I feel its only fair to make it obvious that my opinion is blatantly biased.

I like AR Deckers. I've played one myself, I've got one that plays in my missions games, and they are all around a lot of fun and very very easy to make into a "combat decker". Yes, I still use the term decker, shoot me if you must but its just in my bones.

When you really boil it down, a good rigger can cover the entire combat role on his own, in spades, all he needs is someone to open doors for him, which if needed can be a drone with mechanical arms. They feel a lot less powerful in SR4 compared to SR3, but they're still up there.

If you have your heart set on it, play the technomancer like you want. They have a lot of cool stuff that you can play around with.

If you go the AR Decker route, I recommend Encephelon and PuSHeD (can never spell those right) along with some wired reflexes. Also, if you find yourself low on points, Exotic Ranged Weapon: Dart Rifle is an often overlooked weapon skill that I find to be almost always better than taking the louder guns (Dart Pistol if you're more subtle). Load em up with Narcojet for silent knockouts. Keep in mind the ammo will be costly with the drug costs adding in. As far as toxins go, technically you can just buy some industrial grade solvent and load it in for an extremely potent toxin. Many GMs won't like or allow that though.

With that loadout, you can effectively deal with drones (hack them or let the other goes blow them to bits) and easily take out most humanoids (nighty night Mr. 32 Armor Troll) as the Injection Dart just takes an extra success to "hit", hit of course meaning deliver its payload.

The only thing I can think of is to make sure your GM won't be using the optional rule of one AR Matrix action per turn. That pretty much kills the AR Decker outright.

Also, with lower number group sizes, I recommend asking the GM if you can use the Karma Generation system for a more well rounded team. The English version is a bit silly, but the German Version works very well (the English version was never given errata to update it to SR4A karma costs).

[FastJack]

Pick up Unwired and check out some of the Echoes and Advanced Echoes available to a Technomancer. Specifically, the Bioware Echo (allowing the TM to use the Resonance to alter his body so that it's a built-in Skillwire), the Sparky Echo (using the Resonance as a touch attack that hampers target's electronics) and the Acceleration (+1 Reaction/IP in the Real World) and Mesh Reality (use Matrix Initiative in Real World, don't go unconscious when in VR) Advanced Echoes. Yes, you can't get them unless you Submerge, but with 500 BP and a flexible GM, you should be able to get at least one Submersion grade at Character Creation.

Don't forget, because everything is wireless, you don't have to sit in the van to hack. You can actually do most of the hacking while in AR, it's just when you go into VR that you get bonuses to hack. My suggestion would be to build the TM with one Submersion grade, take the Bioware and stock up on Active Skillsoft/Complex Forms.

[UmaroVI]

You are pretty much correct - even on 500 bp, technomancers are going to be quite bad at non-matrix stuff. If you really want you can make a logic stream technomancer who is less bad at physical combat, but also less good at matrix; the idea is to take an Alphaware cyberarm of awesome, PuSHeD, and Alphaware Cerebral Boosters (you also need Biocompatability: Cyberware to jam it in). This eats 1 resonance, but leaves you with +1 to logic-linked skills (ie, hacking). Slap in Neocortical Nanites on the arm and you have another +3 when not stressed. You also have good fade resistance. Unfortunately, you can't jack your Stealth as high as a pure technomancer, and you can barely afford enough skills to be competent at fighting and hacking, but it is doable.

Another option is to ride around in drones. Rigging is a perfectly viable way to handle physical combat and technomancers can be good at Command rigging for cheap.

If you really do want a hybrid, though, then you really want to be a mundane hacker, not a technomancer.

Check my sig for some examples; the Info Savant is an example of a rigging-focused technomancer, and the Combat Hacker, Generalist, and Mercenary Rigger are all examples of street samurai/hacker hybrids.

[Mirikon]

Why not play a Technomancer Hacker/Sniper/Medic?

You have 500BP to start. See if your DM will allow you to submerge at a cost of 1 BP for 2 Karma. Grab the Biowire echo, and the Acceleration echo a couple times. Suddenly you have 3 IP in the meat as well as the matrix.

Grab a paragon if you like. Alias and Black Hat are favorites of mine. Restricted Gear is a must. Use it to grab a Barret 121. Then get yourself a melee hardened shotgun for close-quarters work. EXEX rounds for both. See where I'm going here?

Biowire allows you to emulate skillsofts you come in contact with, turning them into complex forms. Buy the DocWagon Paramedic and Knight Errant Self-defense skillsoft bundles. If your DM allows, I'd also create one with Longarms and Infiltration.

Get a dummy link, to make people think you're just a hacker on wires. Yes, there aren't witchhunts any more (Clockwork and Mitsuhama notwithstanding), but if you go into an area where they make you check your link at the door, then having a link to turn in (and shutting yourself off from the matrix entirely for a moment) allows you to pass unnoticed.

Any remaining points you don't spend on skills, attributes, forms, sprites, or contacts, use to grab some drones. Yes, you already have a rigger. But there's no reason you can't cover for areas where he's weak. If he has the ground game covered, you take to the air. If he doesn't have aquatic resources, and you're in Seattle, LA, or someplace similar, you might look into it.

Also, and this is just a personal preference, I'd invest in two vehicles. The first is the houseboat from Deadly Waves. When you're spending time probing systems, a mobile base of operations isn't a bad thing. The second is a Bulldog with Chameleon Coating and drone racks. Won't fit in if you're in high society, but for most situations it works, especially if you display private security colors (which also explains why you upped the armor). If you can swing it, you may consider another hit of Restricted Gear to grab a Multilaunch drone rack, and load it up with Dragonflies.

I disagree with others who say Technomancers are specialized. They are the swiss army knives of the matrix.

[All4BigGuns]

Why not play a Technomancer Hacker/Sniper/Medic?

You have 500BP to start. See if your DM will allow you to submerge at a cost of 1 BP for 2 Karma. Grab the Biowire echo, and the Acceleration echo a couple times. Suddenly you have 3 IP in the meat as well as the matrix.

Grab a paragon if you like. Alias and Black Hat are favorites of mine. Restricted Gear is a must. Use it to grab a Barret 121. Then get yourself a melee hardened shotgun for close-quarters work. EXEX rounds for both. See where I'm going here?

Biowire allows you to emulate skillsofts you come in contact with, turning them into complex forms. Buy the DocWagon Paramedic and Knight Errant Self-defense skillsoft bundles. If your DM allows, I'd also create one with Longarms and Infiltration.

Get a dummy link, to make people think you're just a hacker on wires. Yes, there aren't witchhunts any more (Clockwork and Mitsuhama notwithstanding), but if you go into an area where they make you check your link at the door, then having a link to turn in (and shutting yourself off from the matrix entirely for a moment) allows you to pass unnoticed.

Any remaining points you don't spend on skills, attributes, forms, sprites, or contacts, use to grab some drones. Yes, you already have a rigger. But there's no reason you can't cover for areas where he's weak. If he has the ground game covered, you take to the air. If he doesn't have aquatic resources, and you're in Seattle, LA, or someplace similar, you might look into it.

Also, and this is just a personal preference, I'd invest in two vehicles. The first is the houseboat from Deadly Waves. When you're spending time probing systems, a mobile base of operations isn't a bad thing. The second is a Bulldog with Chameleon Coating and drone racks. Won't fit in if you're in high society, but for most situations it works, especially if you display private security colors (which also explains why you upped the armor). If you can swing it, you may consider another hit of Restricted Gear to grab a Multilaunch drone rack, and load it up with Dragonflies.

I disagree with others who say Technomancers are specialized. They are the swiss army knives of the matrix.

If the other rigger has ground covered, then you're screwed if you don't want to step on toes in character creation. I've only found a couple vehicles that aren't ground-based (air or water) that are available in creation and at the same time worth getting.

[kirk]

If the other rigger has ground covered, then you're screwed if you don't want to step on toes in character creation. I've only found a couple vehicles that aren't ground-based (air or water) that are available in creation and at the same time worth getting.

stepping on toes? huh?

If you have two street sams are they stepping on toes?

The only place I've found where more does not equal better (usually) is in hacking.

Of course, to me vehicles are only part of rigging. Much more significant are the drones. You can never have too many spybots. Or murderbots to deal with what the spybots find.

[Xzylvador]

TBH, from an optimization point of view (not going into roleplaying here) your group doesn't make a lot of sense.
With only 3 players, you can have all the "roles" covered if you all first talk about who'll be doing what.
Rigger/Face doesn't make much sense. Social skills and especially Charisma don't have any use to him. A Cha-based mage or a technomancer can make far more efficient Face characters than a rigger could and would have to spend a lot less resources on it.
Having both a Rigger and a Matrix-specialist in a 3 person group also isn't really that good. Considering the stat and gear requirements and with the charbuild rules you're using, a single Rigger/Hacker character is a far more efficient way to distribute roles.

So Mage/Face, Rigger/Hacker, Combat/Infiltrator seems the best distribution.

That said, I'd like to repeat that this is purely from an optimization point of view. If you're all set the choices you've already made, good for you. I just think that as a 3 person shadowrun team, you might be lacking some things. (Nothing good players and a good GM can't get around, but still...)

[kirk]

TBH, from an optimization point of view (not going into roleplaying here) your group doesn't make a lot of sense.
With only 3 players, you can have all the "roles" covered if you all first talk about who'll be doing what.
Rigger/Face doesn't make much sense. Social skills and especially Charisma don't have any use to him. A Cha-based mage or a technomancer can make far more efficient Face characters than a rigger could and would have to spend a lot less resources on it.
Having both a Rigger and a Matrix-specialist in a 3 person group also isn't really that good. Considering the stat and gear requirements and with the charbuild rules you're using, a single Rigger/Hacker character is a far more efficient way to distribute roles.

So Mage/Face, Rigger/Hacker, Combat/Infiltrator seems the best distribution.

That said, I'd like to repeat that this is purely from an optimization point of view. If you're all set the choices you've already made, good for you. I just think that as a 3 person shadowrun team, you might be lacking some things. (Nothing good players and a good GM can't get around, but still...)

And see, I actually like it when groups aren't optimized -- provided I'm playing with players who can think and act and stretch themselves a bit. At the same time, as GM I try to ensure I don't require a holy toothpick, either object or role, to complete the job.

[Black Sheep]

If you go the AR Decker route, I recommend Encephelon and PuSHeD (can never spell those right) along with some wired reflexes.

I did put together a combat hacker that is pretty mean in a fight, but what would you think about taking a Resonance of 5 and taking an Alphaware Encephalon and the PuSHeD genetic mod on a technomancer? There seem to be a lot of mixed feelings about dropping the Resonance attribute, but going from 6 to 5 does save a lot of points that can be used elsewhere.

Pick up Unwired and check out some of the Echoes and Advanced Echoes available to a Technomancer. Specifically, the Bioware Echo (allowing the TM to use the Resonance to alter his body so that it's a built-in Skillwire), the Sparky Echo (using the Resonance as a touch attack that hampers target's electronics) and the Acceleration (+1 Reaction/IP in the Real World) and Mesh Reality (use Matrix Initiative in Real World, don't go unconscious when in VR) Advanced Echoes. Yes, you can't get them unless you Submerge, but with 500 BP and a flexible GM, you should be able to get at least one Submersion grade at Character Creation.

Don't forget, because everything is wireless, you don't have to sit in the van to hack. You can actually do most of the hacking while in AR, it's just when you go into VR that you get bonuses to hack. My suggestion would be to build the TM with one Submersion grade, take the Bioware and stock up on Active Skillsoft/Complex Forms.

I did look through those echoes, but I'm not sure that my GM will let me start with any of them. Like I said, this'll be his first time running Shadowrun and I don't want to ask him to complicate things any more than he already has. Even still, that's very tempting.

Also, on the skillsofts you learn as complex forms, I know you can't thread them even after they become permanent to raise their rating, and you can't spend karma to improve them, but can you use Edge with them since they are no longer a skillsoft and are now a complex form? I haven't seen anything about that.

You have 500BP to start. See if your DM will allow you to submerge at a cost of 1 BP for 2 Karma. Grab the Biowire echo, and the Acceleration echo a couple times. Suddenly you have 3 IP in the meat as well as the matrix.

Grab a paragon if you like. Alias and Black Hat are favorites of mine. Restricted Gear is a must. Use it to grab a Barret 121. Then get yourself a melee hardened shotgun for close-quarters work. EXEX rounds for both. See where I'm going here?

Biowire allows you to emulate skillsofts you come in contact with, turning them into complex forms. Buy the DocWagon Paramedic and Knight Errant Self-defense skillsoft bundles. If your DM allows, I'd also create one with Longarms and Infiltration.

Get a dummy link, to make people think you're just a hacker on wires. Yes, there aren't witchhunts any more (Clockwork and Mitsuhama notwithstanding), but if you go into an area where they make you check your link at the door, then having a link to turn in (and shutting yourself off from the matrix entirely for a moment) allows you to pass unnoticed.

Any remaining points you don't spend on skills, attributes, forms, sprites, or contacts, use to grab some drones. Yes, you already have a rigger. But there's no reason you can't cover for areas where he's weak. If he has the ground game covered, you take to the air. If he doesn't have aquatic resources, and you're in Seattle, LA, or someplace similar, you might look into it.

Also, and this is just a personal preference, I'd invest in two vehicles. The first is the houseboat from Deadly Waves. When you're spending time probing systems, a mobile base of operations isn't a bad thing. The second is a Bulldog with Chameleon Coating and drone racks. Won't fit in if you're in high society, but for most situations it works, especially if you display private security colors (which also explains why you upped the armor). If you can swing it, you may consider another hit of Restricted Gear to grab a Multilaunch drone rack, and load it up with Dragonflies.

I disagree with others who say Technomancers are specialized. They are the swiss army knives of the matrix.

I meant to say they are more specialized toward Matrix actions than a regular hacker would be without significant Karma expenditures or a Resonance hit. I realize that in the realm of hacking, they are incredibly flexible and valuable.

As for the van, the Rigger has dumped quite a bit into his van already with the idea that I'll be using it as well. I don't know if I can swing the nuyen for my own rigging van.

If the other rigger has ground covered, then you're screwed if you don't want to step on toes in character creation. I've only found a couple vehicles that aren't ground-based (air or water) that are available in creation and at the same time worth getting.

I don't see why a rigger would feel like their toes were being stepped on because someone else brought in more drones. If anything, that makes the rigger stronger because there are now more bodies on the field that he doesn't have to manage.

TBH, from an optimization point of view (not going into roleplaying here) your group doesn't make a lot of sense.
With only 3 players, you can have all the "roles" covered if you all first talk about who'll be doing what.
Rigger/Face doesn't make much sense. Social skills and especially Charisma don't have any use to him. A Cha-based mage or a technomancer can make far more efficient Face characters than a rigger could and would have to spend a lot less resources on it.
Having both a Rigger and a Matrix-specialist in a 3 person group also isn't really that good. Considering the stat and gear requirements and with the charbuild rules you're using, a single Rigger/Hacker character is a far more efficient way to distribute roles.

So Mage/Face, Rigger/Hacker, Combat/Infiltrator seems the best distribution.

That said, I'd like to repeat that this is purely from an optimization point of view. If you're all set the choices you've already made, good for you. I just think that as a 3 person shadowrun team, you might be lacking some things. (Nothing good players and a good GM can't get around, but still...)

I agree that the group is far from optimized, but the guy playing the rigger/face is pretty adamant about doing it. I've tried to explain to him that it would make way more sense for me to take that role as Charisma is actually something a Technomancer needs, but he's totally set on it. The problem is, the programs he took are awesome for, say, drone control, but he didn't take much in the way of heavy hacking programs... lots of Spoof, Sniffer, etc for finding and disrupting enemy drones, but weak on Stealth, Exploit, etc for actual hacking.

The problem is becoming that our group has tons of overlap in the area of face skills, matrix skills, and infiltration skills, but all three of us are weak in actual fighting. I dunno, I hear it said that if it comes down to an actual exchange of bullets, you've already blown your advantage, but it'd be nice to have someone in the group who doesn't just immediately die when that happens.

Thanks everyone for the input, really giving me some stuff to think about!

[All4BigGuns]

We have a rather small group, so in most cases, whoever is running the game tends to put a GM-PC into the party/team. It's worked out rather well so far--I'm generally the one who inserts such an extra character the least.

Personally, I don't agree with the "stepping on toes" bit, but there are gamers out there that don't want any other character to even be able to half-ass do what their character can do.

[squee_nabob]

If you really do want a hybrid, though, then you really want to be a mundane hacker, not a technomancer.

I agree. If you don want to wokr in meatworld, get Command 6 and remote control drones. Why snipe with a sniper rifle, when you can use a vehicle weapon?

[Crash_00]

I did put together a combat hacker that is pretty mean in a fight, but what would you think about taking a Resonance of 5 and taking an Alphaware Encephalon and the PuSHeD genetic mod on a technomancer? There seem to be a lot of mixed feelings about dropping the Resonance attribute, but going from 6 to 5 does save a lot of points that can be used elsewhere.

Well I believe that ware will drop your max and current Resonance (it works that way with Magic, but I haven't touched Technomancers in a while). Which means you'd have to hardcap (25 BP) to get Resonance to a six and  then drop it to a 5, if you wanted to start with a five and ware. Personally, I'm against it, but that's just because a lot of the ware, you can pick up equivalents later as you progress.

Technomancers, Adepts, and to a degree Mages, all pick up a lot of power advancing while the augmented tend to come out the door slightly more powerful. If you want to play one, I recommend being patient rather than jamming in ware.

As far as the stepping on toes goes, the most devastating team I've ever played in was a one-shot that a friend of mine ran once. We had all made characters for it, but none of us really had contact with each other during that process. Turned out we had three riggers and a mage (would have been four riggers, but the eventual mage had been banned from playing anyone with access to explosives after three consecutive TPKs in three separate systems, all accidental of course). It was SR3, but nothing lasted longer than one combat round. More drones is always a good thing. 

Also, hackers can be quite good together as well if played smart. You have the best one hack in and set up two admin accounts (one for him and one for the other hacker). Then the second just logs in and they work together to get what they need.

[Mirikon]

If you really do want a hybrid, though, then you really want to be a mundane hacker, not a technomancer.

I agree. If you don want to wokr in meatworld, get Command 6 and remote control drones. Why snipe with a sniper rifle, when you can use a vehicle weapon?

Because you can do both at the same time? Personally, I prefer technomancers to normal hackers, for the fact that they can adapt on the fly. Plus, sprites > agents, by a long shot.