[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

As a serious response to the question of how to encourage your PC's morals to slip: Don't.  Never do this; they're only resist, and feel noble doing so.  Simply show them the inevitable results of their choices in a world that isn't only as bad as our current one, it's worse.

Didn't kill that corrupted mage while rescuing the Johnson's 5-year-old daughter?  Have the weak Shadow free spirit he's made a pact with wake him up before the transfer is complete in the police station, and let them watch on the news as K-E tries to figure out the horrid deaths of everyone inside.

Saved the serial killer from falling off the roof?  Have him break out of prison six months later and go after a much-loved contact -- or the family of that facility's head of security.  THEN have the head of security come after the runners with a vengeance, because THEM he can find, and he blames them for letting the guy live.

There are other great ideas in this thread, but the basic idea in most of these is to make them lie in the bed they've chosen.  If they did the job they were hired to do ... or made real choices instead of trying to imitate Batman's twisted psyche by saving the bad guy. (Seriously, which of us wouldn't have killed the mass-murderer-in-the-quadruple-digits Joker by now, or even any of his OTHER Arkham Asylum cronies?)

[JustADude]

I know, I know...  but stealthy it wasn't.

I dunno... there's a few different kinds of stealthy:

1) "No Trace" - You glide through the building like a midnight breeze, a ghost of flesh and metal, leaving not a single sign that you were ever there. You carefully avoid, or spoof, the security systems and sneak past guards.

2) "No Alarms" - You don't give a crap if people know you were there, as long as you've got your objective and are out the door before the shouting starts. You hack or EMP security systems and 1-hit-KO the guards you can't avoid.

3) "No Witnesses" - You don't care if they see you coming, as long as they don't have time to scream for help, because you don't plan on leaving them around to tell anyone. Moar Dakka: Silenced Battle Rifles, chemical grenades, and breaching charges are the norm. The heavy troll gets to dual-wield MGL-18s

Seriously, which of us wouldn't have killed the mass-murderer-in-the-quadruple-digits Joker by now, or even any of his OTHER Arkham Asylum cronies?

I'd probably spare a few of them but, yeah, for Joker, Scarecrow, Crock, and a few others... bullet to the brain-pan, squish.

[Jaffer]

3) "No Witnesses" - You don't care if they see you coming, as long as they don't have time to scream for help, because you don't plan on leaving them around to tell anyone. Moar Dakka: Silenced Battle Rifles, chemical grenades, and breaching charges are the norm. The heavy troll gets to dual-wield MGL-18s

That's basically how it went.
5 guards and a commander in 1 combat turn, no shooting though, claws all the way.

[JustADude]

3) "No Witnesses" - You don't care if they see you coming, as long as they don't have time to scream for help, because you don't plan on leaving them around to tell anyone. Moar Dakka: Silenced Battle Rifles, chemical grenades, and breaching charges are the norm. The heavy troll gets to dual-wield MGL-18s

That's basically how it went.
5 guards and a commander in 1 combat turn, no shooting though, claws all the way.

Ah, but did you destroy all the cameras and put a satchel charge on the servers?

"No Witnesses" isn't just Pink Mohawk. Pink Mohawk is for amateurs that want to screw around with mayhem and destruction. Pulling off a No Witness run off properly requires professional-grade mayhem and destruction, which is just as much work as No Trace, but caters to a different skill-set.

[Black]

3) "No Witnesses" - You don't care if they see you coming, as long as they don't have time to scream for help, because you don't plan on leaving them around to tell anyone. Moar Dakka: Silenced Battle Rifles, chemical grenades, and breaching charges are the norm. The heavy troll gets to dual-wield MGL-18s

That's basically how it went.
5 guards and a commander in 1 combat turn, no shooting though, claws all the way.

Dude, it was a public train station with a ton of screaming civilians, and your relied of 'erased' to wipe the security camera footage (of which there was plenty, and actually come to think about it, I'm sure a civilian or two would have posted something on NeoTube. Mabye not the killing, that was over very, very quickly, but the large tiger running through the trainstation, yep, that should have been posted).

[Mirikon]

This is something I see a lot. People, both players and GMs, mistakenly believe that Erased is more powerful than it actually is. Erased takes away your data trail, but it doesn't scour the 'Trix looking for pictures of you to delete.

[Zilfer]

This is something I see a lot. People, both players and GMs, mistakenly believe that Erased is more powerful than it actually is. Erased takes away your data trail, but it doesn't scour the 'Trix looking for pictures of you to delete.

I think an AI has the time to scour the 'Trix which it says in the description of the quality that it might be an AI doing this. The threshhold to find something on the whole trix is what.... 24? If it's doing this and reaching that threshhold it wouldn't be that hard. *Disclaimer - I think*

Anyways i know it's not a get off scott free because people remember it, and if yo uhave physical evidence that just doesn't "disappear" a lot of the time. Sometimes you can affect the transportation of physical evidence to end up in the wrong spot. That's just my oppinion though, and even if you have Erased i still think you should be careful.

[Mirikon]

Except that is not what the quality does. Erased removes data trails and records, such as SINs, arrest records, purchases, credit history, etc. It doesn't go into systems and erase trid of you shooting up a train station, or that clip of you cracking Lofwyr's office safe. It doesn't even remove your image from them. That kind of cleanup is far more detailed, and requires you actually hiring someone for that specific service, or doing it yourself.

[Zilfer]

Except that is not what the quality does. Erased removes data trails and records, such as SINs, arrest records, purchases, credit history, etc. It doesn't go into systems and erase trid of you shooting up a train station, or that clip of you cracking Lofwyr's office safe. It doesn't even remove your image from them. That kind of cleanup is far more detailed, and requires you actually hiring someone for that specific service, or doing it yourself.

Oh yes, i agree editing a image to take you out but leave the rest there would be to much. Why would they do that when they can just delete the recorded file. That obviously makes them think "why would someone delete this file or what didn't they want us to see."

As for the train station how hard would it be to do a search "train station shoot up, on Train 117" and they'd most likely get a video hit on it. Now that ti's found delete it. Now if that video of cracking lofwyr's off the 'Trix on a safe back up onsite and offsite like it probably should be, it can't be hacked from the outside.

Again, I think the Erased quality says something about a "Spider or powerful AI" doing this. It should be woven into your background but I believe it's that they owe you a big favor for some reason and they keep you out of trouble for whatever you did to help them. You have "hired" someone to do this, or maybe they are just a good samratin and believe in your cause against evil mega corps! Or maybe He's your inlaw and doesn't wan't the family to be slandered by the crap you get yourself caught doing.

*shrugs* I'll chalk it up to DM's interpertation. I in no way try to make it over powered, i've even tracked down a PC with erased before.

 

[JustADude]

Again, I think the Erased quality says something about a "Spider or powerful AI" doing this. It should be woven into your background but I believe it's that they owe you a big favor for some reason and they keep you out of trouble for whatever you did to help them. You have "hired" someone to do this, or maybe they are just a good samratin and believe in your cause against evil mega corps! Or maybe He's your inlaw and doesn't wan't the family to be slandered by the crap you get yourself caught doing.

Or the A.I. grew out of one of your favorite childhood toys and is also a Loyalty 6 contact because the two of you are bestest friends? 

[Black]

In this case, the 'eraser' (Aztec) owns the train station, though I did have Ares hack the footage (as they currently have a task force hunting the runners), only for them to be hacked back by Aztec and loose the footage.  So footage gone... but in a way that raises a heck of a lot more red flags than the footage did itself.  Now Ares need to consider if Aztec (or at least someone powerful in the corp) is backing the runners (which they are not), a very serious concern given that the team was framed for killing an Ares executive.  I actually think the footage being left there may have been less harmful...  most the runners ran away screaming like paniced civilians (which made the one that stayed behind understand where they stood in the 'team' ).

In this case, it was a 'stuff happens' scenario.  But generally killing without gain in a public arena should be avoided at all costs.  Having said that, there was a time that a team of runners where screwed by Mr Johnson (actually, that could be the standard intro to a runner story), but he was too well protected at work and at his home... so they worked out which route his car/convey travelled each day, wired the street/sewers with explosives and launched a very public, very explosive hit.  Not very discrete, but it worked and they got the message out to the right people.. and then took a holiday until the heat blew over.

I don't think Shadowrunning lends itself very well to ethical people has a career choice.  But neither does it go well with psycho killers with poor self control.

[Black]

Again, I think the Erased quality says something about a "Spider or powerful AI" doing this. It should be woven into your background but I believe it's that they owe you a big favor for some reason and they keep you out of trouble for whatever you did to help them. You have "hired" someone to do this, or maybe they are just a good samratin and believe in your cause against evil mega corps! Or maybe He's your inlaw and doesn't wan't the family to be slandered by the crap you get yourself caught doing.

Or the A.I. grew out of one of your favorite childhood toys and is also a Loyalty 6 contact because the two of you are bestest friends? 

Now I'm picturing a series of missions, only to find out Mr Johnson is aka 'Mr Snuggle Bear'  working to ensure that his bestest buddy, Timmy, is looked after and kept protected form percieved threats.  Nice...

[JustADude]

I don't think Shadowrunning lends itself very well to ethical people has a career choice.  But neither does it go well with psycho killers with poor self control.

Very well put.

You've got to be a professional, well-trained sociopath.

[Black]

I don't think Shadowrunning lends itself very well to ethical people has a career choice.  But neither does it go well with psycho killers with poor self control.

Very well put.

You've got to be a professional, well-trained sociopath.

So true   Of course now I am wondering if Hannibal Lector would make a great Face, if he can just control the urge to eat Mr Johnson's liver.

[RelentlessImp]

I don't think Shadowrunning lends itself very well to ethical people has a career choice.  But neither does it go well with psycho killers with poor self control.

Very well put.

You've got to be a professional, well-trained sociopath.

So true   Of course now I am wondering if Hannibal Lector would make a great Face, if he can just control the urge to eat Mr Johnson's liver.

You're joking, right? Hannibal would be a Johnson. And the price for failure is being made the main course.