[Hellfire]

Hi chummers,

I have a question regarding the power "realistic form" for ally spirits.
when the summoner chooses the forms he can choose any physical creature or object and [a spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object's normal functionality]
so far so good.
Now what if the summoners chooses the form to be a full military armor or any armor at all (form fitting body armor for example),
1. could he wear it?
2. would he be encumbered?
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?

what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?

any (official) help or opinions are welcome.

best regards
Hellfre

[ArkangelWinter]

Idk about the armor, but I always rule spirits being the same size as a vehicle close to their force. So a private-jet ally would be pretty damn powerful.

[Crimsondude]

1. could he wear it?

Yes. I see no reason why not.
 

2. would he be encumbered?

From a "factual" standpoint, probably not. From a rules balance standpoint, he should suffer encumbrance under the auspices of having the "illusion of mass."

3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?

No. That said, it's a spirit, and therefore doesn't have the same physical properties as real substances, e.g. conductivity. Of course, I'd also not want to be "wearing" it in the cold because the human will freeze their ass off since the spirit isn't an insulator either.

4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?

Force or (Force x 2) if it has Immunity to Normal Weapons

5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?

Sure

what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?

There's no hard and fast rule, but after having gone through the math to make a Force 9 free spirit that was a Great Form when it went free (which makes it even bigger than a normal spirit), I'd say that a good rule of thumb is that the spirit should be no bigger than Force cubic meters in usable volume. So it would have to be a damn powerful spirit to manifest as a plane.


If I was an ally spirit, I would curse the day my summoner was born and wish for a painful death for being treated like this, though.

[Critias]

The long and short of it is that you (and your GM) have access to the same actual rules we do.  From here on out, you're going to be getting interpretations of those rules, and personal opinions of what we'd likely allow at our own games.

If your GM thinks it'll break the game to let it happen (or if you're the GM and you think so), the answer is no, it just doesn't work like that.  Make up some mumbo-jumbo about how a living creature's aura projects a few inches from it in every direction, which is why you can see an aura through clothes, and how being wrapped so tightly in the aura of a magically active creature will disrupt one's natural ability to grow as a person and interact with other auras properly and blah blah blah whatever, just make shit up to justify it if you feel like it. 

If a Body 2 magician waltzing around unencumbered in Force 12 hardened armor that looks like just form-fit is gonna be a problem, and that can cast spells just like the Magician can, is gonna be a problem...just say no.  For spellcasters that want to be directly augmented by spirits, there's always Possession traditions (which are, of course, their own can of worms) instead.  Ally Spirits are already pretty damned powerful, since they essentially give a PC a second really awesome and powerful magic-wielding player characters to use, all the time.  If letting them use the Ally in this kind of way is gonna bust your game -- or if that's what your GM feels -- then there's no reason not to just decide it doesn't work that way...or to respect your GM's decision, if that's what they think.

[Crimsondude]

Critias makes an excellent point on the opposite side of the Force/size spectrum. If you're going to be wearing a Force 6 spirit, it's going to look like a lot of armor because while there aren't  clear numbers there is a correlation between Force and manifested size.


And if they are walking around in a full suit spirit, the manifested spirit may seem transparent, but the wearer isn't going to have true line of sight to cast spells.

[UmaroVI]

As Critias says, rules-wise? Who knows, there really aren't rules.

Balance wise? Well, instead of having your ally spirit turn into a Armor Jacket and wearing it, you could have your ally spirit be Possession, buy an armor jacket, wear that, and have the ally possess it. There are slight advantages and disadvantages either way but really they're a wash. Based on that: I would say that you can have the ally spirit mimic any armor (including with armor modifications and stuff), but it works exactly like that armor - meaning a spirit Armor Jacket can encumber you, if it has Gel Packs, you take the extra knockdown, etc. I would treat it as providing +Force extra armor (since that's what would happen if the spirit possessed armor), but note that this does increase the encumbrance of the armor. Thus, for example, a f6 spirit that mimics an Urban Explorer jumpsuit would count as 12/12 armor, and you'd need Body 6 to not be encumbered.

[JustADude]

For spellcasters that want to be directly augmented by spirits, there's always Possession traditions (which are, of course, their own can of worms) instead

Slightly off topic; but could a Free Spirit (or Ally Spirit) from a Possession tradition Possess someone who is brain-dead, but still technically alive, and take over their life, or simply walk out of the hospital and use their new body for whatever they were wanting to do?

As opposed to the Shedim, of course, who do the actual Zombies, that is.

[Hellfire]

Thanks for the opinions so far

Taking into account the answer by Criterias "a good rule of thumb is that the spirit should be no bigger than Force cubic meters in usable volume" should outrule the "ally as a plane" scenario, however are there any restrictions as to the size in the other direction?
In the rules description there is the example of the toaster, which even if it is only a force 1 spirit is far less than 1 cubic meter. So in your opinion could the ally be for example a pen, button or even smaller, regardless of force?

However I also find the explanation with two auras overlapping very good, so I would also outrule the "wear the ally as armor" scenario, thanks for this input.

[JustADude]

However I also find the explanation with two auras overlapping very good, so I would also outrule the "wear the ally as armor" scenario, thanks for this input.

However, if you slap the Endowment power on the Spirit for 5 Karma, then it can Endow you with its Immunity to Normal Weapons, so you get the boost and it can still be out wrecking face instead of busy being worn.

[Makki]

a related question:
Can (more like: would you as a GM let) a Spirit manifest as two things? e.g.
a pair of shoes,
a garbage can and its lid,
etc

[Hellfire]

@justadude.

Endowment does not work in my opinion, as no spirit actually has immunity to normal weapons as a power, they only have materialization, which grants the spirit immunity to normal weapons when he is materialized. So IMO the spirit can only endow "materialization" to you, which is absolutely useless for a physical being. I take the endowment power literally: meaning power for me is what is listed under "powers" or "optional powers" in the critter stats.

@makki
I would allow for the spirit to manifest as a number of things, as long as these things are connected somehow, so shoes would work, as long as the shoelaces are bound together, same for the garbage can if the lid is attached by a hinge.

[JustADude]

@justadude.

Endowment does not work in my opinion, as no spirit actually has immunity to normal weapons as a power, they only have materialization, which grants the spirit immunity to normal weapons when he is materialized. So IMO the spirit can only endow "materialization" to you, which is absolutely useless for a physical being. I take the endowment power literally: meaning power for me is what is listed under "powers" or "optional powers" in the critter stats.

Okay, look at SR4A, p186, under Spirit Combat.

Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons...

Pretty cut and dry, really. Now lets look at SM, p 99, under the Endowment power.

The spirit grants the use of one of its powers to the subject.

Please take note that the entry does not say anything resembling "one of the powers listed in its Critter entry..." All it states is that it grants "one of its powers". Yeah, I'll grant you that the spirit would have to Materialize before it can grant Immunity to Normal Weapons, but once it's Materialized then it has ItNW, and can grant it via Endowment. No room for ambiguity.

Basically, Hellfire, you aren't taking Endowment literally at all. You're creating a whole new restriction based on trying to force the power to work in a way that aligns with your preconceived notion of how it should work.

If you want to House Rule that it doesn't work at your table then feel free, if you're GM then your rules go after all, but according to strict interpretation of RAW, it does indeed work.

[KarmaInferno]

Okay, look at SR4A, p186, under Spirit Combat.

Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons...

Pretty cut and dry, really. Now lets look at SM, p 99, under the Endowment power.

The spirit grants the use of one of its powers to the subject.

Please take note that the entry does not say anything resembling "one of the powers listed in its Critter entry..." All it states is that it grants "one of its powers".

You realize just how cheezeball min-max rules lawyerish that is, yes?

And that's coming from me, the guy who shows up to Missions games with 24-dice-pool-at-chargen characters.



-k

[JustADude]

You realize just how cheeseball min-max rules lawyerish that is, yes?

And that's coming from me, the guy who shows up to Missions games with 24-dice-pool-at-chargen characters.

Not rules-lawyerish at all, just understanding the true nature of the game. Besides, it requires ether shelling out the Karma for an Ally Spirit, or burning a service off a 5-hit Invoked Spirit to do, so it's not like it's "Woo-Hoo, Free Invincibility!!!"

RULES-LAWYERING would be trying to shoehorn it in under the definition of "available", because the rules for what power you can buy for your Ally Spirit (SM, p104) says "...any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure..." and ItMW is available to any spirit that can Materialize, Inhabit, or Possess something, because it gets it once it has Materialized, Inhabited, or Possessed something.

EDIT: Oh, yes, and if you use an Inabitation spirit that ends up in either a Hybrid Form or Flesh Form, then they ALWAYS have the ItMW power as long as they're Inhabiting.

[KarmaInferno]

Immunity to Normal Weapons is a side effect of Materialization, not a power in and of itself, at least for spirits.

There's a reason it's not listed separately in their stat block.

Any time you hear someone say the equivalent of "it doesn't technically say this", 99% of the time it's rules-lawyering.



-k