[DoomerEX]

Could use some advice on this character. I'm not sure about how well optimized he is, so I'd like to hear what you have to say (I'd heard putting some 'ware on adepts helped them, but I have no idea if I did it right)

== Info ==
Street Name: Ready to Rumble
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 5
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Ork
Composure: 3
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 17 (120 kg/80 kg)
Memory: 3
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 8 (9)
AGI: 5
REA: 4 (6)
STR: 7 (8 )
CHA: 1
INT: 5
LOG: 1
WIL: 2
EDG: 1
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5.0
Initiative:                9 (11)
IP:                        1 (3)
Astral Initiative:         10
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         6
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     13
Stun Damage Track:         9

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 4
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 4
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Blades                     : 6              Pool: 14 (16)
Climbing                   : 2                      Pool: 10
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 4
Disguise                   : 2                      Pool: 7
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 8
Dodge                      : 0                      Pool: 5
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 4
Flight                     : 2                      Pool: 10
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gymnastics                 : 2                      Pool: 7
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 4
Infiltration               : 2                      Pool: 7
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Palming                    : 2                      Pool: 7
Parachuting                : 3                      Pool: 12
Perception                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Pilot Ground Craft         : 0                      Pool: 5
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 5
Pistols                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 5
Running                    : 2                      Pool: 10
Shadowing                  : 2                      Pool: 7
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Swimming                   : 2                      Pool: 10
Throwing Weapons           : 3                      Pool: 8
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Unarmed Combat             : 0                      Pool: 4

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Qualities ==
Addiction (Mild) (Betel)
Adept
Low-Light Vision
Poor Self Control (Combat Monster)
Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Restricted Gear (Rating 2)
Signature

== Powers ==
Improved Ability (Combat) (Blades) Rating: 4
Improved Reflexes 2
Mystic Armor Rating: 1

== Lifestyles ==
House  1 months
   Comforts:      Low
   Entertainment: Low
   Necessities:   Middle
   Neighborhood:  Low
   Security:      Middle
   Qualities:     Escape Tunnel [3LP]
                  Hasty Exit [2LP]
                  Inconspicuous Housing, Matrix [2LP]
                  Security Conscious [2LP]
                  Crash Pad [-1LP]
                  Defective CHN [-1LP]
                  Household Gremlins (Rating 1) [-1LP]
                  No Forwarding Address [-1LP]
                  No Privacy, Physical (Rating 2) [-2LP]
                  Poor Condition [-1LP]
                  Trigger-Happy Landlord [-1LP]

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Dermal Sheath Rating 1
Suprathyroid Gland

== Armor ==
Armor Vest                6/4
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble)2/6
Vashon Island: Synergist High-collar Shirt2/2
   +Carbon-Boron
Vashon Island: Synergist Longcoat (Ensemble)9/4
   +Delta-Amyloid
   +Ruthenium Polymer Coating
Vashon Island: Synergist Skirt/Slacks1/1

== Weapons ==
Ceramic Knife
   DV: 7P   AP: -   RC: 0
Ceramic Knife
   DV: 7P   AP: -   RC: 0
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 4S   AP: -   RC: 0
Vibro Knife
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Custom Look Rating 1
   +Personalized Grip
   DV: 8P   AP: -2   RC: 1
Vibro Knife
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Custom Look Rating 1
   +Personalized Grip
   DV: 8P   AP: -2   RC: 1
Vibro Sword
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Custom Look Rating 2
   +Personalized Grip Rating 4
   +Weapon Focus
   DV: 10P   AP: -2   RC: 1

== Martial Arts ==
Arnis De Mano
   ++1 DV on Blades attacks
Ars Cybernetica
   ++1 DV on Blades attacks
Finishing Move
Iaijutsu

== Commlink ==
CMT Clip (1, 1, 1, 3)
   +Vector Xim
Meta Link (1, 1, 1, 2)
   +Vector Xim

== Gear ==
Betel x5
Contact Lenses Rating 1
   +Scatter X-Ray
Fake License (Foci) Rating 3
Fake License (Blades) Rating 3
Fake SIN Rating 4
Gentleman's Cane w/ Anchor and Sword Options
Goggles Rating 3
   +Image Link
   +Flare Compensation
   +Skinlink
   +Ultrasound
Metal Restraints
Nanopaste Trodes
Weapon Focus (bonded) Rating 4

[All4BigGuns]

How do you have a 5 Magic still on this? Dermal Sheath takes more than 1 point of Essence (not much, but still enough to reduce your Magic to 4, and that's if you spend the full 65 BP to get up to Magic 6 in creation.

[UmaroVI]

First, you should probably take a look at the characters in my sig - specifically, the augmented adepts (Negotiator, Martial Artist, Gunslinger, and Former Neoprimitive) for general ideas of how to do it.

Can you use Ways (ie, Way of the Adept)?

Your 'ware choices are indeed bad. You are right to get it, but that's not the stuff you want. Suprathyroid gland, while not bad in general, is bad for you in particular because it is a lot of essence but not that much benefit. What ware you want, precisely, depends very heavily on if you can use Way of the Adept so I will wait on your answer to that one.

Errors: You can't have ICA Blades 4; it is capped at half Blades so max 3.

Problems:
Mystic Armor is less good than Combat Sense. Combat Sense is somewhat overpriced, but not actually bad per se.

Willpower 2 is asking for it, and by "it" I mean "getting Stunbolted a lot." That many dumpstats will aggro some GMs so I would ask about it.

9 Body is overkill.

STR/2 damage rounds up, not down (ie, don't have even Strength).

Parachuting?

Throwing Weapons are not good (by which I mean "immensely terrible") unless you are an extremely specific type of adept. You are not. Use guns if you want ranged weapons.

Athletics 2 and Stealth 2 is very inefficient; I would probably start with Athletics 1 and Stealth 4.

Finishing Move and Iaijutsu are both good; you really, really want Two Weapon Style and also Off-Hand Training as well.

[DoomerEX]

I was just building this to get an understanding of the system, but let's assume I can use Ways. What would be the best ware, then (assuming I also make some more changes that you've suggested)? I'd also appreciate if you could bring up some good augmentation for non-Ways adepts as well.

And All4, Rating 1 Dermal Sheath is 0.6 essence, and is halved due to being less than the Superthyroid's 0.7.

[UmaroVI]

With Ways, you want Warrior's Way. What you would want to do then is have 1 point of 'ware, and discount 2 of your more expensive powers (Improved Reflexes and something else). I would probably go with, in this case:

4 PP of powers:

Improved Reflexes 2 (way)
Combat Sense 3 (way)
Improved Combat Ability (Blades) 2

Ware:
Reflex Recorder (Blades) (.1)
Muscle Toner 2 (.4)
Muscle Augmentation 2 (.4)
Reflex Recorder (Something Else) (.1)

Alternatively,
Alphaware Muscle Toner 4 (.64) [using Restricted Gear to get this]
Alphaware Muscle Augmentation 1 (.16)
and the two reflex recorders as above.

Without ways, things become very different because your adept powers are even more inefficient and there's less reason to have high magic (in particular, getting to even numbers is a breakpoint with ways). The big thing is that you really want Synaptic Boosters 2, because 1 essence is so much cheaper than 2.5 PP.However, this is a big resource investment and means you must be careful with your starting points, but it does pay off both short and long term. For powers, in this case, you have only 3 PP but no longer need to blow a ton on Increased Reflexes, so you probably want something like Improved Combat Ability (Blades) 2, Combat Sense 3, and Mystic Armor 1.

For 'ware without WotA, you probably want either SB 2 and the first setup above, or you want to be a Cyberarm of Awesome user, or you want to have
SB 2 and armored cybernetic partial limbs (just not your mainhand). The last setup would look like:

SB 2 (1 essence)
Muscle Toner 2 (.4)
2 obvious cyberhands, 2 obvious cyberfeet with armor 2 (1, halved to .5)
Reflex Recorder (Blades) (.1)

or, if you don't like cyberleprosy, get 2 partial lower legs instead (.9, halved to .45) with armor 3. This does allow you to put other stuff in them.

For cyberarm of awesome, the idea is that you bomb your base agility, then get a Cyberarm with high strength and agility and chop people up with that. You would in this case look like

SB 2 (1, halved to .5)
Reflex Recorder (Blades) (.1, halved to .05)

Cyberarm (1)
Cyber Lower Arm or Lower Leg (.45)

[All4BigGuns]

Went ahead and experimented a bit (probably wouldn't play it but...). This is an archer rather than a primary blade wielder, but it could probably be tweaked easily enough.


== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 5
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Ork
Composure: 5
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 14 (105 kg/70 kg)
Memory: 6
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 7
AGI: 4 (6)
REA: 3 (5)
STR: 5 (7)
CHA: 2
INT: 4
LOG: 3
WIL: 3
EDG: 2
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5.2
Initiative:                7 (9)
IP:                        1 (3)
Astral Initiative:         8
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         6
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     12
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 3
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 3
Archery                    : 6 [Bows]               Pool: 15 (17)
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Blades                     : 4                      Pool: 12
Climbing                   : 1                      Pool: 8
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 5
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Con                        : 1                      Pool: 3
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 2
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 2
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 2
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 6
Dodge                      : 1                      Pool: 6
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 5
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 3
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 2
Flight                     : 1                      Pool: 8
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Gymnastics                 : 1                      Pool: 7
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 5
Infiltration               : 4                      Pool: 10
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 1
Intimidation               : 1                      Pool: 3
Leadership                 : 1                      Pool: 3
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 5
Navigation                 : 2                      Pool: 6
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 3
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 6
Perception                 : 4                      Pool: 10
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1                      Pool: 6
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 4
Pistols                    : 0                      Pool: 5
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 4
Running                    : 1                      Pool: 8
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 3
Survival                   : 2                      Pool: 5
Swimming                   : 1                      Pool: 8
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 5
Tracking                   : 2                      Pool: 6
Unarmed Combat             : 0                      Pool: 5

== Knowledge Skills ==
Combat Tactics             : 3 [Guerilla]           Pool: 6 (
English                    : 6                      Pool: 10
History                    : 4                      Pool: 7
Parazoology                : 4                      Pool: 7
Sioux                      : N                      Pool: 0

== Contacts ==
Fixer (3, 3)

== Qualities ==
Adept
Incompetent (Longarms)
Incompetent (Automatics)
Low-Light Vision
Nano Intolerance
Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Sensitive Neural Structure
SINner (Standard) (Hawkfeather)
The Warrior's Way

== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 2
Enhanced Perception Rating: 2
Improved Ability (Combat) (Archery) Rating: 3
Improved Ability (Combat) (Blades) Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 2

== Lifestyles ==
House on the Outskirts  3 months
   Comforts:      Low
   Entertainment: Middle
   Necessities:   Middle
   Neighborhood:  Low
   Security:      High
   Qualities:     No Neighbors [1LP]
                  Green Plan [-1LP]
                  Network Bottleneck [-1LP]

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Muscle Augmentation Rating 2
Muscle Toner Rating 2

== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble)2/6
Victory: Globetrotter Camouflage Jumpsuit5/3

== Weapons ==
Bow (Rating 7)
   DV: 9P   AP: -   RC: 0
Survival Knife
   DV: 5P   AP: -1   RC: 0
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 4S   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Sony Emperor (2, 2, 2, 3)
   +Renraku Ichi
   +Suite: Basic User [Analyze 2, Browse 2, Command 1, Edit 2]
   +Skinlink
   +Subvocal Microphone
   +AR Gloves
   +Armor Case Rating 6

== Gear ==
Ammo: Arrow (Bows) Rating 7 x150
Backpack
Climbing Gear
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Image Link
   +Flare Compensation
   +Skinlink
Earbuds Rating 3
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Skinlink
Emergency Field Dressing x5
Flashlight x2
Ghillie Suit
Goggles Rating 2
   +Thermographic
   +Vision Magnification
   +Skinlink
GPS
Insulated Netting
Medkit Rating 6
Micro Flare Launcher
   +Micro Flares
Rappelling Gloves
Rations x20
Sleeping Bag
Survival Kit
Tent

== Vehicles ==
Thundercloud Morgan (ATV)
   +Off-Road Suspension
   +Weapon Mount (Normal, External, Fixed, Manual)
   +Vehicle Sensor

[Lethe]

2 obvious cyberhands, 2 obvious cyberfeet with armor 2 (1, halved to .5)

or, if you don't like cyberleprosy, get 2 partial lower legs instead (.9, halved to .45) with armor 3. This does allow you to put other stuff in them.

SB 2 (1, halved to .5)
Reflex Recorder (Blades) (.1, halved to .05)

Hey Umaro, help me out here please. How do you make those things cost only half essence?

[Xzylvador]

^ My guess would be a Geas and Way of the Warrior discount.

As for combat adepts, IMO all of them should get Attribute Boost (Agi) 1. With 4-5 magic, you'll usually end up with +1 or +2 dice to all your attacks or important stunts at the cost of 0.25 Power Points at the cost of having to resist a few points of stun damage (resisted by will+body); much too good to pass up. Duration will be quite short but combat barely ever lasts longer than a couple of rounds so it shouldn't be important.

[Lethe]

^ My guess would be a Geas and Way of the Warrior discount.

That will only decrease the PP cost of adept powers, not the essence cost of cyberware.

As for combat adepts, IMO all of them should get Attribute Boost (Agi) 1. With 4-5 magic, you'll usually end up with +1 or +2 dice to all your attacks or important stunts at the cost of 0.25 Power Points at the cost of having to resist a few points of stun damage (resisted by will+body); much too good to pass up. Duration will be quite short but combat barely ever lasts longer than a couple of rounds so it shouldn't be important.

Definitely good for unaugmented adepts. But augmented ones mostly have reached their augmented maximum already, which can't be increased further using boost. And you waste a simple action ;-)

[rasmusnicolaj]

You only pays half essence cost of the lower of cyberware/bioware.
I think that is where it comes from.

Rasmus

[Tsuzua]

You only pays half essence cost of the lower of cyberware/bioware.
I think that is where it comes from.

Yep, that's what Umaro is referring to.  You divide essence loss into cyberware and bioware cateories and the lower of the two values is halved.  Thus, if you have a cyberarm (Essence Cost: 1) and cerebral boosters 3 (Essence Cost: .6), you only lose 1.3 essence.  It's -1 from the cyberarm (cyberware) and -.6/2 or -.3 from the boosters (bioware).  The rules for this are on page 86 of SR4A.

[UmaroVI]

^ My guess would be a Geas and Way of the Warrior discount.

As for combat adepts, IMO all of them should get Attribute Boost (Agi) 1. With 4-5 magic, you'll usually end up with +1 or +2 dice to all your attacks or important stunts at the cost of 0.25 Power Points at the cost of having to resist a few points of stun damage (resisted by will+body); much too good to pass up. Duration will be quite short but combat barely ever lasts longer than a couple of rounds so it shouldn't be important.

I'm not a big fan of Attribute Boost because it eats an action to turn it on. SR combat is over fast, and it is never worth spending an action to get +2 dice for the rest of the fight. So it only helps if you know a fight is going to start and you are the one who gets to set the timetable; it's dead weight when you get ambushed, or when you're infiltrating something, or in a lot of other situations.

[Lethe]

Yep, that's what Umaro is referring to.  [...] The rules for this are on page 86 of SR4A.

Thank you, i didn't know that! That answers so many questions...

[DoomerEX]

Another question. From a purely optimization point of view, are any of the more exotic creatures (Shapeshifters, Drakes, Sapient Critters) worth the points? Do their upgraded attributes make up for their inability to take 'ware? Is a pure Adept worth it when these are considered (I figure that the lowered mental abilities kind of mean it has to be some kind of fighter)?

[All4BigGuns]

I don't think the "more exotic creatures" are worth their point costs really. Sure a lot of them are pretty tough cookies, but with how much they cost, you're not going to have that many points left for actually buying up the attributes, and after that you'll have hardly any left for skills--not to mention Contacts (not going into Resources here though that is still an issue even without buying 'ware).

As to pure adepts, as I've stated multiple times, I prefer pure adepts. I did tinker around and put together an augmented one which I posted in an earlier comment I made in this thread, and to be perfectly honest, it was a little better than a pure adept version would've been, but not by much and mainly because Improved Physical Attribute is overpriced. In my opinion, this just proves that reducing the price of that (and a few other adept powers) is ALL that's needed (and not by that much).