[Murrdox]

Just because I have to rant about it.  This is what I have to deal with as a GM.  One of my players re-made his Shaman character.  I should add that he's remaking it with about 50 points of Karma to spend.

- No physical stats above 3.
- Magic 6 (good!)
- Int and Wil both 5, Cha at 3 (Not bad)

- Combat Paralysis (?!)
- Scorched

Magic Skill group at 5, Conjuring at 4.  Smattering of other skills... including... Clubs 3.  NO firearm skills.

Magic spells include Control Actions, Mob Control, and Mass Confusion.

So he can't shoot anything... and everytime combat rolls around he's going to be Paralyzed for a round, and using Control Actions on everyone he can.  Ugh.... my NPCs are all going to need high WIL to deal with this.

Previously his character was keen on using Control Actions to make enemies drop their firearms, and generally get in the way.  In one particularly long firefight, he used Control Actions on one trooper, made him throw his weapon away, and then made him run over and try to hug one of the other Troopers who was still engaged in the firefight.

Mass Confusion is new though, now I need to learn how to deal with using that spell.

[ArkangelWinter]

2 dirty tricks to use on this. If he wants to use clubs, fine. Stick him in a horrible Background Count (6) and have an NPC that mistakenly thinks the character's some batom/hammer wielding adept master kung-fu the crap out of him. Next time, he'll buy a gun. Frankly, if it drives you crazy dont allow it. I dont really see a huge problem besides a lack of creativity with his Control spells and poor skill choices

[Murrdox]

Oh, he'll sink or swim on his own, that's for sure.  He's also planning on using Spirits rather heavily.

I'm just worried that his character is going to get shut down really quick.  The other characters in the group aren't combat beasts either, and if the Mage suddenly can't assist anymore because he's taken too much Drain and his Spirits are banished... that could cause the whole group to go down.

[All4BigGuns]

So he can't shoot anything... and everytime combat rolls around he's going to be Paralyzed for a round, and using Control Actions on everyone he can.  Ugh.... my NPCs are all going to need high WIL to deal with this.

Do not fall into this trap until Street Cred, Public Awareness and Notoriety are around 3 or 4 EACH. Before that, it is unlikely enough people will have heard of the character or his abilities enough to send those types after him. If you only send high Will NPCs after him/the team before that then he has full right to gripe and complain. Same thing goes with enemy mages throwing Stun Bolts. Sometimes they should end up targeting the PC with the highest Will because there are times when the guy whose stereotype is weaked-willed is the strongest willed person on the team, and the NPCs shouldn't be able to sense this by any means.

[Zilfer]

Then their getting known in the business eh? Yeah, at first they won't have too many dangerous people after them.... unless you know of course they piss off some large troll named "The Mountain that Moves" who has 40+ soak dice on top of reflex, and you STILL manage to do 5DV to him from an Ares' Viper Slivergun, and the sniper up above manages to do 1-2DV. Yeah don't agree to any "oh meet me without weapons" type deals cus otherwise you get forced into do this mission or I kill you type situations and you end up raiding an Ares Macrotechnology building for a disc CD <--- yeah old tech. Then you eventually end up stranded in a room with a dragon who had arranged to give said Mountain that Moves the Disc in return for companions for the next 13 years.


P.S. Having a Dragon use 5 edge to stay alive from an Ares Viper Slivergun is probably still my best thing yet. (even if we didn't know rules back then that the dragon can't use edge to reroll non hits on the dice pool)

(Enough ranting from me again)


I think as an upgrade he should be able to turn that off and on.... <.< but i haven't read the description of the upgrade for that bike so maybe not. I would definately want to be able to turn it off and on if i was doing stunts like that. I'd give him bonus dice for attempting to try and do that for style. xD

[Simagal]

Most of those spells would not work on Security drones.

[All4BigGuns]

Zilfer is quite right. If you REALLY don't like the character, don't allow it in your game. Period. If you allow it, then, well, sorry, any problems caused are entirely your fault and you'll just have to deal with it rather than arbitrarily punishing the player.  Simagal is correct as well, however, again, don't overuse the drones because to be honest, would you be having fun if a GM overused enemies that are immune to your strongest 'attack'?

That said, since he has 50 karma, why is he not initiating? He could probably manage initiating once and getting Magic 7 with that. Are the spells listed his only spells? If so, I'd at least suggest to him to have Stun Bolt (for fleshy targets) and Lightning Bolt (for those drones mentioned before--that way you could use those drones  ).

[Murrdox]

The character as I posted it is what he is after spending his 50 Karma.  He got his Magic up to 6 from 5, increased his starting Conjuring Skill group from 4-5 I believe, bought a few more other skills and spells, etc.

I don't think he'll be a difficult character to GM, and no I'm certainly not going to load up the campaign with high WIL characters to deal with him (although the idea of security drones is a good point.  I don't have enough of those in the campaign currently.  I need to add some in).

I'm more worried about the fact that this player is playing an intentionally handicapped character and that if I don't pull my punches a little bit, I could wipe out the entire group because of it.

That... and that Mob Control is going to just make any combat I can throw at them VERY unpredictable.

[Walks Through Walls]

To slow down the mob control all you really need is one mage with a decent counterspelling.
Also remember that the target gets to reroll their resistance after the spell force in CT. So if he casts at a low level to keep drain low they will get to try and break out several times over a prolonged combat. With their successes reducing the net successes each time. (You don't have to beat the mages successes in one roll. If he has net 3 then next time your get 3+ successes they break free it's not vs the number of successes the mage rolled each time.) Also remember they get bonus dice if what he wants them to do is against what they would normally do.

[Critias]

Have you thought about maybe just talking to him?  I know that gaming in general, and at times it seems Shadowrun in particular, has a long and proud history of, instead, custom tailoring encounters and NPCs to counter a player character's latest trick and keep things challenging, frustrating, or somewhere in between...but...

Why not just tell him you've got some misgivings and concerns about this new mage, before gameplay really starts and he gets attached?  Because "this is what I have to deal with as a GM" strikes me as a pretty unfun attitude to have.  If this new character's shooting your enjoyment in the foot, if it's giving you headaches, if you're worried it's going to be too good or too bad or just too lame...or whatever...

I mean...talk to the guy.  Gaming is a social activity.  The people in your gaming group should be your friends, at least to the point that you can talk to them about the game, rather than only being able to talk to them in the game.  I'd tell him your concerns -- now, early in the week, when he's hopefully still got time to work on a character and be excited about it, not right before the next session is supposed to start -- and ask him to make a few changes, if I were you. 

Talk to him and find out what it is he thinks makes a combat-paralyzed mental manipulator (with a club, not a gun) awesome, instead of irritating or just weird.  See what it is he digs about the character concept, see what you can salvage of it so that he'll have fun, but not at your expense (or everyone else's), and hammer out a cool character that you'll both like.  Now, before it's too late, and he's put even more work into it, or gotten even more psyched about it.

Life's too short for stress to ruin your leisure time with friends.  This is something you can nip in the bud pretty easily, seems to me.  No need to let it fester and then be all passive-aggressive about it.

[nakano]

Have you thought about maybe just talking to him?  I know that gaming in general, and at times it seems Shadowrun in particular, has a long and proud history of, instead, custom tailoring encounters and NPCs to counter a player character's latest trick and keep things challenging, frustrating, or somewhere in between...but...

Why not just tell him you've got some misgivings and concerns about this new mage, before gameplay really starts and he gets attached?  Because "this is what I have to deal with as a GM" strikes me as a pretty unfun attitude to have.  If this new character's shooting your enjoyment in the foot, if it's giving you headaches, if you're worried it's going to be too good or too bad or just too lame...or whatever...

I mean...talk to the guy.  Gaming is a social activity.  The people in your gaming group should be your friends, at least to the point that you can talk to them about the game, rather than only being able to talk to them in the game.  I'd tell him your concerns -- now, early in the week, when he's hopefully still got time to work on a character and be excited about it, not right before the next session is supposed to start -- and ask him to make a few changes, if I were you. 

Talk to him and find out what it is he thinks makes a combat-paralyzed mental manipulator (with a club, not a gun) awesome, instead of irritating or just weird.  See what it is he digs about the character concept, see what you can salvage of it so that he'll have fun, but not at your expense (or everyone else's), and hammer out a cool character that you'll both like.  Now, before it's too late, and he's put even more work into it, or gotten even more psyched about it.

Life's too short for stress to ruin your leisure time with friends.  This is something you can nip in the bud pretty easily, seems to me.  No need to let it fester and then be all passive-aggressive about it.

QFT

And +1 for you.

Communication, in my experience tends to minimize or eliminate twinkery/powergaming/munkinism.  If you hate a concept either a) don't approve it, or b) work with the player to tweak it.

No need to go out of your way to screw with a player to punish him for a broken character when you could head the problem off at the pass by talking to them.  That way you can focus your efforts on making the game more fun for everyone.  Its been my experience that when you tailor encounters to beat down a player they have no fun, and that impacts the rest of the table.

Its a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

RPGS are not about winning.

Its about fun.

[Kontact]

It sounds to me like you're not upset about this mage but mages in general.  You're basically mad that the guy isn't a street sam.  For instance:

1) Mages don't generally have physical stats above 3.  They are not physical.  You should not expect them to be physical.  They don't shoot people.  They don't need to shoot people.  They aren't good at it.  Does your team really need an extra middling shooter?

2) Control Actions and Mob Control are nowhere near as troublesome as Control Thoughts, Mob Mind or even Stunbolt and Stunball.  If he can take out the entire opposition each time with Mob Control, then he could take them all out with a Stunball.
Try spacing your opposition out better and utilizing cover.  Tactics are what make firefights difficult.  Also, try not to lean on the combat crutch to generate tension.  Combat is always a tricky cocktail to mix right.  Your boy's half-strength mage isn't the source of this problem.

3) Spirits are a problem, but they can be a problem on both sides.  Sure, a F6 spirit can wreck a whole crew of thugs, but the drain can be massive.  Remember that every hit on the spirit's resistance is 2DV of drain.  Spook gets 4 hits and your mage is soaking 8S.  He over-uses spirits, that's abuse.  Throw edge on the resistance test.  Suddenly the mage is fighting to stay conscious, or, if over-summoning, alive.  It's unlikey that he will want to repeat this.

[JustADude]

Just as a note on Points #2 and #3...

First off; Mob Mind, Control Thoughts, Alter Memory, et al are best used to AVOID fights, not end them. Do it right and not only won't there be shooting, but Security will issue you valid security clearance, walk you to the objective, help you pack it up, and then hold the door for you on the way out.

Secondly; Spirit Drain is only an issue if you don't think ahead; my current Mage has something like a half-dozen F6 Beast Spirits on tap, ready to rumble when needed.

Third; a Mage "abusing" Spirits is like a Technomancer "abusing" Sprites. That is to say, it's like a Rigger "abusing" Drones, or a Street Samurai "abusing" guns.

[Orvich]

Third; a Mage "abusing" Spirits is like a Technomancer "abusing" Sprites. That is to say, it's like a Rigger "abusing" Drones, or a Street Samurai "abusing" guns.

I think he's talking about literally abusing spirits. If you mess with spirits too much  (Overuse the spell sustaining, for instance) and piss them off, they start to use edge to resist your summoning and start trying to loophole your commands.

[Murrdox]

To comment on some other people's thoughts:

My first post came across maybe that I'm mad at the player or frustrated.  Not so.  It was just a bit of a "facepalm" moment as a GM when I saw my friend's character sheet.  I went through my campaign notes for encounters to sort of judge how this character would work out, and if I needed to tone anything down (or enhance some encounters) because of him.

I've already talked to the player, and he understands the limitations of the character that he's designed, and he's going to work within them.  If he finds that he's really lacking in certain abilities, he'll spend some Karma after our next run to try and fill those gaps.

Thanks for the drone idea though.  Using some additional drones will really muck around with his Control Actions ability, and at the same time, it'll give the Rigger of the group some fun opportunities to do some drone hacking on the fly.