[jonathanc]

Is it really the case that orcs:

1) Give birth in clutches, ranging from between 2-8 (presumably with an average of 4)?

2) Reach full maturity by 12-13 (biologically compared to a human 18-20 year old)?

3) Have a natural lifespan of 35ish years?

I recall reading some of these numbers in various places across various editions and I want to be certain.

I've always felt that the hyper-aging/maturity of orks was one of the sillier things in SR; I was glad that they left it unsaid in SR4, because I felt better about ignoring it.

[JustADude]

I've always felt that the hyper-aging/maturity of orks was one of the sillier things in SR; I was glad that they left it unsaid in SR4, because I felt better about ignoring it.

Actually, it does list them as having an average lifespan of "35-45", in the table in SR4A that lists off height / weight / lifespan for the Metatypes. Thing is, given that Elves/Dwarves basically have  "Unknown; None Have Died Of Old Age Yet" and Humans and Trolls have a single number for their average (65 and 55, respectively), that makes me think the listed info for Orks is highly unreliable and based mostly on their propensity for dying violently long before they fall over from old age.

[Fizzygoo]

Birth-spacing.

That's a nail hit on the head for this topic.

Given all other factors being true; that a successful ork birth results in an average of 4 offspring and that in the 4 or so generations of orks living on the planet they have not out-populized the other metahumans, the birth-spacing is likely a major factor that just hasn't been dealt with/described. The question then gets shifted to how many times can an ork woman give birth? Is there a high rate of infertility in orks? Etc. It's possible that ork women have far fewer eggs than human women, or that their eggs are less viable, or that an ork woman's ovulatory cycle is far greater than 28 days. So to double check the old 1st edition write up on the ork metatype: Nope, all it says is "Their breeding season is unrestricted. Gestation is 187 days." (SR1 softcover, pg 28). So other than a major change in the ovulatory cycle all the above are possible reasons. Unless I've missed some canon statement otherwise.

[CitizenJoe]

Alrighty then... Survivability of newborns. 
Infant mortality rates are gathered every year and looking at the past, I see that the US has about 7 per 1000 births dying before 1 year.  Twins have about 5 times greater mortality rate and triplets+ are 15 times more at risk. 

That's about 10.5% mortality chance for each ork child assuming that they are raised in a modern US level of care.  That typically means significant amount of prenatal care.  Sewing the mother up (Yes, this is a thing) to keep the children to term.  Then C-section birth and finally keeping the infants in ICU for a month. 

I am leaning towards the typical ork not having those luxuries.  So, if we assume that they are closer to 1950's America level of health care, that's 30.5 deaths per 1000 births, or about 46% mortality rate. 

Unassisted birth out in the Barrens?  Pfft, ya right.  Not gunna happen.  Probably a death sentence for the mother as well.

[Critias]

Alrighty then... Survivability of newborns. 
Infant mortality rates are gathered every year and looking at the past, I see that the US has about 7 per 1000 births dying before 1 year.  Twins have about 5 times greater mortality rate and triplets+ are 15 times more at risk. 

That's about 10.5% mortality chance for each ork child assuming that they are raised in a modern US level of care.  That typically means significant amount of prenatal care.  Sewing the mother up (Yes, this is a thing) to keep the children to term.  Then C-section birth and finally keeping the infants in ICU for a month. 

I am leaning towards the typical ork not having those luxuries.  So, if we assume that they are closer to 1950's America level of health care, that's 30.5 deaths per 1000 births, or about 46% mortality rate. 

Unassisted birth out in the Barrens?  Pfft, ya right.  Not gunna happen.  Probably a death sentence for the mother as well.

While I agree that infant mortality rate should be an issue with orks, keep in mind that the numbers you're citing are for humans, who are biologically quite different. 

[CanRay]

Orcz iz tuffer dan dose breederz! 

[CitizenJoe]

While I agree that infant mortality rate should be an issue with orks, keep in mind that the numbers you're citing are for humans, who are biologically quite different.

Are they 15 times tougher?  Because that's the number they need to beat if they're having more than triplets. 

You can bump the mortality down as you like, but those numbers right there explain why there is not a huge population explosion in orks.

If you want to get Squick, you can throw in 'helpful' Humanis sponsored family councilors that give out prophylactics in the low class neighborhoods and also staff abortion clinics.  All to give people better lives.  Since the vast majority of orks can't afford proper health care, they don't have much choice.

[CanRay]

If you want to get Squick, you can throw in 'helpful' Humanis sponsored family councilors that give out prophylactics in the low class neighborhoods and also staff abortion clinics.  All to give people better lives.  Since the vast majority of orks can't afford proper health care, they don't have much choice.

Forget Squick, it's been outright said they do that. 

Go to the wrong free clinic to have a litter, and it'll be your last, even if you survive.

[Critias]

While I agree that infant mortality rate should be an issue with orks, keep in mind that the numbers you're citing are for humans, who are biologically quite different.

Are they 15 times tougher?  Because that's the number they need to beat if they're having more than triplets. 

No, it's not just a matter of "tougher."  It's a matter of "different."  Are dogs or cats 15 times tougher than humans, to be able to give birth in the numbers they do?  Or are they just different, and meant to give birth in higher numbers than human beings?  Now, yes.  Orks being tougher might help them with some of the secondary stuff (like giving birth in bad conditions), and that sort of thing...but I think it's a mistake to automatically assume they get all the same complications of multiple births that humans do.

[CitizenJoe]

Orks are still Homo sapiens, proven by the fact that all the metahumans can interbreed.  The ability to average 4 births at a time is a radical change... further supporting those numbers without extra mammary glands pushes the limit even further.    I am not one to just blindly accept 'Word of God' explanations.  But, let's just assume for a moment that orks ARE capable of supporting 4 infants.  That would lead to surrogate mothers and worse, clone incubators.

[raggedhalo]

The question then gets shifted to how many times can an ork woman give birth? Is there a high rate of infertility in orks?

Are orcs infected with the genophage?  *grin*

[jonathanc]

I've always felt that the hyper-aging/maturity of orks was one of the sillier things in SR; I was glad that they left it unsaid in SR4, because I felt better about ignoring it.

Actually, it does list them as having an average lifespan of "35-45", in the table in SR4A that lists off height / weight / lifespan for the Metatypes. Thing is, given that Elves/Dwarves basically have  "Unknown; None Have Died Of Old Age Yet" and Humans and Trolls have a single number for their average (65 and 55, respectively), that makes me think the listed info for Orks is highly unreliable and based mostly on their propensity for dying violently long before they fall over from old age.

It lists 35-55 as the average lifespan; it also lists humans' average lifespan as 65. There's nothing in SR4A about rapid-aging, or reaching puberty at a different age from humans. The implication, IMO, is that Orks simply die younger than humans do, due to poor living conditions/violent lifestyle.

[JustADude]

It lists 35-55 as the average lifespan; it also lists humans' average lifespan as 65. There's nothing in SR4A about rapid-aging, or reaching puberty at a different age from humans. The implication, IMO, is that Orks simply die younger than humans do, due to poor living conditions/violent lifestyle.

Unless the changed it in a later printing Orks have it listed as 35-45. I'm using the table from SR4A, p72. Where are you getting yours?

As for the rest of it... dude, that's exactly what I just said.

[crisses]

It lists 35-55 as the average lifespan; it also lists humans' average lifespan as 65. There's nothing in SR4A about rapid-aging, or reaching puberty at a different age from humans. The implication, IMO, is that Orks simply die younger than humans do, due to poor living conditions/violent lifestyle.

All of Shadowrun 4 is compatible with former releases of Shadowrun (c.f. the online FAQ).  The early puberty/physical maturity of Orks has been mentioned as being one of the big factors in Ork---uh---self-control issues.  It may be in DNA/DOA -- yep:

p. 32 (Welcome to Wilhem Park)

Orks receive much of their bad press from the fact that their adolescent males tend to be more "active."  Physically, Orks reach maturity at about age 12, while a human does so at 18 or so.  Though an Ork reaches an advanced state of physical development earlier, he still has the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old. (Put a 12-year-old in the body of a body-builder to imagine what happens!)  A vernerable, old Ork is one who has reached the ripe age of 35, and he will begin to show signs of aging at about 20 years."

So that's a hint to where some of us may be getting our information -- and it has yet to be refuted by either RAW or canon, to my knowledge.

[jonathanc]

It lists 35-55 as the average lifespan; it also lists humans' average lifespan as 65. There's nothing in SR4A about rapid-aging, or reaching puberty at a different age from humans. The implication, IMO, is that Orks simply die younger than humans do, due to poor living conditions/violent lifestyle.

All of Shadowrun 4 is compatible with former releases of Shadowrun (c.f. the online FAQ).  The early puberty/physical maturity of Orks has been mentioned as being one of the big factors in Ork---uh---self-control issues.  It may be in DNA/DOA -- yep:

p. 32 (Welcome to Wilhem Park)

Orks receive much of their bad press from the fact that their adolescent males tend to be more "active."  Physically, Orks reach maturity at about age 12, while a human does so at 18 or so.  Though an Ork reaches an advanced state of physical development earlier, he still has the emotional maturity of a 12-year-old. (Put a 12-year-old in the body of a body-builder to imagine what happens!)  A vernerable, old Ork is one who has reached the ripe age of 35, and he will begin to show signs of aging at about 20 years."

So that's a hint to where some of us may be getting our information -- and it has yet to be refuted by either RAW or canon, to my knowledge.

I'm not saying that it is - what I said is that the books currently in print do not mention early puberty for orks, so I feel more comfortable ignoring the concept. I'm free to do so at my own table anyway, but as someone who generally prefers to follow canon, the fact that this concept has remained largely untouched and unmentioned for at least an edition or two gives me a bit of extra justification, at least by my own standards.

As to why I would want to ignore it...well, it makes the whole game feel more ridiculous to me. It also makes any human/dwarf/elf who is dating an ork a likely pedophile/pederast, and calls into question how the education system would work, and why Orks have an intelligence penalty when in fact they would be at the prime of their learning abilities at a (relatively) younger age - all Ork children would be geniuses (compared to their human/elven classmates) who gradually flatten out into morons by adulthood, which is kind of silly when you think about it.

Socio-economic explanations for their shorter average lifespan seem much more logical than a physiological explanation.