[Critias]

Why would they be stupid?  Why would they die earlier?

I don't know, why would they be stronger?  Why would they be tougher?  Why are Elves faster, and Trolls more powerful?  Why are Dwarves shorter?  It's all the same reason: because they are.  Because they're not totally human. 

It's not just the socio-economics of the setting.  It's not just poverty, or Humanis propaganda, or Barrens living (though all those exacerbate the differences, I'm certain, and all of them are perfectly valid doses of handwavium you can use to ignore/explain the canon Orkish life-cycle).  But the real issue is that Homo Sapien Sapien is different from Homo Sapien Robustus, which is different from Nobilis, which is different from Ingentis.

Shadowrun isn't just CP:2020, it's also got a healthy does of D&D in its genes.  I know "a wizard did it" is a geek joke, but sometimes it's totally true.  The different metaraces age and act and look different because they're...well...different metaraces.  It's combining that aspect of it with the complexities of a pseudo-modern society (like the justified complaints and frustrations Orks would show, living in a modern city, under modern-type laws) that makes Shadowrun what it is.

Is it goofy pulp-era nonsense, trying to mish mash modern society and cultural understandings with fantasy-era silliness?  Absolutely.  But that's most of the fun.

[Mirikon]

As I said before. Magic. Explains everything.

[jonathanc]

The problem with this view is that this isn't D&D. These aren't totally alien species; they goblinized out of regular humans. If you go back a couple of (human) generations, these people were blood cousins of actual humans; furthermore, they display the same "racial" features as humans (there are Asian Orks, African-American Elves, Middle-Eastern Trolls, etc.

That makes it a lot harder to swallow that these guys are as alien as you're suggesting. It just doesn't seem right, and alternate explanations make so much more sense.

[Mirikon]

Jonathan, you're forgetting the whole "magic" part of the equation. Magic takes science out behind the woodshed, throws it a beating, and then tells it to go play while the big kids talk. Magic means, in essence, that what you thought you knew no longer applies.

[Critias]

But it is.  It totally is D&D, dude.  I mean, okay, technically I guess "it totally is Earthdawn, dude," instead, but the point still stands.  The Shadowrun metaraces are, and always have been, just ported-over fantasy species.  So why is it this one little thing that's so hard to agree with, out of all the rest of it?  The tusks, and the ears and the magical eyes, the innate physical attribute differences...why this as the part that's hard to swallow? 

Is it because it hints at real-world racism?  Because that, at least, I could wrap my head around.  If someone were familiar with "medical reports" from as recently as, say, a century or so ago, they'd see some pretty vile stuff about blacks being not-quite human, being their own species, having certain physical and mental tendencies, etc, etc...does this stuff about Orks just hit that nerve, maybe?  Does the breakdown of fantasy races ring a little too close to real-world racism, cause a knee-jerk reaction, or something?

And if "because it's magic, actually" still doesn't fly for you, why not think of the various metaspecies as different breeds of canine?  Welsh corgis live a different amount of time than GSDs, who average different than chihuahuas, who are smaller than huskies, who have duller scents of smell than bloodhounds, and on and on.  But they can still interbreed, and they share common ancestry. 

The problem with this view is that this isn't D&D. These aren't totally alien species; they goblinized out of regular humans. If you go back a couple of (human) generations, these people were blood cousins of actual humans; furthermore, they display the same "racial" features as humans (there are Asian Orks, African-American Elves, Middle-Eastern Trolls, etc.

That makes it a lot harder to swallow that these guys are as alien as you're suggesting. It just doesn't seem right, and alternate explanations make so much more sense.

See, this is the part I don't get.  This is the disconnect, for me.

So you're cool with magic being a thing.  Humans can evolve into Trolls -- who average 2.8 meters tall and have bony dermal deposits and can see heat signatures -- and that's cool.  Elves and Dwarves living for centuries longer is neat.  Pixies are a thing.  Dragons are back, and Drakes are folks who grow up human and then later can turn into mini-dragons and stuff, but that's reasonable and realistic.  Werewolves and weretigers and werewhatevers are all around, and totally plausible as natural creatures that can turn into human form and magically heal.  Vampires and ghouls and banshees all make total sense, just from there being a magical virus that gets transmitted by bite or scratch, even when that virus makes them stop aging or needing to eat food.  Cyclops are cool despite being basically human like everyone else, Night Ones and Satyrs -- Satyrs -- are kosher, despite similarly being a generation or two removed from bog-standard metahumanity.  These metavariants cropping up along regional and cultural lines, almost as if by magic, is okay, though, 'cause that's just demographics.  SURGE and all its associated goofiness is okay, because a comet flew close to the planet so it makes perfect sense.

And Orks being stronger is cool.  Them being tougher is fine.  Them seeing in the dark is okay.  They can be innately different so long as it means bonuses to a combat character, I guess?  That part's okay, same as a Troll or a Dwarf being absolutely inhumanly strong and durable.  That's cool.

But where your suspension of disbelief breaks down is with Orks having a downside?  Being "dumber," as you put it?  Or with them living a little bit shorter than everyone else (which, I still insist, is a tremendous non-issue in most games, and if your games are really so long that it is an issue I'm impressed)?  Or with them -- quietly, in the background, where it's unlikely to directly affect a game unless the player and GM work together on it and agree to make it come up -- having lots of kids at once?

'Cause, brother, I just don't get that.  Seriously, I just can't wrap my head around that being where you draw the line in the sand, and refuse to budge. 

[Critias]

And -- again -- if that is where your suspension of disbelief breaks, that's totally cool with me.  Like I've said, rock on with your game.  That's fine.  I'm not out to be a dick here and try to prove anyone is playing "wrong" or viewing the game world wrong, or whatever.  It just seems like a really weird last straw, to me, that's all...a really weird place to go "Woah, that part doesn't make any sense," compared to all the rest of the craziness and goofiness that this game has to offer.

[crisses]

An Orkish PC who started running when first edition launched (who started running the shadows as a street-tough punk of 16 years old) is still only 40 years old in the timeline, today, as of the most recent publication.  That's hardly decrepit or having been aged into uselessness, or needing other PCs to buy them diapers, etc, etc.  Just like plenty of people live well past the average lifespans today, it's not like an Ork is going to suddenly keel over and die at 45 as some sort of hard cap.

Well, by 40 the Ork may well have "lost their edge" but Shadowrun 4 explicitly says that we're "now dealing with 2nd and even 3rd generation runners" -- heck, if you think 40 is too old, run your character's 16 year old kid through a campaign.

I agree about the cycle of gaming though -- characters can do 1-2 campaigns a month (even more at times), or dawdle while training and summoning and programming for a very long time between campaigns.  Assuming an average of 4 runs per quarter (even if they're all back-to-back with a long character downtime hiatus after...) an ork is good for up to 304 runs between ages 16-35.  I think that's good enough.

I think the problem isn't the math, or the life cycle, but a player who really really likes orks.   Ain't got anything against orks. 

"It's better to burn out than to fade away..."

[jonathanc]

Jonathan, you're forgetting the whole "magic" part of the equation. Magic takes science out behind the woodshed, throws it a beating, and then tells it to go play while the big kids talk. Magic means, in essence, that what you thought you knew no longer applies.

"A wizard did it" doesn't really fly in a setting that goes so far out of its way to explain fantasy tropes scientifically. We've had multiple books addressing questions around metahuman genetics. They even made a specific decision to define orks and trolls as human variants, rather than completely separate species (as is the case for other humanoid fantasy races in Shadowrun). There is no such relation in D&D, and most D&D settings have separate societies for different races so they don't have to deal with the problems created by having such vastly different beings trying to interact in a single society.

Also, Critias, my problem isn't with Orks having a downside; I don't even mind them having a lower limit on intelligence or whatever. I don't even mind them having a higher chance of dying young. The hyper-fast aging thing just creates a ton of headaches, though. Now every ork is either a little kid in a bodybuilder's body, an adult in the body of a decrepit senior citizen, or someone who has maybe a year or so to go before they start losing voluntary control of their bowels. Also, any young person dating an ork that appears to be their own age is a pedophile.

That ork gunslinger in the core book? By your fluff, she's like...8. Fatima, who buys it in Ghost Cartels, would have likely been hobbling through that firefight with a walker, given the super-fast aging fluff. It's just ridiculous. Yes, that's my line. 8 year old bodybuilders with cybernetics are my line. That's not a fantasy game anymore, that's a retarded fantasy game.

[jonathanc]

An Orkish PC who started running when first edition launched (who started running the shadows as a street-tough punk of 16 years old) is still only 40 years old in the timeline, today, as of the most recent publication.  That's hardly decrepit or having been aged into uselessness, or needing other PCs to buy them diapers, etc, etc.  Just like plenty of people live well past the average lifespans today, it's not like an Ork is going to suddenly keel over and die at 45 as some sort of hard cap.

Well, by 40 the Ork may well have "lost their edge" but Shadowrun 4 explicitly says that we're "now dealing with 2nd and even 3rd generation runners" -- heck, if you think 40 is too old, run your character's 16 year old kid through a campaign.

I don't have a problem with anyone running at 40 -- but according to the 2nd edition fluff you guys are quoting, a 40 year old ork would be dealing with end-of-life decisions in hospice care, if he's lucky....otherwise he'd be lying in his own filth waiting to die from organ failure.

For what it's worth, I seldom get to play Shadowrun -- 9 times out of 10 I'm GMing, and balance most of my characters habe been elven/human, so this isn't an ork bias talking.

[JustADude]

I don't have a problem with anyone running at 40 -- but according to the 2nd edition fluff you guys are quoting, a 40 year old ork would be dealing with end-of-life decisions in hospice care, if he's lucky....otherwise he'd be lying in his own filth waiting to die from organ failure.

That's assuming, though, that Orks actually are in severe biological decay at that age, rather than that being the point they begin their decline. You are, once again, ignoring the difference between "average lifespan" and "biological limits".

Based on their 6-Month gestation, 12-14 year maturity it's safe to assume Orks have roughly 2/3rds the lifespan of a Human. Assuming they have the same "decay" curve as humans, which is NOT a given, that makes a 40 year old Ork about equivalent to a 60 year old human; getting old and creaky, yeah, and probably about ready to retire.

If you assume the 35 listed is factoring in the violent deaths, while 45 is more of a true "biological" average, then the "2/3rds Theory" also meshes almost perfectly with Humans' listed lifespan being 65.

However, it's quite possible, given how much of the breakdown of the human body is through wear and tear over time, rather than cellular degradation, that Orks could actually have a much longer window of normal "adult" functionality before falling off into geriatric decay, meaning they could possibly continue normal adult behavior into their 50s, with a much more rapid falloff toward "total system failure" as they approach their mid-60s.

In that analysis, they would get nearly the same amount of "grownup" time as humans at the cost of 1/3rd of their childhood, and be spared most of the lingering indignities of old age.

[CanRay]

Let's turn this on it's head.  Forget ork gangers and Shadowrunners and SINless...

Orc SINners.

Congrats, you're full growed at, what, 12?  14?  Too bad 21 is the legal age to vote. Or drink.  Or have sex with an "adult".  16 is the legal age to drive.  18 is the legal age to join the military.

You're at the peak of your physical abilities, and still in Junior High.  Enough to make even a tusker cry.

And how long does Gary Cline have left, even with gene treatments?

[JustADude]

18 is the legal age to join the military.

Actually, at least in UCAS, they let Orks enlist at 14.

[crisses]

There is no such relation in D&D, and most D&D settings have separate societies for different races so they don't have to deal with the problems created by having such vastly different beings trying to interact in a single society.

I haven't played D&D since 2ndEd, but as I recall, half-elves, half-orcs, etc. were STANDARD.  i.e. in D&D they may not have said "Orks are modified humans" but according to D&D humans and orks can interbreed.

Now every ork is either a little kid in a bodybuilder's body, an adult in the body of a decrepit senior citizen, or someone who has maybe a year or so to go before they start losing voluntary control of their bowels. Also, any young person dating an ork that appears to be their own age is a pedophile.

You are still generalizing a whole lot.  Bad idea.

"every ork is..." No.  A 16 year old ork is probably mentally & emotionally close enough to "mature" to make no difference.  A 20 year old ork is in his prime (like an ~30 year old human).  A 25 year old ork is in peak mental form (like a 30-40 year old human) and assuming he's been taking great care of his body, he rocks the house on tactics, forethought, etc.  Because -1 point of Logic should be bought up by now + mature skills.  This is the equivalent of 40 year old human men in real life who are executives at the top of their mental game.  Assuming the ork isn't throwing their life away on booze, cheap women, drugs/BTLs, gang warfare, etc. and is playing the corp ladder game, running the shadows, or living a decent life, by 30 he's lived a pretty full life.  Yeah, a shorter one.  But a 30-yr-old ork runner is still in great shape, still can pulverize a baddie, but now knows when to slot & run rather than try to take bullets just for being bullheaded.

That ork gunslinger in the core book? By your fluff, she's like...8. Fatima, who buys it in Ghost Cartels, would have likely been hobbling through that firefight with a walker, given the super-fast aging fluff. It's just ridiculous. Yes, that's my line. 8 year old bodybuilders with cybernetics are my line. That's not a fantasy game anymore, that's a retarded fantasy game.

You think in black-and-whites, not in continuums.  Why is there no middle ground for you?  At 8 years old, she wouldn't have 400BP.  She might be 15.  A little rough around the edges, a tad immature, but not needing a babysitter.  Perhaps just a little less street-smart about when to keep her gun in the holster versus when to shoot.  If one chooses to play her that way, kudos & karma.  But she's capable of whipping your butt, and doesn't need a curfew anymore.

[CitizenJoe]

How's this? 

Orks have enlarged pituitary glands (and other growth regulating glands).  This causes rapid growth and muscle formation.  While some of the aggressive behavior is explained by hormone imbalances, making them difficult to deal with in a social setting, their supposed inferior intelligence stems from them being effectively four years younger than most people at the same age.  Orks do not generally degrade past a certain age and then die like most of the metahumans.  Because of their pituitary condition, they are constantly growing.  At some point their internal organs simply cannot sustain the mass and they suddenly shut down abruptly.  This is why their maximum age is so highly variable.  Naturally, orks don't get old, they die before that happens.  However, a dedicated ork could fight against his condition with essentially a starvation diet and other behaviors that would restrict his growth... but why would anyone want to live that way.  Wealthy orks (yes, they do exist) can get organ transplants and upgrades which can support their ever growing bodies, and thus live well past the projected ages.

In the female ork, hormonal effects tend to result in multiple eggs, this tends to accelerate near the end of the predicted natural lifespan.  One of the side effects of the wear and tear on internal organs is to make the female ork 'hyper fertile' with many eggs being released during each cycle.  While female orks are better suited to handing multiple fetuses, bringing more than twins to full term is very dangerous for both the mother and infants.  In spite of their greater fertility, ork infant life expectancy from multiple births is very low.  This is why there has been little growth in the ork population over 50 years.

[JustADude]

Orks have enlarged pituitary glands (and other growth regulating glands)... ... ...

Bravo... +1 for a simple and elegant explanation.

I believe you managed to cover all the knowable (aka canonical) facts, so that explanation is as good as any given that this is all fictional and we don't have any real Orks to go poke and prod.