[Glyph]

@Crash_00:

See, that second example sounds a lot more plausible.  Like CitizenJoe said, it's about the resources that a client conceivably has to offer.  Now purely from the point of RAW, I would disagree with how you handle that negative quality, which is purely a lateral limiter, but within the context of your own campaign, it fits with how you seem to handle all flaws.  Note, though, that geneware would purely be a question of balancing the boost from it versus the Magic loss - sensitive system only applies to cyberware (and nanoware), not bioware (or genetech).

[Crash_00]

That's pretty much the point that I've always been making. If you take a flaw, at the very least it should cause you to have to make some tough choices. Introducing those choices, as a GM, shouldn't be an issue.

I personally fail to see how it's any different from a hacker getting extra nuyen from pulling in paydata, a organlegger selling off bodies for an extra dime, and so on. In each case the GM is letting someone get more money for what is occurring in game, and I don't see the need to make it up to the other characters. The world doesn't really work that way.

[All4BigGuns]

That's pretty much the point that I've always been making. If you take a flaw, at the very least it should cause you to have to make some tough choices. Introducing those choices, as a GM, shouldn't be an issue.

I personally fail to see how it's any different from a hacker getting extra nuyen from pulling in paydata, a organlegger selling off bodies for an extra dime, and so on. In each case the GM is letting someone get more money for what is occurring in game, and I don't see the need to make it up to the other characters. The world doesn't really work that way.

The real world doesn't, but we're talking about a game here. It's called fairness to the other players plain and simple.

[CitizenJoe]

The real world doesn't, but we're talking about a game here. It's called fairness to the other players plain and simple.

What game are you playing?  Rainbows and Lollipops?

[Sichr]

Yeah, failing means less than (Power) successes, so you fail if you roll 7 or less successes. You don't take Wound modifiers on resistance tests, and Agony specifies it's as if it was a wound modifier, so no, it doesn't worsen that. There aren't hard rules on glitch/critical glitches for this AFAIK.

This would pretty well mean that the majority of characters might as well not even bother rolling because they don't have enough dice to even come close to the required hits. Anyone see yet why my suggestion is to either not use ghouls at all or heavily house rule the crap out of the disease?

Or, if it's too much, you can simply change the Vector from Contact to Injection.

I've always liked how the infection is contact rather injection simply because it makes ghould a lot more scary as enemies.  Just the fact that any contact, particularly blood splatter, could infect the character is, well, just terrifying to some players.  But the injection vector would tone it down nicely if that was an issue.

I recall drop of infected blood falling into victims eye from raven`s beak in 28 days after...wow that was creepy...

To this whole Reward discussion...do you guys recall, that the topic of this thread is Antisocial characters and the discussion evolved from the point that Negative qualitty taken by character durich creation, granting the character some extra build Points, should have to come into play for the character, or it is simple exploit/fraud? It doesnt matter if thae character has sensitive system. It does matter that when he step on the mine, get an arm amputed by monowire etc and street doctor have nothing but cyberreplacement to save characters life, he will do it. And player would continue to play the character, even if hit hard by the quality, and wont be whinning about some GM punishment, because that is how things work. And if character is dumped, or get stunned during the combat, and he got wired/buged with some tracking ware/ nanoware...even eye recording unit, because oponent wants character to lead him to Johnson or someone else, it doesnt matter that character is magician, it doesnt even matter that from the chars/stats point he realizes his loss as soon as he woke up and GM tells him: "Lower your magic by 1" or if GM wont tell him anything and give him an oportunity to find it out slowly during the play. Quite good asensing roll is needed to discover real implants placement etc.

Besides..
What makes you thing that Mafia dont have its own share in deltas? Even those quoted Ghost Cartel statistics are real. and telling that someone would tke deltagrade just to show that he can afford it...do you realize, that delta is almost undetectable, has also high damage resistance and EMP resistance. Milion reasons why to have even simplier ware in delta..well the pride is the last one that comes to my mind when I`m thinking abour shadow world professionlas.

[Leevizer]

The real world doesn't, but we're talking about a game here. It's called fairness to the other players plain and simple.

What game are you playing?  Rainbows and Lollipops?

I don't know about you guys, but I like having friends even after a roleplay session... Not having four torn-up character sheets because my players are idiots and I have every right to be mean to them because I'm the gamemaster.

And besides, Shadowrunning doesn't seem that gritty. Some parts of the rulebook are dark, some seem to be funny or comedic. It's a mixed bag, so arguing about it might be pointless...

[Sichr]

The real world doesn't, but we're talking about a game here. It's called fairness to the other players plain and simple.

What game are you playing?  Rainbows and Lollipops?

I don't know about you guys, but I like having friends even after a roleplay session... Not having four torn-up character sheets because my players are idiots and I have every right to be mean to them because I'm the gamemaster.

And besides, Shadowrunning doesn't seem that gritty. Some parts of the rulebook are dark, some seem to be funny or comedic. It's a mixed bag, so arguing about it might be pointless...

Ok. Some axioms of the Sixth World then:

Mr. Johnson never lies.
Even if Johnson tells runners, that: "Opposition is second to none, and I expect no further complications." he doesnt lie.
Street gangers are always amazed by runners professionalism, so they always agree to negotiate.
Even if they don`t, they surrender to basic violence display.
Contacts are telling you the truth without side interrests.
Running means hurting "those bad", so runners are usually "Those good", even helping humanity on its way to the bright future.
Ghouls feel sorry for eating humans. They usualy cry when eating babies.
Dragons and AAA`s are not ruling the world for their own, unrecognizable interests, but for the greater good of every living "sapient" being.
Deus is not a threat.
Insect spirits are setting people free from pain and sorrow, bringing final calm and unity for everyone willing to listen long enought.
Media are like Mr. Johnson: They don`t lie.
Living in Aztlan is good for your soul and heart.
Desert wars are just trid show, those people dont die really...its the same as Urban Brawl.
Humanity being whipped by a few Vitas pandemics, UGE, racial and "shapial" hattred, Comunication and financial infrastructure crashes is great fiction (actually, it is )
..
When you read Street Legends, you feel like you are reading about some bunch of clawns and jokers, witch I can see is funny and comedic (acually, it is sad, at least in a few cases)
..
Nobody gets hurt.
..
Players and friends are pissed off, because they run out of luck in postapocalyptic game and their characters got hurt.
..
Sichr is not Uncouth, just acts like he is (actually, he is really nice guy IRL )

[Dracain]

No, that's just as easy to bring up in game as any other hindrance. Just because mages and adepts lose magic from ware doesn't mean that they should never have ware, don't benefit from ware, or don't want ware (in character at least). With sensitive system, when that big cartel boss rewards the group with a piece of pimped out delta cyber, the sensitive mage is left trying to figure out if it's worth the full essence cost or not while everyone else is rejoicing. Likewise when you piss off the same cartel and they pop a mysterious implant into you, you're going to get hit twice as hard. I get pissy when a player puts a flaw on his sheet and get's all hissy when it comes up in play. Then again, I'm a Die Hard style GM and most of the players that give me those issues want a God Mode style game.

I don't see that as "die hard", and I don't think people not wanting you to change their character is asking for god mode either.  I have seen players get very attached to their characters, and I have gotten attached to characters myself, and the idea that the GM is using his powers to change that can irritate players.  Admitted I understand giving consequences to a player or group that does something stupid, but it just seems like picking on someone for choosing that negative quality when they may have chosen it for any reason, though I doubt many mages will say they chose it so it would come back to haunt them.  Frankly I saw it as something was meant to limit use of augments, not something that means that the player should at some point o\have implants forced upon them aainst their will.  Not to mention, wouldn't it be cheaper for the mafia to put some kind of collar or bracelet that would kill them instantly if tampered with of the mafia willed it.  I mean, if the mafia are keeping them alive it is for a reason, so they don't want to weaken the mage by putting implants into them, and the mafia certainly would know that would happen, it is a major business focused on secrecy, they known about magic.  I make it clear to my players that I will respond accordingly if they do something stupid and makes someone strong angry, but I don't wanna mess with a players stats without some REALLY big reason, because while it is my campaign, it is their character. 

[Sichr]

Ah...
+1 for this
There is great difference if you force the cybeware into character because he took the quality but didnt deserved it (didnt made anything stupid or generally wrong), and giving the character cyberware Because he did, something stupid, or because he run out of luck in some kind of situation...or as a consequence of the storyline he understands and accepts. Thsoe are two different things, I hadnt seen the difference before you pointed this out. Well
Runner choosing this kind of negative quality must accept that there is a possibility it would have negative consequences for him.
Note that again we are talking about Sensitive system, while this thread is dedicated to antisocial characters, thus things like Uncouth/ Liar/ Prejudice/ all different kinds of poor self control flaws, which came to play much much more often than forcing some ware into the character.

[Irian]

I tend so see it a little differently: Taking the quality automatically has negative consequences, as the character, for example, may not take as much cyberware as he could otherwise. As every character, even mages, could gain from some cyberware-stuff, it really is a disadvantage, as it restricts the character. The character doesn't have to have cyberware forced into him to make it one. Of course, the negative quality would be a much bigger disadvantage for, let's say, a troll samurai than an elven shaman, but negative qualities don't have to cripple your primary skills to count. If someone takes incompetent, this already IS a negative thing, because he cannot do something. I don't have to force him into situations that would require him to do it anyway, just to make it count. Of course, if it happens, bad luck, but I wouldn't try to force him into such a situation deliberately.

Generally, I tend to see it like Dracain (+1), it's the player's character, not mine. I simply don't see it as my right to change the character if the player doesn't want it to happen. When I'm gming, I'm still just a player, nothing more. This was never a problem, as there are enough players who want something to happen to their characters, i'ts a roleplaying game, after all. There are certain games where player death is part of the game - for example Paranoia or CoC - but in Shadowrun this doesn't have to be the case (depending on what the players want). And of course: My game table is "Rainbows and Lollipops", but the ingame world can still be dark and evil, no problems there.

[JustADude]

Street gangers are always amazed by runners professionalism, so they always agree to negotiate.
Even if they don`t, they surrender to basic violence display.

I feel compelled to point out something here; a typical, well-built 400 BP runner is a f'ing monster by the standards of every-day people, and even most "common" criminals. The Runners who have been around the block enough to have an amount of Street Cred (aka, the stat that portrays professional reputation) worth mentioning are going to be routinely dealing with sudden violence and bloody death on a scale and intensity that would leave most people puking on their shoes at the horror of what they've just experienced.

That, as you might imagine, puts them squarely in the realm of "bigger fish" for your typical Ganger. To one canny enough to have survived to a position of leadership a group of experienced runners represent a severely non-trivial threat, both in terms of immediate violence and delayed reprisals, should he piss them off. On the other hand, having a positive relationship with them could gain him valuable allies in the form of some quid pro quo, or even simply having them available to hire at all.

A smart gang leader, assuming no previous conflicts of interests, would at least consider negotiating since a quick side-job as "payment for services rendered" that is utterly trivial to the PCs would likely be extremely dangerous, if not just impossible due to lack of technical skills, for a bunch of street thugs even two or three times the size of the group.

A stupid gang leader, one who insists on going straight to the shooting, is going to have hell on earth dropped in his lap when the Runners fight back. If anyone survives the next 3-6 seconds, they're going to be less "surrendering" and more "begging for their lives."

[Mirikon]

One caveat, Dude. Gangs have their own unwritten rules. Whether it is smart or not, disrespecting a gang leader in front of his gang forces him to lash out or lose face.

[CitizenJoe]

One caveat, Dude. Gangs have their own unwritten rules. Whether it is smart or not, disrespecting a gang leader in front of his gang forces him to lash out or lose face.

Thus the first step in negotiating with a gang is to head shot the leader.  The rest of the gang won't lose respect for a gang leader losing face that way.
http://youtu.be/3oKwg6W05MU

[Irian]

Doesn't sound like a good plan, as killing a member of a gang may result in a war with the rest... Beat him in a duel kind of fight, ok, but simply shooting any gang member is a dangerous move, imho.

[Mirikon]

Indeed. And heaven help you if you tried that, and the gang happened to be the Desolation Angels.