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Combat Mage Mystic Adept

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sway

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« on: <03-18-12/1915:20> »
Hey, been lurking for awhile now and decided to post to see if I could get some insights from the forum gurus, as it were.

I'm working on putting together a combat-oriented Mystic Adept (borrowing some ideas from UmaroVI's archetype thread... which was helpful) and I just wanted to see if there were any tips or warnings or "dude-you-totally-screwed-up" I should know before finishing up. One thing I'm really not sure of is which spells to attune to the combat fetish and the general spell selection at that. But I'm sort of new, so I figure there are more missteps then just that.


Unnamed Mystic Adept (in Progress)

RACE: Human
ATTRIBUTES:
B 5, A 2, R 4 (7), S 2, C 2, I 3, L 5 (7), W 5, E 2, M 5 (4)

Essence: 5.00
Initiative: 8 (10)
Iniative Pass: 1 (4)
Physical Damage Track:  11
Stun Damage Track: 11
Armor: 16 P / 11 S

ACTIVE SKILLS:
Binding (Fire Spirits) 1 (+2)
Computers 1
Counterspelling (Combat) 4 (6) (+2)
Data Search 1
Dodge 1
Etiquette 1
Intimidation 1
Perception 1
Spellcasting (Combat) 6 (+2)
Summoning (Fire Spirits) 1 (+2)

KNOWLEDGE SKILLS:
Magic Background 6
Magical Groups 4
Magical Phenomena 3
Magical Security Procedures 2
Matrix Chat Rooms 2
Parazoology 2
Safehouses 2
Spirits (Fire) 3

LANGUAGE SKILLS:
English (Mage Lingo) N (+2)

QUALITIES:
Positive:
Mystic Adept (Chaos Magic; C: Fire, D: Air, H: Earth, I: Man, M: Water; Drain: Willpower + Logic)
Mentor Spirit (Sun – Combat/Fire)
Restricted Gear (Power Foci)
Way of the Magician

Negative:
Incompetent (Bashing)
Spirit Bane (Spirits of Beasts)
Poor Self Control (Combat Monster)
Poor Self Control (Thrill Seeker)
Prejudice (Biased against Technomancers)
 
POWERS:   
Eidetic Senses (geasa), Improved Reflexes (Rating 3, geasa), Sorcerous Parry (Rating 2, geasa)

SPELLS: (-36BP)
Blizzard, Boom, Detect Enemies, Heal, Levitate, Light Grenade, Manabolt, Metal Wall, Physical Mask, Sandstorm, Screech, Smoke Cloud

AUGMENTATIONS:
Cyberware: Attention Coprocessor (Rating 3), Skillwires (Rating 2)
Bioware: Cerebral Boosters (Rating 2), Platelet Factories, Darardrenaline

MAGICAL GEAR:
Power Focus (Force Rating 4)
Combat Fetish
Geasa Talisman x3 (still deciding details)

MATRIX GEAR:
MetaLink with Vector Xim (/public mode, connected to Fake SIN); Novatech Airwave w/Iris Orb OS (/hidden mode, connected to runner identity); Programs: Empathy Software (Rating 3), FTL Matrixware Netwizard.

MUNDANE GEAR:
YNT Softweave Armored Jacket (Modifications: Chemical Protection 6, Fire Resistance 6, Nonconductive 6)  w/Form Fitting Body Armor (Modifications: Insulation 6) and SecureTech PPP System Forearm Guards (Modifications: Biomonitor), Leg and Arm Casings, Shin Guards, and Vitals Protector; Contact Lenses (Rating 2) w/ Skinlink, Flare Compensation, and Optical Vision Magnification; Earbuds (Rating 3) w/Skinlink, Audio Enhancement (Rating 3), and Spatial Recognizer; Goggles (Rating 4) with Skinlink, Image Link, Thermographic, Ultrasound and Vision Enhancement (Rating 3); Fake SIN w/accompanying Fake Licenses for Fetish, Foci, and Practicing Magic (all Rating 4); Lifestyle Low (1 Month).

CONTACTS (-5 BP)
Local Talismonger Shop Owner (3/2)
« Last Edit: <03-19-12/1035:02> by sway »

ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #1 on: <03-18-12/2137:47> »
I'm going to assume your Incompetent quality is for Banishing. That said, looks pretty good. I woyldnt want Thrill Seeker and Combat Monster, though. Too much room for one to trigger the other

UmaroVI

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« Reply #2 on: <03-19-12/0647:37> »
If you're going to be a more casting-oriented mystic adept, you might want to look into how your GM thinks Heightened Concentration works. If it lets you negate Sustaining penalties continuously, you would probably be better off using that and some buff spells (like Increase Reflexes spell rather than the adept power).

Actually, I'm not sure that power is worth it anyways. You could just be using a Health sustaining focus to sustain Increase Reflexes.

Other thoughts: In general, I'm not sure you're really getting much out of being a Mystic Adept rather than a pure mage. Your build kind of looks like you made a mostly good Magician, then tacked on Mystic Adept and sacrificed some casting for some mediocre abilities. Your focus is on boom-boom spells; the only Mystic Adept stuff that's worth it, IMO, is going to be Heightened Concentration (good versions) and Sorcerous Parry.

Light Grenade is crap. Smoke Cloud is a worse version of Sound Cloud.

You have too many redundant combat spells. You want one single-target P-damage elemental spell, one area P-damage elemental spell (so cut either Blizzard or Sandstorm). Stunbolt is better than Screech. Manabolt is bad and also redundant here. You should know Stunball or Soundwave so you have a good way to AE living people.

I assume you're planning on pirating Skillsofts, right? Don't pay full price for them.

Long-term, a Trauma Dampener would be very helpful to you; I don't think you can squeeze it in now but maybe after Alphawaring some stuff.
« Last Edit: <03-19-12/0710:17> by UmaroVI »

Tsuzua

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« Reply #3 on: <03-19-12/0956:21> »
A very nice start!

I would consider dropping the skills at 1 like computer, data search, etiquette and intimidation.  Computer and Data Search don't take advantage of your base logic score nine times out of ten and 6 dice isn't enough to make people notice with etiquette and intimidation.  I think those skills are better off taken as skillwires later on. 

While I think you're right about not starting with Cerebral Boosters 3, they should part of your upgrade plans.  Drain resist is one of the limiting factors on a caster so eventually you'll want to shell out the money for it.  What you'll want to drop for it I'm not sure, but you might want to just alphaware some of your other crud to make room.

sway

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« Reply #4 on: <03-19-12/1008:11> »
Thank you.

Just so you know, the method to my madness was basically thus (though I think I agree I probably went astray).

With the whole Mystic Adept thing, the nature of talisman geasa in relation to Foci was part of the draw (see below, like way at the end). Particularly with regards to Improved Reaction, Improved Reflexes as spells and Improved Relfexes as a power. I mean, based on what I've read on the forums, EVERYONE needs/wants Initiative Passes and better Reaction (for obvious reasons)... well, almost everyone.

There seem to be only four ways to get both of these: the two spells, bioware/cyberware combinations, drugs, and the adept power.

1. The spells: Costs 3 BP each (well sort of, I mean its not like you're likely NOT to take your maximum possible spells regardless of whether or not you take those two spell specifically) and 18 BP in sustaining foci (assuming two rating 3 foci). There is also the dubious advantage of being able to cast these on others (because then the question is, who are you running with that they don't have means of getting better reaction/initiative passes on their own? And if they are lacking, it is probably because they operate in a fashion that doesn't really need those boosts and you're better off using your magic elsewhere).

2. The bioware/cyberware: even with deltaware and a nutty GM willing to allow ridiculous houseruling of starting gear, this doesn't seem viable for any magic character, especially for the high-end full +3 initiative passes. Also, I see more benefit in using a single point of lost essense to pick up stuff to beef up dealing with the drain check anyway (cerebral enhancers, pain editor, daradrenaline, trauma damper, platlet factory)... in fact, UmaroVI' discussion of Summoning/Binding sold me on this - is losing 1 point of modification to your Magic skill tests worth a +3 bonus to your drain tests (cerebral enhancers and daradrenaline) and the ability to shake off drain (platlet factory). My conclusion was... absolutely.   

3. The drugs: Well, if you're going to play a character that partakes in drugs, they are a nice fallback, though carrying addiction risks which aren't really THAT bad. This strikes me as more of a fallback position though. Of course, if your GM allowed you to take Mysterious Implant (Permanent Infusion - Braveheart) with one of the more useful drugs as an addiction, that might change the whole dynamic.

4. The adept power: With geasa and Way of the Magician (either Artisan or Warrior powers), Improved Reflexes uses up 2 power points (and that's full tilt, giving you the full benefit of +3 Reaction and +3 Initiative Passes - the best you can basically hope for using any method besides a crazy permissive GM and Move-By-Wire 3).  So bare minimum your magic skill tests will all be -2. Plus if you're using Way of the Adept, then your +5 BP more expensive then a Magician (15 BP Magician vs. 10 Mystic Adept and 10 Way of the Magician), except that you're not spending 18 BP on two foci and you free up two spell slots for other things. So really you're 13 BP below the cost of a comparable Magician. Of course, assumingly (at least using my rationales, which may be fundamentally flawed - I am new after all) whether Magician or Mystic Adept, you've already eaten one point of essense in wares to beef your drain resistance. So if you're going mystic adept you're a full -3 to your potential Magic skill Ratings. THIS, is where things breakdown (for me at least). Way of the Magician strongly encourages you to have at least two powers from your chosen "way". This of course requires at least (and unless you're hardcapping [I think that's the term you guys use in the forum], also at most) another -1 penalty to Magic skill tests (a total of -4, but this assuming a comparable combat mage is at least -1 [possibly -2 if they took other augments])... though this can be partially shaved off, at least for Counterspelling via taking Sorcerous Parry (so in terms of counterspelling you should be only -1 of a comparable combat mage or possibly equal - for example the Burnout Combat Mage archetype listed by UmaroVI is -2 from wares and has Counterspell 4, so in that regard the the two characters are basically equipose). So with getting a Geas for Sorcerous Parry, we're at 2.75 power point and thus have .25 power points to spend, though in reality, we're have .5 power points to spend because obviously we're going to choose a .5 power from either the Artisan's or Warrior's Way. This is basically one of the places where my own character is "still in progress". I have Eidetic Senses listed but I'm not committed to that. In reality, my final build will probably use Enhanced Ability... I just haven't assessed what that ability should be. One that screams out to me is Hacking... using the same AR-style hacking as UmaroVI's "Generalist" archetype. It would take some finnese (more than I've had luck with so far), but I belive the Mystic Adept could make up for not having the normal combat mage's potential astral prowess by have very strong and useful AR-Hacking potential. Of course, there is also high Logic score exploiting skills like Hardware for more subtle B&E then simply melting maglocks, or Chemistry (to bring drugs back onto the table) or number of other possible technical skills with broad applications (even good skill in Demolitions has a certain charm for combining with a blast-happy mystic adept - though Notoriety would invariably develop really fast - Mr. Johnson may not like a runner who blows up literally everything in their wake - though for Toxic Path mage... LOL). But now I've rambled into more general comparison issues (but I was headed there anyway).
 
So anyway, removing drugs from the table (because they don't seem to favor either concept) and assuming both that comparable mages (i.e. those built for largely the same purposes) will have 1 point of lost essense (though UmaroVI's burnout mage has 2 points of loss) and a mystic adept will probably use geasa and have Sorcerous. A mage spends 13 more BP (12 of which have to come out of your 50 BP gear limit) and has to use up two more spell slots than a Mystic Adept (which isn't that big a deal I suppose), but on all Magic Skill tests except Counterspelling will have a +3 edge on tests (or in the burnout mage's case +2) and access to astral stuff (though for the purposes of comparable concepts astral potential can be offset with hacking potential or something similar - and in fact, the adept will likely be better in those niche areas than the comparable mage is in the astral niche). That +3 (from what I gather) basically equates to the comparable combat mage generally getting one more hit on skill tests over the mystic adept (negliable difference in terms of counterspelling). Finally, there is also the fact that a comparable mage physically carries around 2 foci, while the mystic adept carrying around 3 talismans. I personally see this factor as favoring the mystic adept. Three items as mundane as "a quartz crystal set in a silver medallion on a gold chain" seems like they would be less problematic and costly to replace than two Rating 3 Sustaining Foci and in both cases "loss of widget" is the concern. Of course, this assumes you're not completely off your rocker and make your talismans nigh irreplaceable. 

To me, the comparison boils down to 13 BP (12 being gear BP - I only mention this because it seems relevant to what types of wares the comparable builds can have versus each other, especially given that the assumption is that both are already using 20 gear BP and 5 other BP just on having a Power Foci) less required spending with easier to replace lost widget handicaps, versus one additional hit in magic skills other than Counterspelling. Of course, the comparison could be shifted to one purely of versatility over costs if the Mystic Adept takes the Expert Aspected Magician (Combat/Fire Spirits) drawback. Then its basically just casting versatility vs. 13 less BP and easier to replace widgets.

Hmm... I think I see you're point, as on the whole, I don't think a loss of either 1 hit on casting or casting versatility is balanced by the freed-up BP and easier to replace widgets (especially since if the GM is targeting your widgets, they are probably going to make replacing them equally a hassle regardless of what logic and pricing/attuning rules would suggest). I think the only way I'm going to keep with this build and not go full mage is if find that way to finesse good hacking/hardware/chemistry in as well (hacking seems like a strong option simply because of the AR hacking using physical Initiative).

As for spells, well, you've given me a lot to think over in terms of that too. Again, thanks.   

UmaroVI

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« Reply #5 on: <03-19-12/1024:55> »
I think the main thing you're missing about the spells vs. power is, first, that 2 PP is a much, much bigger opportunity cost than 2 spells (as in, 2 PP is worth more than 20 BP, because of the very low cap on how many PP you can have), and second, that Increase Reflexes (spell) isn't +IPs - it is +IPs and +Initiative. Once you have 2-3 IPs, initiative is worth more than extra IPs, because of how rocket-launcher-tag-y SR combat is. F3 IncRef+IncRea is +2 IP, +2 Initiative, +3 Reaction for a total of 3 IPs, +3 Reaction, and +5 (total) initiative. IR 3 (Power) totals 4 IPs, and +3 reaction - and +2 initiative is better than a 4th IP. Going first and flattening a good chunk of the opposition with a well-placed Stunball before they get a chance to start shooting is much more valuable than having an extra action late in the combat turn.

I think you can make a worthwhile Mystic Adept who is focused on blasty-type combat if you have access to the good version of Heightened Concentration. At that point, Sorcerous Parry might be worth it. Otherwise, I would stick with Magician if your goal is boom-boom spells.

sway

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« Reply #6 on: <03-19-12/1054:13> »
I think the main thing you're missing about the spells vs. power is, first, that 2 PP is a much, much bigger opportunity cost than 2 spells (as in, 2 PP is worth more than 20 BP, because of the very low cap on how many PP you can have), and second, that Increase Reflexes (spell) isn't +IPs - it is +IPs and +Initiative. Once you have 2-3 IPs, initiative is worth more than extra IPs, because of how rocket-launcher-tag-y SR combat is. F3 IncRef+IncRea is +2 IP, +2 Initiative, +3 Reaction for a total of 3 IPs, +3 Reaction, and +5 (total) initiative. IR 3 (Power) totals 4 IPs, and +3 reaction - and +2 initiative is better than a 4th IP. Going first and flattening a good chunk of the opposition with a well-placed Stunball before they get a chance to start shooting is much more valuable than having an extra action late in the combat turn.

I think you can make a worthwhile Mystic Adept who is focused on blasty-type combat if you have access to the good version of Heightened Concentration. At that point, Sorcerous Parry might be worth it. Otherwise, I would stick with Magician if your goal is boom-boom spells.

Actually, I took that into account (I mean, I think maybe I've given the impression I'm trying to optimize more than I actually am... maybe). As I mentioned, I sort of heavily drew from UmaroVI (your) archetypes and all of the magical ones except transhuman mystic (which isn't really a blaster but does have pretty high initiative at 14) seemed to indicate Initiative 10 (enhanced) with 3 (passes) was good (even the showy Magical Rocker who seems quite blasty)... so I assumed initiative 10 (always) with 4 passes was even better. Just as fast initiative with an additional action each round too. Is 10 really not good enough? How high should I be aiming?
« Last Edit: <03-19-12/1056:07> by sway »

UmaroVI

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« Reply #7 on: <03-19-12/1059:28> »
It's not so much that initiative 10 with 4 passes isn't good enough, as that initiative 10 with 4 passes not much all that much better than initiative 10 with 3 passes, and is not as good as initiative 12 with 3 passes.

sway

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« Reply #8 on: <03-19-12/1110:25> »
True enough.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #9 on: <03-19-12/1312:47> »
I still hold fast to my opinion on the matter of drop those implants. You're Awakened, and aside from a few background scenarios, it just isn't worth wasting points like that (considering you have to buy up that Magic attribute, only to sac it off for those implants). I still say be augmented or be Awakened, but don't do both unless it is required for the concept.
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Tsuzua

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« Reply #10 on: <03-19-12/1331:36> »
If you went mage, here are the building differences (net cost 13 BP):
5 fewer spent on qualities
18 spent on 2 force 3 sustaining foci
2 spells switched to Increase Reaction and Increase Reflexes

The result of these changes:
+3 dice with all magical skill tests
-2 dice on counterspelling including the all-important passive spell defense counterspelling
+2 Initiative (increase Reaction to 7 with Increase Reaction, get +2 Initiative from Improved Reflexes)
-1IP (going from 4IP to 3IP)

On the whole, I'll go with magician, but it's extremely close.  I wouldn't fault you staying mystic adept because there's some goodies there.

As for why the 4th IP doesn't matter much, it's basically in SR at most levels of optimization (baring the extreme low and some varieties of the super high end), you can reliably take out someone of the same power level in a pass either though a double tap, full burst, spell, or summon.  Thus by the end of the third IP, you've taken out 3 others.  Unless you're outnumbered 3 to 1, there won't be anyone left to zap.  And if you were outnumbered 3 to 1, either the enemy is so below you that you can take their shots (since this means 6 shots after pass 3) and still be standing thus you can afford to take your time, or you would have never made it to the 4th IP anyways. 

There are cases where having a 4th IP is useful.  For example, if you're facing a quick but steady stream of enemies (for example if dudes come in every phase), more IPs are useful since you can clean out just arrived dudes on the fourth IP.  If you have a large IP and defense advantage but outnumbered (and your foes only have SA or melee attacks), then you can take active defense measured until you can attack freely on later IPs.  Interesting enough, that's one of the few cases active defenses help as well.

That said, geasa + way Improved Reflexes 3 is one of the best ways to get 4 IPs.  If you dropped to Improved Reflexes 2, you'll get only .75PP back and honestly, there isn't much useful to spend on them elsewhere (besides good heightened concentration).  If I could figure out a way to squeeze in Mind over Matter Logic -> Agility, that would be neat.  Then you could drop your agility to 1 and rock with an 7 agility.  Grab some infiltration skillwires and you are an fair sneaker.

Quote
I still hold fast to my opinion on the matter of drop those implants. You're Awakened, and aside from a few background scenarios, it just isn't worth wasting points like that (considering you have to buy up that Magic attribute, only to sac it off for those implants). I still say be augmented or be Awakened, but don't do both unless it is required for the concept.
The magic loss from ware does make ware more expensive than for mundanes.  But it's still a good deal.

For example, pretend that the OP's character could buy an adept power for 1 PP:
+3 Perception Rolls
+2 Logic (and therefore +2 drain tests)
Ability to use skillwires
-1 physical box when taking 2 or more boxes of physical
+1 to Willpower tests (and therefore +1 drain tests)
Ability to upgrade in the future using a resource you otherwise don't really need (Money)

That's an amazing adept power.  Now the lowered force for spells hurts.  Force 8 stunbolt will usually take someone out, but it's more iffy than say Force 10 stunbolt.  Spirit summoning is less affected since force 10 spirits with lucky rolls can eat half your face. 

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #11 on: <03-19-12/1349:21> »
Just seems more to me that the point of Adepts are to be enhanced without implants. I'll grant you that some of the adept powers are overpriced (mainly Improved Physical Attribute beyond racial maximum), but that's easy enough to fix through a house rule--though it should be fixed in the books, and the Way of the Adept qualities should be free like the author originally intended.
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sway

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« Reply #12 on: <03-19-12/1350:56> »
I don't know. A lot of the more useful to Magic User augmentations are pretty Essence cost light even before alpha/beta/delta/whatever. I mean, you can get like 1.3 essence of wares (.7 of one type, .6 of the other) for a single lost point of essence/magic, which if you haven't hard-capped is only 10 BP. You can work a lot of stuff into those 1.3 points. Both from a player standpoint and putting myself in the shoes of a Shadowrun denizen... I could see the attraction, especially for Chaos Magic tradition practitioners.

Edit: Also, the more I think about it. Even though I kind of just threw-in Skillwires... I can see that as being a really good investment long term. Given how much I'll be needing to put Karma elsewhere... pilfering/pirating the occassional soft that I can use on certain missions may be the only way for my character to have a passable (not good... just passable) skill set as things progress.
« Last Edit: <03-19-12/1356:54> by sway »

UmaroVI

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« Reply #13 on: <03-19-12/1806:29> »
If Skillsofts are pirateable, Skillwires are a perfectly good purchase. The reason none of the Archetypes have them is that piracy is banned in the SRM ruleset, and unpirated skillsofts are really expensive and something you don't want to bother with until you are already kitted out with nearly everything else you might want.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #14 on: <03-19-12/1809:14> »
If you went mage, here are the building differences (net cost 13 BP):
5 fewer spent on qualities
18 spent on 2 force 3 sustaining foci
2 spells switched to Increase Reaction and Increase Reflexes

The result of these changes:
+3 dice with all magical skill tests
-2 dice on counterspelling including the all-important passive spell defense counterspelling
+2 Initiative (increase Reaction to 7 with Increase Reaction, get +2 Initiative from Improved Reflexes)
-1IP (going from 4IP to 3IP)


I don't think this is all that close. +2 Initiative is better than a 4th IP, and +3 with all magical skill tests is a ton better than 2 extra counterspelling dice. You could in theory even switch Spellcasting and Counterspelling from 6/4 to 4/6 and then get
+1 Spellcasting
+3 Summoning/Binding
+2 Initiative
-1 IP
That's a clear improvement and well worth 13 bp. I actually think it is more of an improvement to focus on spellcasting and have 6 spellcasting/4 counterspelling, mind you, but this is just to make it easier to compare.