[Cass100199]

I was thinking that for the next SR game I run, I wanted to have the tone of the MI movies, The Losers, Taken, etc. I'm going for that small group of very bad people who are competant operators so on and so forth. I'm not stressing a Spec Ops background, but I imagine that at least a couple of people will have that. I'm not looking for deadly serious as Rambo, but not as campy as The A Team.

I had two ideas for chargen. I was thinking of either karmagen with a high karma allotment or just letting the players make the characters they want within this kind of setting and then having to buy karma. Thoughts and ideas? If I do karmagen, any suggestions n how much?

[All4BigGuns]

I was thinking that for the next SR game I run, I wanted to have the tone of the MI movies, The Losers, Taken, etc. I'm going for that small group of very bad people who are competant operators so on and so forth. I'm not stressing a Spec Ops background, but I imagine that at least a couple of people will have that. I'm not looking for deadly serious as Rambo, but not as campy as The A Team.

I had two ideas for chargen. I was thinking of either karmagen with a high karma allotment or just letting the players make the characters they want within this kind of setting and then having to buy karma. Thoughts and ideas? If I do karmagen, any suggestions n how much?

I suggest you don't do karma generation at all (my personal preference is to drop it down the deepest darkest hole available), but if you like that generation, at the very least let your players build using the superior generation system (BP) if they desire.

[bangbangtequila]

...I prefer the karmagen system every time, for all character types, and find it produces more rounded and complete characters. Personal preference aside, high Karma allotment is a great way to do it. I would recommend something like one free "Aptitude"  and "Restricted Gear" quality, 800 Karma, and maybe some free Nuyen.

Whatever you do, do NOT use different generation builds. Inequality online = raging. If the players you select prefer BP, go for it, but if you would rather Karmagen, there are more then enough great players who would not mind using either.

[bangbangtequila]

I do not get how people consider the karma generation even worth two cents.
[snip]
All in all, everything said on both sides are just opinions.

Suit yourself. I love it, I really do. It's less optimization-based, simply because it costs the same to do things in game as it does at creation. As long as that disparity exists, some things are more or less efficient, and you will see min-maxing as players exploit that. Period.

On top of that, it puts some much needed value on high skills and attributes. 7's run you a mere 24 BP, compared to the 7th point costing 28 karma. You see fewer starting skill groups of 4, fewer skills set at 6, and fewer soft-capped attributes, because it's no longer "the most efficient" way to do it.

Does it require house ruling? Sure. The ones you listed are about right, but it's not like the necessary changes aren't provided on this website at the cost of a few keystrokes.

[JustADude]

Can we please not turn this into another BP vs KarmaGen argument? Please?

That said, I do think that for this specific situation, involving extremely experienced Runners Karmagen is the way to go. Allow me to explain:

If Missions can be taken as at all accurate, then Runners earn somewhere between 100 and 150 Karma per year they've been actively running and, for a game where you want characters on par with the MI crew or the father from Taken, you've got to figure that they've been around a good long while... though obviously not all of that would be on "active duty" status. Call it 1250 Karma (standard 750 base + 500 Karma) between "actual" Karma and "Net Worth" in gear, just to be nice and round.

This is much simpler than trying to do a 400 BP CGen process and then giving them separate piles of Karma and Nuyen to spend... especially since not everyone is going to need/want the same proportions of Nuyen and Karma.

Now, for gear, I suggest setting the Availability to a blanket 20, 33 w/ Restricted Gear (to equate the standard 12/20), then let them spend 300 Karma (3x normal) on Nuyen. That should be enough to get everyone a fairly beefy, high-end loadout, while keeping them from getting too out of hand.

I'd also recommend waiving the "Generation Caps" for these builds and allowing Initiation/Submersion for the Awakened. These guys aren't beginners, after all, and this way you get characters that actually look like experienced Runners. And, yeah, I'd go ahead and HR back in the freebie Knowledge Points. Possibly also hand them all a premade list of mutual "agency" contacts in addition to their individual homies.

Of course, this is going off the XP rate for Missions modules, which may or may not reflect where you actually want them to be. Consider this my offering as a rough guideline.

[Mirikon]

Why reinvent the wheel? There's already an advancement system in place, so just use it. 400BP, and then give them X karma and Y nuyen, allow them to take gear up to whatever availability you feel comfortable with and initiate/submerge if they want, and let them follow the rules in the core book to advance their character. Simple and easy. Hell, all it would take is adding a couple extra calculations to my Excel sheet, and it would be set up and ready to go. Switching everything over to karmagen and then tweaking the system from there just needlessly complicates things, instead of "Take the basic rules, relax a couple things, and then here's some karma and nuyen to advance your character, as normal in the rules." No fuss, no muss, and everyone knows what the deal is.

Sure, augmented types tend to advance by getting better, shinier 'ware, and mages/technos advance primarily through karma. But if your street sam can't find a way to spend some karma, or your mage has no need of nuyen, then they probably aren't in the right headspace for a high level game, anyways.

[All4BigGuns]

Why reinvent the wheel? There's already an advancement system in place, so just use it. 400BP, and then give them X karma and Y nuyen, allow them to take gear up to whatever availability you feel comfortable with and initiate/submerge if they want, and let them follow the rules in the core book to advance their character. Simple and easy. Hell, all it would take is adding a couple extra calculations to my Excel sheet, and it would be set up and ready to go. Switching everything over to karmagen and then tweaking the system from there just needlessly complicates things, instead of "Take the basic rules, relax a couple things, and then here's some karma and nuyen to advance your character, as normal in the rules." No fuss, no muss, and everyone knows what the deal is.

Sure, augmented types tend to advance by getting better, shinier 'ware, and mages/technos advance primarily through karma. But if your street sam can't find a way to spend some karma, or your mage has no need of nuyen, then they probably aren't in the right headspace for a high level game, anyways.

Exactly. The Mages/Technos are probably going to be living higher on the hog than the mundanes and initiating/submerging (though those high rating foci can get ridiculously expensive), the mundanes are getting better at a wider variety of skills through their karma added after (while improving their specialties through better gear/implants). Everything evens out.

[Makki]

Do NOT give them two different systems to build their chars. Either give them 600BP or 1000karma (arbitrary numbers).
I myself prefer karmagen, but I don't shout at people who think the math in BP is easier. BP is totally fine in things like Missions, where karma income will be slow and steady, so players are forced to make fairly rounded characters from beginning and cannot expect to polish flaws quickly with karma.

But don't give them both. You will end up with players building a BP character with 5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1 attributes (What kind of person is that? An insect from RW has better mental stats), because they can advance their low attributes cheaply with karma in a minute.

Back to your question, some good suggestions where made.
~1000 karma
high Availability limit
extra cash, ~half a mill
increase limit for nuyen2karma

with that kind of cash, I'd give my Hermetic mage some nice Cerebralboosters and Traumadamper plus Cybereyes. For example.

[All4BigGuns]

But don't give them both. You will end up with players building a BP character with 5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1 attributes (What kind of person is that? An insect from RW has better mental stats), because they can advance their low attributes cheaply with karma in a minute.

This is where you look at the sheets, and on seeing this say, "No."  Though better way if such a problem exists in your group, is to have them build the 400 BP character, and then give the karma and extra money AFTER the base character is created. (Though the number of people who'll do the "5 5 5 5 1 1 1 1" is pretty low.)

[JustADude]

"Take the basic rules, relax a couple things, and then here's some karma and nuyen to advance your character, as normal in the rules." No fuss, no muss, and everyone knows what the deal is.

Okay, my editorializing aside, here's what what i just said boils down to:

• German Errata'd KarmaGen
  (aka, "use the Karma prices in the book and 1 Karma = 2,500¥")
• 1250 Karma build; 300 Karma Nuyen cap.
• 20 Availability (33 w/ Restricted Gear)
• Free Knowledge as per BPGen.
• No "CGen Restriction" limits.

That's pretty easy to remember, doncha think?

[Mirikon]

Makki, yes, there are people who try to game the system. This is why you make them come up with a DAMN good reason why they're character is like that, or you kick the player down the stairs and make them redo their sheet. That problem becomes a non-issue with the most basic DM oversight. This is the kind of things DMs are supposed to be doing anyways, regardless of setup. If something feels hinky, tell them no, and if they can't deal with that, do you really want them in your game? Hell, even with a regular build you have people who try to minmax their way to uberness. I had to explain to someone why a troll drake warrior's way adept wasn't going to fly, since in his dracoform he could one shot anything short of a battleship, but he could do absolutely nothing else besides combat. It was, in a word, obscene. So yes, DM oversight is key. It always has been.

JustADude, not really, since I know the BP rules, and I know the karma advancement rules, and I don't know karmagen, and I certainly don't know German, nor do I particularly trust an errata of a German product translated into English. And I think anyone who's ever read a manual for something built in another country can agree with me on that point. Again, there's a mechanic already there, that works. Why go through a whole bunch of trouble, involving foreign errata, when you can take the system already in place, relax availability a bit, and then give people X Karma and Y nuyen? And, of course, administer headslaps to people who try to game the system. But hell, that's half the fun of DMing! I use my hardcover books for headslapping. Makes more of an impact when that DMG whacks a player wanting to be a half-troll pixie sorcerer doesn't get the hint.

[JustADude]

Eh, to each their own.

The important part is that we're agreeing on the general framework: Give 'em a wad of extra resources that they'd have gotten during their "off screen" careers and let them build their characters up like they would if they'd been playing them for a couple years of game-time.

[The Big Peat]

First off, I refer the gentleman at the top to the 'High Powered Games' thread - it contains some good ideas, and it also contains this argument in full.

My advice would be this -

What level of power do you want the characters at? This is hard to express imo, so go to Street Legends (if you have it) and leaf through until you find stat profiles that fit what you had in mind. Or some other source of high powered profiles, I think there are some kicking around somewhere.

Then, either

a) Reverse engineer them through chummer in karmagen, work out roughly how much they'd cost, and give that much karma to the runners.

b) Point your players to them and say 'Make characters like unto these. If they are more powerful, then I shall tell you to start again with the Nerf Bat of Learning'

Honestly, I'd say go for B if you trust your players well enough - it means less time on your part, less on theirs. Elsewise, A should be fine.

edit: Having just done this for my own amusement, I got Thorn out at roughly 2,500 karma before I lost interest and decided to stop entering knowledge skills and wondering whether his insane Magic/Initiation thing that Chummer won't accept counter-balanced Enemies (numerous) in terms of points cost. So, uhm, maybe pick someone saner from near the start of the book...

[JustADude]

edit: Having just done this for my own amusement, I got Thorn out at roughly 2,500 karma before I lost interest and decided to stop entering knowledge skills and wondering whether his insane Magic/Initiation thing that Chummer won't accept counter-balanced Enemies (numerous) in terms of points cost. So, uhm, maybe pick someone saner from near the start of the book...

You've got to do Magic 6, Initiation 6, Magic 12, Initiation 8, Magic 14, since you can never have Initiation higher higher than Magic or Magic higher than Essence + Initiation. As for the Enemies... Chummer makes you spec them out with per enemy. C'est la vie.

....

Also, as an unrelated and amusing thought,  a Spike Baby should, theoretically, have somewhere over 4,400 Karma, using the using the 100-150 karma/year rule.... 2072-2010=62 years minimum, -18 to grow up to the 750 Karma mark = 44 years of running. Older Spike Babies, from closer to 1910 than 2010, and ones that have drifted closer to the 150 karma end of things, would have significantly more.

What's the point of this? Don't mess with that grumpy elf wearing clothes a century-and-a-half out of date that thinks computers are new-fangled contraptions.

[Cass100199]

Cool. Thanks for the input. What I see for these types of characters are the same people you see working for today's private military companies. Most of them have a spec ops background, with some cops and paramedics with SWAT experience. I'm trying to find that balance between experienced operators and "only 20 people in the world can make that shot and I know 6 of them personally". I'm glad someone mentioned the magic element as I tend to forget that. Either of the things I'm thinking of would be great for fighter types, but I get the impression I'd be hosing hackers and magic users as they need karma and money, whereas the fighter and face types could just blow nuyen and get on with it.