[SwampFox]

What Joe wrote:

I refute magic claims because even by your estimates, it is one person in a thousand.  And of those, far fewer are performing the blood magic.  Statistically speaking, it is an anomaly.

Aztlan combat mages do not have a sack of babies that they sacrifice for casual spells, they have volunteers... probably well paid, but still... who are there to support the magician while he is defending his country. 

Man eating trees are just one more example of governments using plants and animals in a military role.  This goes back to the day after man discovered horticulture.  There are hedges and briars, the British once made an 'impenetrable' thicket of thorns that spanned all of India to control the salt trade.   They still use thorny acacia walls to protect settlements in Africa.  Poisonous plants are used in various roles too.  Ignoring that, Nature has created its own man killing trees.  There is a species of Eucalyptus indigenous to Australia that grows to over 300 feet tall and during droughts  will shed limbs half the diameter of the trunk.  There are trees which exude a toxin into the surroundings so that it doesn't have to compete with other plants for sunlight, there's a company that planted acres of this stuff for pulp wood and wiped out entire ecosystems.   

I think that you are missing a more important fact with the man eating trees.  Aztlan created a magic tree... take a moment to really let that sink in.  They created a magic organism.  This is not just a one off quirk, they made enough of it that they can deploy it as a defense mechanism.  If they can make a magic tree, what else can they make?

"Inflict no harm" ... alright you completely missed my point.  Everyone inflicts harm.  So by that logic, everyone is evil.  If everyone is evil, what's your justification for action against any specific group?

I didn't make up that definition of evil, I pulled it right off of Wikipedia, and before you poo poo wikipedia, it has been shown to be 98% accurate compared to college texts. 

When I see things like 99% of people consider such and such evil, I think that they are severely overestimating their case.  First of all, the Aztlaners don't think its evil, that's a big chunk of the population right there.  Then if you go overseas, Asia doesn't care, particularly the Bhudists. The NAN can't acknowledge blood magic is evil because they were founded on it (the Great Ghost Dance).  Africa is in no position to be the moral high ground... That leaves CAS, UCAS, Europe and Amazonia... and CAS and Amazonia are biased for political reasons.  Which leaves the UCAS and Europe... which means that Blood Magic is evil in the opinion of the Puritanical Western philosophy... big shock.

This is what I want you to take away from this discussion:
Cardboard evil is fine for a Saturday morning cartoon where you need to clearly show who to root for within the half hour time slot, but you can do better than that when telling a bigger grander story where other people can interact with it.  Yes, Aztechnology is a bad guy, but just one of many.  Yes, Aztechnology has in the past and will in the future be involved with horribly unpalatable things, but these things are not the ends, they are the means to accomplish some greater goal.  As a Runner, have actionable evidence before you act against any megacorp, of course that evidence could be a 10K nuyen deposit.

What I read:

Trollolololololol U Mad?

[Mirikon]

The magicians in AZT may be one in a thousand, but when they're the ones in charge, that argument becomes moot.

And then there's the matter of the Dragon. An eastern dragon that has been Corrupted by Horrors, if not actually changed in one of Verjigorm's cocoons.

[Angelone]

Also they didn't create the trees they just use them.

[CitizenJoe]

Now 4th edition might be giving out metamagic like candy, but back in the day, blood magic was extremely rare. It was a metamagic ability but it was a secret one.  Take the population of Aztlan, divide by 10,000 (or 1000) to get the magicians, factor out the ones that are not initiated, then factor out the ones in other traditions, etc.  You end up with a handful of people even capable of using blood magic. These are the warrior caste.  If you don't agree that they are a very very small group, we simply have no basis for discussion here... we're simply talking about two entirely different settings (and that may well be true, I'm an older edition grognard).

From a practical standpoint, you need a surrogate to take the drain for you.  That surrogate needs to be restrained.  In a combat scenario, you can't practically drag around an unwilling restrained person.  That is why they have volunteers to soak the drain for the combat blood mage.  Note that spells that can use blood magic are different from regular spells and you can't use the same formula without the sacrifice. And if you want to be nasty and efficient about it, you could use a shapeshifter or some other regenerating creature to soak the drain.  There is also a story in the sports section I believe about how one of the top athletes, after winning that Aztlan game, tore out his own heart and sacrificed it.  That is why I say they use volunteers.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they take criminals and shadowrunners attacking their facilities as a sign of volunteering, but taking time out of combat to grab someone is going to get you killed.

Blood mages do not run Aztechnology.  They are a tool that exists to serve Aztlan and Aztechnology.  The ability to throw a nasty fireball is something every two bit lieutenant in the armed forces has with a simple radio call.  That isn't what lets you run a company.

Let me make this clear, I'm not saying that they are good guys, on the contrary they are bad, but evil is not the term I put on corporations.  Also, other corporations do far worse on a grander scale than the little pockets of magical assault that the rest of you are harping on.  Aztechnology does far worse stuff on a mundane scale than it does magically.

[Nath]

As far as I saw, most sources say the only publicly acknowledged sacrifice are criminal executions. There are rumors and intelligence reports on secret sacrifices, but the public certainly doesn't get to know about those. Dunkelzahn's Will outed Aztlan and Aztechnology use of blood magic, but not what it exactly is and how frequent it could be (I'd compare that to international campaigns calling on to US and other countries to stop the manufacture and use of cluster munitions: does everyone now believe US military and police fire dozens of those every week?).

See Seattle Sourcebook page 57, Shadowbeat page 62 (my favorite part), Aztlan pages 90-92, New Seattle page 90, Corporate Download page 48 and 128 (where it says blood mages should be grade 8 initiate minimum, which givie an idea of how rare they should be at least back then), Street Magic page 36 and 139 (the only one I found who seem to suggest sacrifice are much more widespread), Runner Havens page 74, Corporate Guide page 75, Seattle 2072 page 161, War! page 29.

[Angelone]

The blood mages I know off the top of my head are a 6th and 7th grade initiate. The Vicar General from Colombian Subterfuge and the guy from DotA Midnight. IIRC Darke was only a 4th grade initiate.

[Nath]

Darke was 6th grade initiate in Threats. However, there was a zeroth grade in 2nd edition IIRC, which would make his actual grade 7 in 3rd or 4th edition. The Blood Gestalt mage from the same book only had an average grade of 3 (but the way the Gestalt operated gave them together a virtual grade of 30). So yes, that's not consistent with Corporate Download.

Shadowrun lack in places of an unified scale for NPC Initiation Grade. I usually compare the suggested blood mages grade to the Ares and Novatech special forces in the same book (at least grade 3, except for Novatech Black Omega elite combat mages, which are grade 5 minimum with some of them skilled in cybermancy) but there's room for an argument here. The point stays the same, not every Aztlan or Aztechnology mage ought to be a blood mage.

[Angelone]

Argh! I want all my books!

I agree not all Azzie mages should be blood mages, but there are enough in places of power where they can't be discounted. The Vicar General for instance is in charge of the state religion or at least the path of the sun, which is a very high ranking position.

[Mirikon]

Not all Azzie mages are blood mages. Only the important ones are.

[CitizenJoe]

I agree not all Azzie mages should be blood mages, but there are enough in places of power where they can't be discounted. The Vicar General for instance is in charge of the state religion or at least the path of the sun, which is a very high ranking position.

The Church exists because it is a tool of the State.  That doesn't mean that the influence moves up the power chain.

It can, and you're very welcome to make it so if that's what you want, but it isn't a foregone conclusion.

Anyway, trying to come back to the OP:  Dunkelzahn (The Big D) comments with some other power payers in Aztlan.  There are numerous rumors about a dragon being in the upper ranks of Aztechnology but D keeps denying any knowledge of it... and then we find out that he WAS in the upper ranks and he was a dragon.  Talk about trolling.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Two things, here.

Blood mages do not run Aztechnology.  They are a tool that exists to serve Aztlan and Aztechnology.  The ability to throw a nasty fireball is something every two bit lieutenant in the armed forces has with a simple radio call.  That isn't what lets you run a company.

Your argument is that Aztechnology, as defined by its corporate policies and practices, is not evil.  You have failed/refused at every turn to address our statements in regards to those corporate policies and practices, instead essentially indicating that 'single individuals/small groups do not a corporation make.'  While you are correct in the general sense, you fail (again) in the specific fact that corporate policies are created by single individuals and/or small groups.

You seem to concede that blood magic is evil.  Aztechnology corporate policy not only permits blood magic among its rank-and-file, it actively encourages it, in order to not waste corporate resources (effort on the part of its mages).  Since you are willingly and repeatedly blind / trolling, let us do a run-down of the top corporations.  Since it's you, let's include all the megacorporations we've known and loved/hated since First Edition.

• Saeder-Krupp: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.
• Ares: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.
• Fuchi: Neither permitted nor encouraged blood magic.
• Yamatetsu/Evo: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.
• Shiawase: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.
• Renraku: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.
• Mitsuhama: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.
• Novatech/NeoNET: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.
• CATCo: Neither permitted nor encouraged blood magic.
• Wuxing: Neither permits nor encourages blood magic.

Did I miss any?  Besides the zillion AA-rated and other lesser fish -- none of whom either permit or encourage blood magic.  Aztechnology corporate practice legalizes and encourages a reprehensible, corrupt, and foul practice.

Let's say that was, oh, I don't know -- theft.  Or carjacking.  Or drug dealing.  Or assault.  (Please note we're staying away from the more serious and sensitive crimes, here.)  Let's say that was happening in your town, and that the cops not only were permitting it, they were encouraging it.  "Hey, Joe, I noticed you didn't buy any cocaine this week.  Why is that?  Are you unpatriotic?"  When your car gets stolen, are you going to shrug and start walking to work because the desk sergeant got his payoff from it, or are you going to start calling the cops corrupt?

Let me make this clear, I'm not saying that they are good guys, on the contrary they are bad, but evil is not the term I put on corporations.  Also, other corporations do far worse on a grander scale than the little pockets of magical assault that the rest of you are harping on.  Aztechnology does far worse stuff on a mundane scale than it does magically.

I'm sorry, does this make any of it any better?  Ares execs, all the way up to Damien Knight, are on the verge of getting indicted and thrown in prison -- if, y'know, its own people don't riot and string the f***ers up by their necks for being <<redacted for foul language>>  -- for experimenting on insect spirits.  Lofwyr and Buttercup have close, personal discussions with people within their companies who are using other sentients as experimental subjects.  Similar things happen in similar places -- because no other corporation holds its own puppet country that has significant amounts of territory.

Do sections of other corporations do bad things too?  Yes.  Do they get punished?  Sometimes, eventually, yes.  Does 'punishment' for doing 'bad things' happen in Aztechnology?  No.  Completely ignoring the toxic magical practices, the chemical fouling of a big chunk of their own territory in order to disrupt an internal revolution because people wanted to be heard, Aztechnology does not try to punish wrongdoers within its corporate structure; it spins the information, then asks whether or not the wrongdoing can be made profitable.

If you honestly think that any of these practices are somehow acceptable -- that murder and paingiving, whether ritual or casual, is 'okay' --  then I think you need to unplug and walk away from the board and the game, and go do some volunteer work at your nearest homeless shelter.  Get back in touch with the rest of Real Humanity, because there may be something seriously wrong.

If you're trolling, whether that's intentionally trying to piss people off (a big no-no hereabouts, and may you receive all the good things coming to you for doing so) or just accidental, or if you've got this idea that you're playing Devil's Advocate, well -- time to stop.  Again, unplug, walk away, come to understand that your arguments are fallacious and that even the Devil is looking at you like you're off your rocker.  Just walk away; you've been wrong for over 20 years on this one.

[CitizenJoe]

This whole thing started because someone said Aztechnology are dicks and that's why we can't have nice things.  My stance is that actions can be evil but people and corporations can't.  I've been seeing a lot of acts described as evil, but they don't have do be done for evil reasons.  In fact the "How do we make this profitable?" can be seen as "How can we make some good of this?"  I've seen people repeatedly say that there are a few bad eggs at the top.  That doesn't mean that everyone in Aztechnology is bad, just those bad eggs.    So, no, they aren't all dicks.  And, no, that isn't the reason we can't have nice things.

You're welcome to play Aztechnology as a Saturday Morning Villain with the waxed mustache and puppies to kick, but I choose to have them with a more complex agenda.  They don't do evil things for the sake of being evil, whatever they do, it is for a larger purpose... one that has not been disclosed.  If you really think that Aztechnology is trying to summon Cthulhu and end the world, then by all means, issue the Omega Order and simply remove them from the playing field.  I personally don't think that anyone capable of putting together an organization like Aztechnology is foolish enough to have that as a goal.

[JustADude]

My stance is that actions can be evil but people and corporations can't [be evil].

*SNIP*

I personally don't think that anyone capable of putting together an organization like Aztechnology is foolish enough to have that as a goal.

If you think that, Joe, then you have not even an inkling of a clue about how stupid, short-sighted, and self-deluding humans can be.

You're also, apparently, blissfully unaware of the kind of sick, psychotic monsters that are walking around out there... and long may you stay deluded. That particular lesson is something nobody should have to have brought home.

[Cailieg]

I honestly do not think Joe is trolling.

His stance may not match ours (I think Aztechnology is a relatively horrible, abominable, morally reprehensible, some would say evil, corporation), but what he is saying is just a different view of morality. One who's basic tenants I can understand. Moral Relativism. What is moral to you may not so be to another man, and what is moral to him may not be so to you.

It is called  Meta-ethical Moral Relativism and is the basis for his stance, and indeed, were this the basis for a Lincoln-Douglas debate topic it is one I could easily defend or attack.

I am going to use something many of us geeks (even we female ones ^_~ in college I was more interested in code than men or women) would once long ago have been accused of knowing nothing about, sex. The information I will be using to defend this was all found easily on google with a couple keyword searches.

In the United States alone the statute for sexual conduct between two individuals varies from legal for a 13-14 year old if they are married, to 15 in some states, 16 in some states, 18 in some states, 4 year max difference in some states, 3 year max difference in some states and on and on and on.....read that people in California, and other "modern" states. You still have states on the books that allow 13 year old marriage and sexual congress with parental consent, some places have judicial oversight to make certain it is not predatory, others go on faith of parental consent alone. That is in the United States. If we go to Europe, then Asian, then India, then Africa, we will get numbers so vastly disparate as to make some western stomachs turn.

Before I am called wrong I present - http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/teen_marriage_laws/index.shtml

Below are the states that have a absolute minimum for marriage and thus consummation, their non married consensual sex laws can be found at a later link. Note many other states have laws such as "Marriage under 15 if the court deems it in the child's best interest" which would likely not happen nowadays, so avoiding nebulous states. However there are plenty that allow "under 15" with "notarized parental consent" or "Under 15 in situations such as pregnancy a court becomes involved, but not if pregnancy is not involved" that I will likewise avoid listing so as not to clog up the thread with information provided in the links.

New Hampshire (13 Brides, 14 grooms)
New York (14 min)
North Carolina (14 min)

Many people, myself included, would look horrendously dis-favorably on a union between someone 13-14 and someone 20-24, but in some places in the country, as wrong as that may sound and as rare as it may be (read that too cause it is part of what he is saying, Blood Magic, though common for Aztlan/Aztechnology is still proportionately rare compared to the populace by virtue of limiting how many people "would/could" do it) it is completely and utterly legal. Without even heading out of the United States. If we did that some of your heads might spin with the question of are countries such as Sudan and Yemen with no age for marriage and consummation age evil, where the basis is still has she begun her menses? How about countries who's sexual consent age hovers at 14 or even lower (some as low as 12....)? Now imagine that 12 year old with a 48 year old man....sick to the stomach, yes....evil.....I want to say yes, but I cannot, because it is their culture.

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

What Joe is trying to say. Is that though we may want to label them evil, because they do not fit our moral view, it is difficult to do so with people of different faiths and locales and even more so with nebulous organizations such a corporations or governments.

Are countries that have marriage between pre-adult men and women evil? I cannot say, because our views are relative to our cultural, religious and personal situations. What about countries that allow sex with what I consider all but children? It may make me want to puke but it is neither my culture nor my government and or religion....who am I to say.  I may find them morally reprehensible for it, but evil, hard to dub. I have a hard time pinning evil on most national governing bodies at this point in time, though there are some who's actions I deplore. As a married lesbian there are places in the world the Government would seem very evil to me, they would after all kill me. But to them, I am the one in the wrong, the sinner, who chose a dirty path, and only by death can I be cleansed. Until Meta-ethical Moral Realtivism is resolved into a unified theory worldwide of what is and is not moral (read: that would generally mean one religion, one government) Moral Relativism is here to stay.

I may not agree completely with what he says, but I "get" the message. He is not trolling.


Alexis
/defensive soapbox off
*smiles*

[Cailieg]

Now to get back on the topic.

I have been pondering what if Dunkelzahn did not slow the time schedule back down. If he did not die. Say he did have the power in the Earth's current manasphere even with such a great title from the Namegivers' to perform the ritual to empower the Dragonheart.

What effects do some of you see in relation to the Horrors?

What about Ghostwalker? He arrived through the rift, what if Dunkelzahn did not die, would Ghosty appear? Would he not have come at all? I mean if MountainShadow was not killed would IceWing return? ^_~

So many things changed in the wake of that Wyrm's death, it may have, in many ways been his master stroke. He shook up the world and changed its course, but where would it have gone without that change?

I have been thinking it would make an amazing alternate reality for Shadowrun and have been pondering it a lot lately.


Alexis
*smiles*