[jonathanc]

For the record, he was definitely trolling, and he did a good enough job to kill my thread.



Thanks, dick.

[Angelone]

For what it's worth, I apologize for my part in this. I had no idea my little joke would spiral out of control like that. Differences in opinions and misunderstandings are killers.

[Lacynth40]

For the record, he was definitely trolling, and he did a good enough job to kill my thread.



Thanks, dick.

Well, he's evil, and that's why we can't have nice things. *hides*

[Black]

Growing up with old Marvel comics, I have a special place in my heart for "What If?" scenarios, so I was wondering: What if Dunkelzahn never died?

Now, I know that his death was related somehow to trying to stop the Horrors through something called the Dragonheart, but let's examine a few alternate scenarios:


1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?

2. Dunkelzahn's death was faked, and he has been behind the Draco Foundation all along. What has he been doing all this time?

3. Dunkelzahn's death never happened. He either survived the explosion, or the explosion never happened. What would an active, public Dunkelzahn with the might of the UCAS behind him have done? How might the 2070's look differeng if this occurred?

Threads can be resurrected.

Now... hmmm...

1. This is hard, things have changed and his place in the world is well and truly gone.  Retake control of the Foundation, maybe a public role in the United Nations (ambasador for peace or somesuch).  He might use his shares in Ares (via Nadia) to begin to bring balance and sanity back to the corp... or he may end up with a seat on the board of a different corp (maybe Evo?).  Of course this assumes that he can abandone his place in the metaplanes.  Would upset the current dragon maneuvers a lot.   Even 'allies' like hestiby or ghostwalker may not react favourably...

2.  Metaplanes stuff.  Maybe gathering artifacts to strengthen the barriers, building a safe haven somewhere for when the horrors arrive, laying eggs and raising baby dragons...  building an army of drakes... travelling the world disguised as a normal guy, helping people randomly as he drifts from town to town.

3.  Assumes that he didn't need to sacrifice himself...  A more stable UCAS, one in which Ares has been kept sane, in which there was no new revolution coup attempts.  Perhaps one which has built alliances with strange friends around the world. Possibly even reincorporated some of the successor nations like Quebec (A dragon actively playing politics can do anything...)  Maybe a UCAS which is far more active on the international stage, particularly with magical threats.  Maybe even actively intervening in the Amazonia/Aztlan conflict.....  however, people would become tired of him, and begin to fear the President who never gets old.  The constant media scrutiny (particular by the press working for his political enemies) would find examples of his 'alien' mindset.  Dunky may even struggle to achieve his goals with so much public spotlight and gracefully retire so that he can actually get things done...  Actually that fits Point 2 quiet well...

[Cailieg]

For the record, he was definitely trolling, and he did a good enough job to kill my thread.



Thanks, dick.

I am a female, so calling me a dick is a bit out of hand to say the least. If you are calling him one then replying to my assertions that I did not feel he was trolling before the insult points it at me and not at him.

I still do not see his posts as trolling. I stated my position clearly and concisely, in a completely non dickish way and then proceeded to post a separate post about the OP to attempt to help to steer things back on topic. I would have left it there, had you not called me a dick....

To be honest I found his posts the most intellectually driven, primarily because he has obviously removed his personal views from his argumentative ones . He is not defending a personal belief but coming at things like a debate major. A trait I can highly appreciate as I was a National L-D Champion in High School. As such I can easily see where he is coming from. Now, did the talk of moral relativism derail the thread a bit? Yes. But at the same time it sparked a rather deep moral debate about life in the shadows. One I personally felt was compelling enough to read and follow. Certainly such a topic could and should be a thread/topic of it's own. For my part in the derailing I too, apologize.

Now back on topic

Threads can be resurrected.

Now... hmmm...

1. This is hard, things have changed and his place in the world is well and truly gone.  Retake control of the Foundation, maybe a public role in the United Nations (ambasador for peace or somesuch).  He might use his shares in Ares (via Nadia) to begin to bring balance and sanity back to the corp... or he may end up with a seat on the board of a different corp (maybe Evo?).  Of course this assumes that he can abandone his place in the metaplanes.  Would upset the current dragon maneuvers a lot.   Even 'allies' like hestiby or ghostwalker may not react favourably...

2.  Metaplanes stuff.  Maybe gathering artifacts to strengthen the barriers, building a safe haven somewhere for when the horrors arrive, laying eggs and raising baby dragons...  building an army of drakes... travelling the world disguised as a normal guy, helping people randomly as he drifts from town to town.

3.  Assumes that he didn't need to sacrifice himself...  A more stable UCAS, one in which Ares has been kept sane, in which there was no new revolution coup attempts.  Perhaps one which has built alliances with strange friends around the world. Possibly even reincorporated some of the successor nations like Quebec (A dragon actively playing politics can do anything...)  Maybe a UCAS which is far more active on the international stage, particularly with magical threats.  Maybe even actively intervening in the Amazonia/Aztlan conflict.....  however, people would become tired of him, and begin to fear the President who never gets old.  The constant media scrutiny (particular by the press working for his political enemies) would find examples of his 'alien' mindset.  Dunky may even struggle to achieve his goals with so much public spotlight and gracefully retire so that he can actually get things done...  Actually that fits Point 2 quiet well...

A lot of good ideas in here. And great thoughts as well. I have to agree wholeheartedly with #1. The other great dragons, even his allies, have been forced to deal with the Draco foundation ordeal and then move their own plans forward. Having Dunkelzahn back would certainly toss some spanners in some engine works, for which they may not be wholly thankful.

I like your take on #2, roughly what I saw as likely in the event of a fake-out as well. Gonna have to chew on #3 a bit. I agree the media would eventually latch onto his Draconic traits as the means to crucify his terms but really have not thought about what his terms may have been like..


Alexis
*smiles*

[CitizenJoe]

1. Dunkelzahn returns in the mid to late 2070's, restored by some weird Artifact or other that the Draco Foundation located. What would he do? How would the other GD's react?

Following much of the Shedim incidents, raising the dead was declared illegal.  So whoever did it would be in hot water legally.  Also, once dead, you lose all rights.   At best, he would be a secret tool of whoever brought him back.

2. Dunkelzahn's death was faked, and he has been behind the Draco Foundation all along. What has he been doing all this time?

This is major insurance fraud.  Again very illegal. 

3. Dunkelzahn's death never happened. He either survived the explosion, or the explosion never happened. What would an active, public Dunkelzahn with the might of the UCAS behind him have done? How might the 2070's look differeng if this occurred?

Personally, I find it dubious for a dragon to be allowed to run for President of the UCAS.  I find it even more dubious for him to win the election (screw the popular vote, there's an electoral congress for just this sort of reason.).  Once you get past those notions, whoever died in the blast could have been a stand in.  Why make yourself accessible if you don't need to?

Let me add 4.  What if 4th edition is just a simulation of Deus inside the SCIRE using all the trapped victims as test subjects to test scenarios.

[Nath]

Personally, I find it dubious for a dragon to be allowed to run for President of the UCAS.

Dunkelzahn citizenship was a political move that sort of backfired. President Thomas Steele and his political allies had the popular dragon granted full citizenship by a special act of the Congress, overcoming the specie issue.

The "naturel-born-citizen" clause would likely not prevent Dunkelzahn from running. The seven first presidents of the United States were born in places that would be part of the US territory, but they couldn't be citizen of something that didn't exist at the time. The issue was even more complicated when the UCAS formed, since part of the UCAS population (and UCAS politicians) were born in places that would not be part of the UCAS as they were given to the NAN in 2018.
Dunkelzahn was not born in a place that is part of the UCAS (Europe probably). But he was already residing in Colorado when it became part of the United States. So it would depend a lot on the exact wording of the UCAS Constitution.

I find it even more dubious for him to win the election (screw the popular vote, there's an electoral congress for just this sort of reason.).

The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America
The president and vice president are elected to four-year terms, but by a simple majority of the popular ballot. The UCAS has no electoral college. There is also no limit on the number of terms a president may serve.

Shadows of North America, page 168
The president and vice president are elected to four-year terms by a simple majority of vote of the popular ballot (the UCAS has no electoral college). There is no limit to the number of terms a president may serve.

No electoral college so. Also, Dunkelzahn won "by a narrow margin" over Kenneth Brackhaven, and there was as much as six candidates. So the dragon's actual result may have been anywhere from 50 to 20%.

[CanRay]

The "naturel-born-citizen" clause would likely not prevent Dunkelzahn from running. The seven first presidents of the United States were born in places that would be part of the US territory, but they couldn't be citizen of something that didn't exist at the time. The issue was even more complicated when the UCAS formed, since part of the UCAS population (and UCAS politicians) were born in places that would not be part of the UCAS as they were given to the NAN in 2018.
Dunkelzahn was not born in a place that is part of the UCAS (Europe probably). But he was already residing in Colorado when it became part of the United States. So it would depend a lot on the exact wording of the UCAS Constitution.

He used the loophole that was created to allow Canadians to run for President when the UCAS was founded, IIRC.

[CitizenJoe]

A simple majority requires over 50%. A plurality or Relative Majority means the most votes of any one candidate.  If UCAS is using First Past the Post voting then there should be a runoff... may have been.  If instead they use Instant Runoff Voting or Alternative Voting, then one voting session is all that is needed.

In either case, for a dragon to get enough to win a popular vote in the climate of 2057, it smacks of voter fraud.  Maybe that's why he offed himself, so that he could select the person to run the UCAS and avoid the voter fraud investigation.

[CanRay]

It was a close race, with the racist bastard who wasn't even his father's son coming in damned close to Dunkie.

As for fraud, I could see most Dragons doing it, but Dunkie?  Nah, he had star power behind him thanks to his 'trid show.

[CitizenJoe]

Really?  I mean you did see what he did to that one guy in his will right, stripped him of his SIN and basically put a hit out on him for making a deal with a dragon?  You do know about his secret organization of ShadowOps right?  You do know he was on the Board of Aztechnology right?

[Crimsondude]

Also, Dunkelzahn won "by a narrow margin" over Kenneth Brackhaven, and there was as much as six candidates. So the dragon's actual result may have been anywhere from 50 to 20%.

Underworld, Shadowland v2.1 News (Page 7):

Here are the official election results, finalized by the UCAS gummint its own self. Dunkelzahn: 47,827,746 votes, or 37%. Brackhaven: 38,754,731 votes, or 30%. Vogel: 23,200,993 votes, or 18%. Yeats/Penchyk: 12,831,834 votes, or 10%. Hernandez: 5,054,964, or 4%. Booth: 1,166,530, or 1%. Other freaks and weirdoes got 777,687 votes. Click here for more useless breakdowns.

The UCAS has the worst system possible for electing the President, a simple winner-take-all system based solely on the highest number of votes combined with six major political parties.

Anyway, it doesn't matter where he was born because the natural born citizen requirement isn't in the UCAS Constitution. However it applied to Dunkelzahn, it was made absolutely clear when Nadja Daviar became Vice President (and then President, maybe  ) because she was born in Estonia.

[Cranstonvm]

Was it ever mentioned why The Big D wanted Lars J. Matthews dead so bad?

[Crimsondude]

Was it ever mentioned why The Big D wanted Lars J. Matthews dead so bad?

No.

[Cranstonvm]

Also, Dunkelzahn won "by a narrow margin" over Kenneth Brackhaven, and there was as much as six candidates. So the dragon's actual result may have been anywhere from 50 to 20%.

From Underworld, the Shadowland v2.1 News page (Page 7)

Here are the official election results, finalized by the UCAS gummint its own self. Dunkelzahn: 47,827,746 votes, or 37%. Brackhaven: 38,754,731 votes, or 30%. Vogel: 23,200,993 votes, or 18%. Yeats/Penchyk: 12,831,834 votes, or 10%. Hernandez: 5,054,964, or 4%. Booth: 1,166,530, or 1%. Other freaks and weirdoes got 777,687 votes. Click here for more useless breakdowns.

The UCAS has the worst system possible for electing the President, a simple winner-take-all system based solely on the highest number of votes combined with six major political parties.

It was inherited from the USA. Check out the presidential election of 1860 if you want to see an almost equal mess.