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Should I get powerbolt+powerball if I have stunbolt+stunball?

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Crash_00

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« Reply #30 on: <04-30-12/1252:47> »
In real life yes, but in the game it deals stun damage by the RAW. Just like Lightning Bolt. All electrical damage is treated as stun, not just some of it.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #31 on: <04-30-12/1255:52> »
In real life yes, but in the game it deals stun damage by the RAW. Just like Lightning Bolt. All electrical damage is treated as stun, not just some of it.

Again, a specific spell-text ruling would trump a general rule.
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Crash_00

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« Reply #32 on: <04-30-12/1321:37> »
Sure would, if it says it trumps the standard rule, which is not the case here. In fact, as I've shown, it is stated the spell block does not trump elemental effects.

Dracain

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« Reply #33 on: <04-30-12/1417:25> »
Why does Lightning Bolt get special treatment over, say, a real Lightning Bolt straight from that be, or grabbing hold of a dangling electrical line? Both of which are easily considered more lethal than a taser.

More importantly, how is letting it remain physical, applying the elemental effect? After the fluff, the first line in the Electrical Damage section is "Electrical damage is treated as stun damage ..." If it's an important enough part of the effect to be the very first thing said about it mechanically, it should be a no brainer that applying the effect will include that line. It doesn't say "apply only the beneficial parts of the elemental effect".

You don't think getting struck by lightning would be physical damage? The people who survive that drek are very VERY lucky individuals, and even then they're likely to be in the hospital a couple days at minimum for the damage done to their bodies. Sounds like physical damage to me using game terms.
As true as that is, we are discussing this from a mechanical standpoint (he even said that he has let strong lightning bolts be physical).  And it does say that the elemental effect changes the spell, with no exception on that matter.  I would honestly just houserule it so that electricity was stun up to a certain point, then it was physical.  However, RAW it would be stun, according to the rulebook. 

P.S.  Any more thoughts or opinions on if powerbolt+ball should be kept if stunbolt+ball and an elemental single+AOE spell is already known. 
« Last Edit: <04-30-12/1427:21> by Dracain »

JustADude

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« Reply #34 on: <04-30-12/1639:44> »
Why does Lightning Bolt get special treatment over, say, a real Lightning Bolt straight from that be, or grabbing hold of a dangling electrical line? Both of which are easily considered more lethal than a taser.

To me it basically boils down to the DV of the spell:

Indirect + Elemental + Physical Damage = F/2 + 3
Indirect + Elemental + Stun Damage = F/2 + 2
Lightning Bolt = F/2 + 3
therefore
Lightning Bolt = Indirect + Elemental + Physical Damage


So, to comply with the known rules of spell construction, either Lightning Bolt's DV needs to come down to (F/2)+2 or it needs to still actually sling Physical damage if the target isn't immune to Electrical damage.



EDIT: Just reviewed the spell-construction rules in Street Magic and noticed that Elemental Effect has the clause "must be Physical spell with Physical damage"... which means there is pretty much no reason on earth to take Lightning Bolt under RAW, since Sand and Water have similar short-circuit effects and do Physical.
« Last Edit: <04-30-12/1710:03> by JustADude »
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Mason

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« Reply #35 on: <05-02-12/1335:02> »
Well, then according to Street Magic, all elemental spells do Physical damage, so two things relating to lightning bolt agree on Physical, one thing does not. I guess it is an exception to the general rule on electrical damage.

Of course, Electrical damage is "Treated as Stun damage", not "Is Stun damage", so another argument could be made...

Chrona

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« Reply #36 on: <05-02-12/1619:07> »
I'mma put a big [GM'S DISCRETION] stamp here then.

Leticron

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« Reply #37 on: <05-02-12/1630:43> »
I may be able to help you out.
The german street magic states that
a) the damage type is stated in the spell description - physical for lightning bolt, and that
b) elemental spells usually have SECONDARY effects of the given element.

So while it does physical damage it still has the stun/stagger effects of electricity damage.

Critias

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« Reply #38 on: <05-02-12/1649:07> »
I may be able to help you out.
The german street magic states that
a) the damage type is stated in the spell description - physical for lightning bolt, and that
b) elemental spells usually have SECONDARY effects of the given element.

So while it does physical damage it still has the stun/stagger effects of electricity damage.
So the official German response is for it to do physical damage and stun damage, in one casting?  Or am I misreading?

JustADude

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« Reply #39 on: <05-02-12/1824:59> »
I may be able to help you out.
The german street magic states that
a) the damage type is stated in the spell description - physical for lightning bolt, and that
b) elemental spells usually have SECONDARY effects of the given element.

So while it does physical damage it still has the stun/stagger effects of electricity damage.
So the official German response is for it to do physical damage and stun damage, in one casting?  Or am I misreading?


Slightly. It does the normal amount of Physical spell damage, -Half AP, and makes them make a Don't Taze Me Roll.
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Leticron

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« Reply #40 on: <05-02-12/1908:59> »
What JustADude said.
I shouldn't have used the word "stun"...
« Last Edit: <05-02-12/1914:39> by Leticron »

Bio ex Machina

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« Reply #41 on: <05-02-12/2103:38> »
The issue is that even if it does physical, being electricity damage means it is treated as stun damage. Vehicles don't take stun. Electrical damage specifically states that. When looking at whether the vehicle is damaged, you look at the damage type. Even though it has a P in the listing, the S is what is going to stick out because Electrical damage is always treated as stun.

However, there is a bit of quivocality in that to my mind.

Yes, it's "treated as" stun damage but that, to me, means more along the lines of things like whether it affects barriers, how Trauma Damper alters the total damage, and other such things. If the damage code is "P(e)" then, at the end of the day, it would still fill boxes on the Physical track after all the resistance calculations are done.

Now, normally that would still mean that it splashes against Drones, since Drones don't take stun, but there's a special exception in SR4A (p164) that says "Electronic equipment, vehicles, and drones can also be affected by Electricity damage." That exception would allow the few cases of "P(e)" damage to still blow up hings that would realistically be perma-fried with electricity without letting you use Lightning Bolt to take down a plascrete wall.
have you ever seen concrete that's been hit wih lightning? there's currently a hole in my driveway where a powersurge (from lightning) jumped from one rib-iron to another through the concrete. if a player wants to blow a hole in some concrete with a lightning bolt, then i'd side in support of the "P(e)" damage. it's right there in the book, specific beats genera, and it could happen IRL. but i'd say t's ultimately up to the gm on that...

Mason

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« Reply #42 on: <05-02-12/2248:07> »
I may be able to help you out.
The german street magic states that
a) the damage type is stated in the spell description - physical for lightning bolt, and that
b) elemental spells usually have SECONDARY effects of the given element.

So while it does physical damage it still has the stun/stagger effects of electricity damage.

That's how I'll play it. Makes sense to me. Thanks!

Crash_00

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« Reply #43 on: <05-03-12/1302:26> »
Quote
I may be able to help you out.
The german street magic states that
a) the damage type is stated in the spell description - physical for lightning bolt, and that
b) elemental spells usually have SECONDARY effects of the given element.
So only part of the Electrical Damage effect is applied to it then? I don't read german (and don't have a german version of Street Magic for any tranlating), but the english is extremely clear that it is treated just like any other electrical attack. I do have some questions though for the german version:
a.) Is the damage type said to be stated in the spell description or the spell code/stat block. If the former, does it actually say physical in the description or does it use electrical damage and just have physical in the spell code/stat block?
b.) Does it state that they deal all secondary effects or part of them? On a related note, does it state that the secondary affects apply to damage or just that they have an effect on the environment.

First you have lightning bolt (205 SR4A):
Quote
These spells create and direct vicious strikes of electricity that cause Electricity damage (p. 163). Lightning Bolt is a single target spell. Ball Lightning is an area spell.

Then you have the Electrical Damage section(163-164 SR4A):
Quote
Electrical damage is treated as Stun damage
...SNIP
Keep in mind that this is a part of the electrical damage effect just like the incapacitation check. Both are equally parts of the effect. Nothing says to pick and choose or only take part of the effects.

Next you have Spell Damage (204 SR4A):
Quote
Each spell description notes whether damage is Stun (S) or
Physical (P).
Note, here it says spell description, not stat block. Lightning Bolt's spell description states it does Electrical Damage which is Stun (S) always. Note that many of the other element damage spells state what elemental damage they do rather than stating Physical (P) or Stun (S) while non-elemental spells actually state physical or stun specifically.

Now, you have Spell Design's elemental effect descritpion (163 SM):
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Combat spells
     Elemental eff ect (must be Physical spell with Physical damage) +2
This shows us that it doesn't matter what damage the spell does, if it's elemental it is designed (and most likely recorded in the book) as a physical spell with physical damage.

Last we have the elemental spell section from Street Magic (162 SM):
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Elemental spells use the elements of nature to inflict damage
...SNIP...
These elemental spells inflict special types of damage that may also have secondary effects (starting fires, melting equipment, etc). Some of these elemental damage types (Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire) are described on pp. 154– 155, SR4.
This shows us that the spell does not do physical damage with an electrical element tagged on to it. It does electrical damage straight up. Similarly, the spells don't create a magical representation of the element, they summon up pure natural element that is then forced toward the target. Lightning from a mage is no different than natural lightning (other than your percent chance of getting hit in doors at least).

Quote
Well, then according to Street Magic, all elemental spells do Physical damage, so two things relating to lightning bolt agree on Physical, one thing does not. I guess it is an exception to the general rule on electrical damage.
The street magic clause in a table for drain modifiers. It doesn't state they have to actually do physical, it notes that that is how they must be designed. Elemental spells are stated to do special types of damage (appropriate to the element in question). Hopefully I've made a clear case.

Quote
have you ever seen concrete that's been hit wih lightning? there's currently a hole in my driveway where a powersurge (from lightning) jumped from one rib-iron to another through the concrete. if a player wants to blow a hole in some concrete with a lightning bolt, then i'd side in support of the "P(e)" damage. it's right there in the book, specific beats genera, and it could happen IRL. but i'd say t's ultimately up to the gm on that...
There point here is that completely natural lightning that comes from the sky like what put the hole in the driveway does stun damage blatantly according to the book. However, people want to claim that the completely natural lightning that a mage summons up does physical damage despite the fact that it's the same exact lightning according to description.

I'm not saying that in real life lightning is just a mild stun setback, but in the SR rules it is. Then again getting shot in the SR universe is pretty tame too compared to real life, so it's about on the same page really.

Leticron

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« Reply #44 on: <05-03-12/1905:26> »
I believe the main difference here is that the stat block is part of the spell description, at least in german.
Spell description: stat block + text. It states physical for lighting bolt/ball/touch.
I also didn't find any reference to a separate spell "stat block". I may have overlooked it though, so if you have an example I can double check it.

Under elemental effects it is stated that elemental attacks usually have secondary effects related to their damage type, while under "damage code" it says its damage is in the spell description.
So in general the rules are clear in terms of wording.
Lightning Bolt specifically is irritating though, as they refer to SR4A for electricity damage, which (the german version is no different) is - of course debatable, but at least clear in terms of rules - treated as stun damage with secondary effects. So it could be an oversight or some copy/paste error, as it seems to be the only combat spell that contradicts with core rules.
Personally, going by the rules of street magic, I see no room for interpretation, but I guess if you really, really want it to deal stun damage you could put both rules in relation to each other:
"Lightning Bolt deals physical damage (as per spell description) which is electricity damage (as per spell description). Electricity damage is treated as stun damage, therefore Lighting Bolt deals physical damage that is treated as stun damage." But how would you treat physical damage that is treated as stun damage?
Way too much rule fuzz for my liking, I'd just ask my group how they would like to handle it and pick one option.

P.S. I do not necessarily agree with electricity damage being stun damage, but I don't like exceptions to the rule, so personally I'd favor either all electricity damage being physical OR lightning bolt dealing stun damage.