[Glorthoron]

A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count. In other words, Force has a limiting effect on spells—the more oomph you put into the spell, the better you can succeed with it. This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell.

For purposes of drain for casting a Heal spell, the Force doesn't matter. The Drain will always be DV-2. However, your maximum hits are based off Force, so throwing the force as high as you can isn't a bad idea. Also note that regardless of what number the drain comes out to, it is Stun damage unless you crank the Force of the spell up over your Magic, in which case it is Physical, as normal for overcasting. So if you're a magician with Magic 5, and you Heal someone with 8P damage, if you cast at Force 5, you are limited to 5 hits, and will have to resist 6S damage, but if you cast at Force 8, you can potentially heal all the damage, while you resist 6P drain.

There's something about this that doesn't sit right with me, but I can't put my finger on it.

Shouldn't the drain be based on the damage value you actually heal and not the total damage value?

IMO, it should be, yeah, but it isn't.

The actual quote from the book says "DV: Damage Value - 2". The generally accepted interpretation of that is "total damage value suffered - 2."

I think they're falling back on older versions of SR for this one.  In SR1-3, the drain for a heal (or treat) spell was based on the target's damage level.

[Kesslan]

Just to carry this over from a discussion in another thread as I've had it come up as a player in another GM's game (And we had quite the dispute over it).

The Entry in Runner's Companion for Shapeshifters states under Magic that Shapeshifters are 'dual-natured' in both forms. It doesn't however list this specifically under the header of 'Powers', yet other dual natured species list the Dual Natured trait under both powers and usually in other descriptive text.

Some GMs are taking this to mean that Shapeshifters suffer all the penalties of being Dual Natured, but don't actually get the benefits of being Dual Natured (Such as not having the -2 penalty to physical actions taken while perceiving in the astral.). It would be nice to see some sort of Errata that clarifies this for the official source material.

[JustADude]

Some GMs are taking this to mean that Shapeshifters suffer all the penalties of being Dual Natured, but don't actually get the benefits of being Dual Natured (Such as not having the -2 penalty to physical actions taken while perceiving in the astral.). It would be nice to see some sort of Errata that clarifies this for the official source material.

That is, in short, one of the biggest loads of bullshit I have ever heard. What you've just described is simply your GM being a massive, scum-sucking asshat of a douchenozzle... and please, feel free let them know I said that.

There are exactly two viable options for interpreting the situation:

1) Fluff takes precedence over a stat-block error, therefore they are Dual Natured. Add Dual Natured to all Shapeshifter Critters and Templates and treat them as any other Dual Natured creature.

2) Stat-block takes precedence over fluff, despite editorial intent, therefore they are not Dual Natured. Treat them as normal, non-astral entities, with no special benefit or penalty relating to the omitted Power.

[beowulf_of_wa]

and +1 for the LOL.

[ArkangelWinter]

+1, and now I know what face-melting looks like.

But as has been discussed elsewhere, that's less "needs errata" and more "my common sense is tingling". I'm not sure if it could be fixed with errats of some text, but it was just brought up elsewhere that, by RC and Unwired, an A.I. can never hit 5 Matrix IPs while meat-hackers can

"Does that seem right to you?"

[beowulf_of_wa]

"meat hackers"

sounds like a ghoul hobby.

[JustADude]

"meat hackers"

sounds like a ghoul hobby.

Or a nickname for guys in Urban Brawl that favor melee weapons.

[Sichr]

IT IS SAD THAT THIS THREAD BECOME ANOTHER DISCUSSION THREAD, despite its original purpose and some disputes over that.

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=7089.msg126140#msg126140

[beowulf_of_wa]

haven't you noticed that all threads get sidetracked/hijacked/hacked/derailed??

i would think that catalyst would come up with a GM guide that is both a main rule book and answer guide to most commonly misunderstood or house-ruled rules.
it's not like they don't have a forum that has 99% of those listed somewhere.....

[JustADude]

haven't you noticed that all threads get sidetracked/hijacked/hacked/derailed??

It's one of the laws of the internet.

As the length of a thread increases, the chance of it being derailed approaches 1.

[Kesslan]

There are exactly two viable options for interpreting the situation:

1) Fluff takes precedence over a stat-block error, therefore they are Dual Natured. Add Dual Natured to all Shapeshifter Critters and Templates and treat them as any other Dual Natured creature.

2) Stat-block takes precedence over fluff, despite editorial intent, therefore they are not Dual Natured. Treat them as normal, non-astral entities, with no special benefit or penalty relating to the omitted Power.

I don't disagree with this at all, and I personally follow the rule of thumb that #1 takes precedence over a specific section of a stat block unless there's a specific conflict. That said it's clear that not everyone is reading it this way and the GM in question seems to be more of the RAI camp where if it's not capitalized it doesn't mean the specific piece of gear/trait. Thus why I'm hoping some one can just pop it into an official piece of errata for RC. It's a simple enough fix after all and will then bring the entry for Shapeshifters in line with the entries for all the other dual natured races listed in RC.

[Ethan]

Can you please clarify how Bows (and Crossbows) work? Are they SS, requiring a single action to shoot and also a ready weapon action to load before doing so? How does it work with the Adept power Quick Draw or Iaijutsu?

[JustADude]

Can you please clarify how Bows (and Crossbows) work? Are they SS, requiring a single action to shoot and also a ready weapon action to load before doing so? How does it work with the Adept power Quick Draw or Iaijutsu?

Essentially, since they're not Firearms, they don't actually get a Rate of Fire. That means you can fire them as often as you have actions and ammo... essentially making them Semi-Auto, not Single Shot.

If you use Iaijutsu or Quick Draw on a Bow you'd have to make a Quick Draw test before each attack, since you have to ready another arrow before each shot.

If you GM is really nice, he/she might let you start with a knocked arrow, then roll Quick Draw aftter you shoot to see if you can reload on that same action.

[Glyph]

Right, but the point is, it should have been errataed. FAQ can't actually change rules. It gives an answer why it didn't come into SR4A (or at least the FAQ writers opinion of why) though. It not getting printed in the SR4A book is errata enough for me, but it should have been noted in the Changes Reference Document as it's a big change to the way the item works. Given the FAQ's track record, and the fact that it's not actually errata (and can't change rules), I can easily see some people's view as to why it needs to be clarified.

In regards to spellcasting foci no longer letting you use their dice to soak Drain; this was changed in an errata prior to SR4A, which is why it did not show up in the Changes Reference Document.


To clarify an earlier question that was raised about initiative boosters - does the suprathyroid gland count as an initiative booster (since it raises Reaction as well as three other Physical Attributes) or not?  If it does, what happens when it is combined with other initiative enhancers - does the Reaction boost from the suprathyroid gland not count, or is the entire combination completely unworkable?

[Redmercury]

Can  a shapechanging magician shift into a creature with 2 higher body, and then repeat the process? Is the shapechange spell referring to natural or augmented body?