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[OOC] The Road to Redmond

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inca1980

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« Reply #150 on: <11-06-10/1616:37> »
Since Mercedes has a supernatural talent for languages, then for me it made sense at character creation that she could know Or'zet, if for any reason just for the novelty/exotic factor.  Maybe there's fluff out there that kind of contradicts my view, but from the way I see things I feel that Or'zet is a lot different than Sperethiel.  

First of all, I feel that in Shadowrun, or at least in my campaigns, cultural identity still is an extremely powerful force which categorizes metahumans.  Does a japanese elf feel more allegiance to japanese culture, or "elven" culture?  Well it depends on the individual, but I feel it depends mostly on the environment in which the individual was raised.  For example, in today's world, take a white person in the U.S.....would they feel more kinship with a white european from germany, or an asian-american who went to the same college with them?  I would say by and large it would be the asian-american.  Nonetheless, there would be a certain amount of ties with the german simply based on the fact that they both were of the same race.  Maybe it's a bad example, but i'm just trying to illustrate the relationship between culture and meta-type in the Sixth world.   Not to say that meta-type in Shadowrun is completely analogous to racial identity in today's world, but it does lend itself to some parallels.  So I just feel that cultures based on meta-type are heavily complicated by ethnic identity and only meta-types which are able to form a strong infrastructure for disseminating culture are able to form a viable identity and language, like the elves do with the Tir's.

I used to also think Sperethiel was a bunch of bullshit and it's existence annoyed me until I learned about the existence of Immortal Elves, meaning a handful of elves which survived the ages since the 4th World and along with Dragons are pretty much the main source of knowledge the Sixth World has about the previous eras.  At that point it started to make more sense to me that Sperethiel could within a matter of a decade become a viable language.  It was these immortal elves which were the source of "elven" culture which we see in Shadowrun.  Everyone else however is just a bunch of people that were born with pointy ears, nice bone structure and they don't seem to get old but aside from that they would be culturally totally human, which is one aspect I like about shadowrun.  I love the aspect that all these new "races" which are genetically still considered homo sapiens are wrestling with identity.  The awakening happened so recently that they would basically still consider themselves human but humanity has rejected them and they have been forced to forge a new improvised identity.  It is these immortal elves and dragons who know the real truth behind the awakening and who essentially serve as guides in this turbulent quest for an identity.  So if I take the following factors into consideration: formation of the Tir's which was spearheaded by a few immortal elves, the existence of magic, the exitence of linguasofts and tutorsofts........then yes, it is concievable for me that there are a good number of elves which speak Sperethiel and it's much like how modern Hebrew is today and the formation of the state of Isreal, 50% actual culture, 50% created culture.  

Or'zet however was only introduced in 2057 in Dunkelzahn's will and before this point there was no real Ork Nation movement.....it was the discovery of this ancient language which made Orks realize that they, just like elves, actually had an ancient culture.  The difference is there was no one around who practiced that culture and language because there are no Immortal Orks.  So Or'zet as opposed to Sperethiel is much more of a symbol than an actual language which is commonly spoken.  Most Orks, even in 2072, still are second-class citizens and lack any sense of over-arching identity and other than the occasional riot or Ork rights group, they don't have a viable infrastructure for instilling culture and much less language.  

When I fleshed out the Crimson Crush gang, I wanted them to be an exception to this.  Basically they are the only stabilizing force in these predominantly ork neighborhoods and part of the way they do it is paying tribute to recent Ork Nation ideologies.  Even then though, it's more or just a tip of the hat and by and large their culture is Redmond street culture and their language is English city-speak.  To reflect this I gave members of the gang a language skill of 1 in Or'zet.  Sheldon, the leader of the gang is very sympathetic with the Ork rights movement and even though he himself also only knows a smattering of a few words in the language (skill of 1), he encourages the other gang members to also know a few words just for the shear sake of being able to lay a little bit of a legitimate claim to some kind of ork identity that is separate from street culture.  

However, almost nobody in the actual ork neighborhoods of Seattle knows any Or'zet at all except for perhaps one or two words......they don't really spend their time thinking too much about ork identity, they're more concerned with eeking out a living.  They live in the neighborhoods they live in out of circumstance and because their parents and maybe grandparents were refugees from the night of rage and years of persecution.  Another factor is "human flight" to better neighborhoods.

So to sum up my long treatise on Or'zet ..... If any character is going to have Or'zet as a language skill, they better have some good background for it.......but in Mercedes case, picking up langauges for her is like going down to the mall and buying a pair of Evo thong underwear.....so i'll except it.  But you shouldn't assume that orks you meet know Or'zet because practically none of them do, even Crimson Crush.  If you want to culturally connect with the Crushers, very local Redmond street slang is surest bet.  



« Last Edit: <11-06-10/1625:23> by inca1980 »

FastJack

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« Reply #151 on: <11-06-10/1631:56> »
Good point inca! I had thrown that in there totally because it's something she would do, even if they didn't know the language. Her way of thinking on it was that he'd recognize the gutteral language as being Or'zet even if he didn't know how to speak it, making her that much more interesting to him for the seduction purposes... (Along the lines of "I could teach you some, if you want...") ;)

And, for background purposes, she had learned Or'zet because of running the shadows and having to had dealt with some orks in the past. It's always favorable to at least attempt the language of the persons you're dealing with... Which is actually the same reason she's got that one point in Japanese, but for the other side of the shadow spectrum.

Kontact

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« Reply #152 on: <11-07-10/1219:01> »
I've always thought of Or'zet as being little more than a few words from the rather sparse codex being added to the Ork Underground dialect colloquially known as Trog.  ;)

inca1980

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« Reply #153 on: <11-07-10/1227:52> »
I don't know for sure, but my impression is that the codec did lay out the whole language....or at least was written in the whole language so it makes sense that linguists would be able to piece it together.  But nonetheless I feel that it hasn't moved too far beyond that stage of being a linguistics project.

FastJack

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« Reply #154 on: <11-07-10/1415:58> »
I've always thought of Or'zet as being little more than a few words from the rather sparse codex being added to the Ork Underground dialect colloquially known as Trog.  ;)
Check out State of the Art: 2064, p 128-135 for more detail.

Basically, Robert Page received the Or'zet Codex from Dunkelzahn which was a book with metallic pages. On the left page was a story/treatise/whatever written in Sperethiel, on the right page, the same text written in Or'zet. This gave a primer to the ork language. With money donated from Maureen Williams. By 2060 they had the basics (verbs, nouns, sentence structure) figured out. By 2061, they had enough figured out that they began teaching the language to those interested. A little later, they had enough to program Linguasofts with the language.

By 2072, Or'zet is well-used by ork communities and is as fully functional as Sperethiel.

Kontact

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« Reply #155 on: <11-07-10/1425:29> »
The "all from one book" part is what made me think that the palate was pretty bare.  Hard to get a functional vocabulary out of a single story carved in metal.  With the book as a, well, rosetta stone, they could take a myriad of Or'zet texts and begin to decypher them through the shared story, but I wasn't aware that there were enough Or'zet texts floating around to provide the full view of the language.

I don't know, though.  Maybe it was a lengthy tale.

FastJack

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« Reply #156 on: <11-07-10/1457:51> »
Funny you bring up the Rosetta Stone:

Quote from: Wikipedia
... contains 36 lines of hieroglyphic text, 73 of demotic text, and 74 of Greek.

So, from that little bit of text, scholars were able to finally crack the hieroglyphic language of the Egyptians. They were able to use that small bit of text to work out most of the Egyptian hieroglyphs in about 25 years (1799-1824). Now, with the Or'zet, you're dealing with an entire book (the Rosetta was broken off a much larger stele) written side by side with another "living" language (the Rosetta Stone was Ancient Greek, Demotic and Hieroglyphs). Add in computers and such and I'd say they could get the complete language in a much shorter time.

inca1980

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« Reply #157 on: <11-08-10/0449:55> »
Ya, with the computing power of shadowrun Or'zet would get cracked really fast.  I just don't understand the cultural part of Ork communities everywhere adopting it as a functional language.  It just doesn't make sense to me....why on earth would they do that?  I mean, unless linguasofts and tutorsofts have completely changed the way language is seen and used, I feel that ork communities just don't have that much social cohesion and strong sense of identity.  Elves managed to form nations, but that makes sense cuz they had the guidance of immortal elves and they would be trying to form a national identity and a language is the first part of that.  But my impression is that the only real ork "communities" are the ones which exist in slums and the ork-underground where a lot of the social fabric is dysfunctional and the concept of an Ork Nation is really only alive inside activist groups.  I could see activists passing out flyers in poor ork neighborhoods telling all the brothers and sisters to unite and recognize the ancient heritage that is rightfully theirs.....but the communities are so stricken with violence, drugs and other such vice, nobody is really that receptive to the feel-good message and may just acknowledge it but none of it really gets put into much practice.  

Elves just never suffered the same intense level of prejudice and thus they were able to quickly form successful functional communities based around the guidance of people who probably had been planning the logistics behind the formation of these nations for centries in anticipation of the upcomming awakening.  

It makes more sense that despite the revelation that the orks had an ancient language, it seems that most urban orks, at least in seattle would continue to feel that they are able to culturally express themselves more fully in dialects like Trog rather than a whole different language like Or'zet.  
« Last Edit: <11-08-10/0451:28> by inca1980 »

Kontact

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« Reply #158 on: <11-08-10/0638:45> »
Yeah, language arises from need for communication.  If they already can communicate, then why would they learn a new language?  The only reason I could imagine Orks adopting a specific Ork language is so that they can talk to Orks all over the world.  From what I recall, Orks have a strong sense of unity, so I guess it's not outside of the realm of possibility.  Besides there's still magic in the world.  Maybe they are drawn to the language because it feels right to them for a reason beyond common sense.

And, Fastjack, the point I was making with the rosetta stone is that it was a limited key, used to decipher lots and lots of text elsewhere.  As far as I know, there weren't a lot of Or'zet works waiting to be translated.  So, the codex may have been useful only in understanding itself.  There would be a lot in it, since it's probably long enough to get a basic vocabulary of ~1000 words, but that would still leave Or'zet as a language of borrowed words.  Like a thousand true Or'zet words and seven times that in borrowed nouns and verbs.  All like, 'Kart ouso et  wireless signal draan jack er computer terminal paar lulz."

FastJack

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« Reply #159 on: <11-08-10/1019:05> »
Mostly, the movement came from Orkland (formerly Oakland) in California. They have a VERY strong power base there and lots of racial pride. Some smaller communities might take it up as a way of putting their stamp on things, and to thumb their noses at the supposed "elven supremacy" that they see.

It's more about racial pride than a need to be filled. Much like many people will look at their own ancestry and learn their family's language to get more in touch with their own personal history.

I agree Kontact, but you can take that base of a language and create new words from the base. For instance, there isn't a word for "wireless" in the old ork language, but they could combine old words for "air" and "talk" to create that that new word. Even in most languages nowadays, words are more often based off other words (split off, spelled differently or merged) than created whole cloth. After all, fifty years ago words like "cellular", "wireless" and "laptop" either meant something else or didn't exist at all.

Kontact

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« Reply #160 on: <11-08-10/1507:18> »
Hey inca, what kind of effects can i hope to produce by messing with the dude's cybernetic muscle replacements?
Like, would I be able to paralyze them completely, give them a penalty equal to the benefit normally received, or just switch it off so that it no longer factors into their stats?
« Last Edit: <11-08-10/1508:59> by Kontact »

inca1980

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« Reply #161 on: <11-08-10/1804:03> »
Muscle replacements are weird because they should fall under Bioware really cuz they're "vat grown" muscles....but they fall under cyberware so the only real cybernetic part about them I would say is diagnostic features that measure and give readouts for tensile strength, bloodflow, oxygen levels etc.  A cyberarm could be controlled or shut down, but not muscle replacements.  It really only increases the amount of muscle tissue. 

Kontact

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« Reply #162 on: <11-09-10/0512:48> »
Ah yeah.  so at least I can kill their wires.  That should have an immediate effect on their initiative, right.

Biologically though, the muscle replacement thing being just organic muscle analogous to human muscle isn't really workable without some sort of nanite system.  Human muscle is constantly breaking down, so replacing human muscle with bigger human muscles wouldn't work.  It would last about a month before it was baseline normal again.  So, the muscles would have to be artificial.  Definitely not McKibben-type artificial muscles since that's a far cry from "vat-grown," but the sheer invasiveness of them at 1 essence per level makes me think that they are electrically controlled somehow.  Definitely not rocking that ATP activation.  Probably electrical power via piezoelectrics and control by the standard nerve signals, so it wouldn't necessarily be hooked up to an artificial controller system.  CNS is still the best controller in town.
« Last Edit: <11-09-10/1606:29> by Kontact »

inca1980

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« Reply #163 on: <11-10-10/1414:34> »
@Fastjack.  To resolve a tie you compare Edge first and he has a higher edge than you, and he also has higher initiative and reaction.

FastJack

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