[beowulf_of_wa]

Recently, i've noticed a lot of hate towards GM PCs, or maybe just towards GMs that play their PCs as railroad conductors.

thoughts?

[JustADude]

First off... GM-PCs shouldn't get confused with an NPC that just happens to be closely associated with the party for a moderately long period of time. Those are fine, because they're still being treated as NPCs. After a few experiences, however, I've found GM-PC = Find A New Game.

At no time should a GM-run character be, in any way, anywhere near a central protagonist in their own game except in a Quest Giver / Mr. Johnson, supporting character kinda way. Having a GM try get someone on the same level of plot importance as a PC... worse, usually a Railroad Conductor in the guise of a "Mentor" character... is utterly pointless. At that point they need to just sit down and start writing a novel, because the campaign is going to quickly turn into "The Story of GM Jimmy's Great Adventures (with some other guys, too)".

[Zilfer]

Generally the only thing i can equate to a GM PC is when i may throw in one of my actual characters who has a chance of dying himself. I take no favor in my character in fact last time they ran into the "leader" of their group since in DnD my character Zilfer is the leader of Eclipse, he's been out of the picture for so long I pretty much brought them on a quest to "resupply" a lot of magical stuff they had lost as of recently so they could get back up to snuff. My character i'm pretty sure did not take any of the loot, they may have given him gold i can't remember. The bottom of the dungeon turned out to have a death knight.

I've never seen such an epic swing of a greatsword that i'm just glad it ran out of time. First turn everyone had managed to beat the deathknight's initiative save for the Cleric. XD The rolls went as thus...

First swing + 15 to hit or so? Power Attack'd because i thought it'd be a cool thing to do opening up. Rolled a 20, well rolled again to confirm 20 again. <.< Ok Main Fighter goes down one swing. (Power attack of about 10 doubled for being two handed, and then doubled again for a critical) base of 40 damage, well since the main fighter went down one swing of rediculousness, i cleaved into the next person (monk i believe), Criticaled with a 19 and then confirmed. Well they dropped as well. Rolled random again and came up with my own character, would you know it i rolled a 20, roll to confirm, got a 1. Without the critical hit, it still left my character at 1 hp and right next to the death knight for his second swing. When almost half a party drops to the first blow with 3 crit's landing in a row that gets the heart pumping trust me. XD

So i think you can play GM PC's fine if you don't hog the spotlight, or make special successions for that character. In fact one NPC in one of my friend's session went from a random Orc to being one of the badass members of the group, just because my Paladin honored the Orc's last wish which was "I don't want to die" basically. So he defended the orc reasoning with Dwarves, and critting on diplomacy to do so. So he followed us around, my paladin would keep him in line and me and the DM would make comments as him keeping in line with a 'half witted' orc. He currently now follows my paladin as a follower, (not of the god.... yet.) and has outwitted a smarter wizard by simple logic. What started out as an NPC by the DM has actually evolved into one of the funnest characters, abeit it's not longer a DM PC but a PC i ended up making into a character sheet except i didn't get to roll the stats we just grabbed the base stats of orcs out of the book.

Though thus far i don't think we've come across someone in our campaigns as being a DM PC hard core and steal all the spotlight. Most of us are reasonable, so i may be a bit bias not having experienced that.

[JoeNapalm]

There is no such thing as a "GM PC".

There are Player Characters, and Non-Player Characters.

A character run by the GM is, by definition, an NPC. Period. Full stop. End of line.

If they think of that NPC as "their player character" then they are already showing favoritism.

NPCs can be party members. They can run with the team for the entire campaign. But they're still just an NPC.



-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Zilfer]

There is no such thing as a "GM PC".

There are Player Characters, and Non-Player Characters.

A character run by the GM is, by definition, an NPC. Period. Full stop. End of line.

If they think of that NPC as "their player character" then they are already showing favoritism.

NPCs can be party members. They can run with the team for the entire campaign. But they're still just an NPC.



-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

So if you use a player character you use to play or do play in a Party.... to help them out because they don't have a cleric.... <.< that's not a PC it's magically an NPC that session.... which means the DM can do whatever he wants with this NPC thus breaking the boundries of what a PC can do... <.< xD (just joking!)

[JoeNapalm]

Yes.


*Grin*


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[JustADude]

Yes.

*Grin*

The Amnesia thread just made me think...

"Bob Johnson" the NPC amnesiac they're keeping safe from scary people who are chasing him for some unknown reason. Either they do it out of the goodness of their hearts, or because the guy somehow knows how to access a lot of Nuyen and is too paranoid tell the team any information about the accounts. At the end of the story, it turns out they've been helping a Great Dragon that got bonked on the head and forgot how to shape-shift back along with the rest of what he forgot, an Immortal Elf, or maybe "just" someone like Damien Knight with some facially-disfiguring injuries. Rewards and/or punishments for how they treated "Bob" during the story arc ensue.

[Dirtywork]

Being new to SR4 but a vet of SR1 I've been building a character from scratch using the same limitations that my players have. Mostly I'm doing this for the sake of familiarization and practice. I was going to try to rebuild my old SR1 character but being an Orc she's a bit long in the tooth in 2072. Plus she would have been a badass having been running the shadows for decades. But I thought it best to just make her a contact and my groups 1st Mr Johnson. That way I get my nostalgia and the players get a wealthy, seasoned, benefactor.

But I still wanted a new fresh character to build so I did the most unimaginative thing I could come up with and I built the daughter of my old SR1 character. I know. I know. 

I was also looking at the GM-PC "controversy". In SR1 I always used my personal character as more of a support unit and a story element. But once I took one of my characters "off the table" and used them in games that I GMd then I never used that character in an other GMs game. Kind of like a retirement of sorts.

That is the direction I'm going to take now in SR4 as well. At the moment my crew is lacking a sniper so I figured my new Gm-PC could fill that void....for now. As a sniper she would be on a rooftop somewhere providing overwatch and staying out of conversations and plot twists. And because she's starting out with the same 400BP as everyone else she's not going to be an uber 1 woman cavalry coming to save the day. She'll level up like the PCs and if she ends up on the wrong side of the dice I don't have a problem killing her off.

I see GM-PCs as being tools. No different than giving the players a nice vehicle or a cool artifact.

GMs are gamers. They still build characters and still want to play. So by tossing in their own character it allows them to do so. And I think as long as the GM doesn't abuse it or give their PC NPC like powers/abilities, then I personally don't see any problem with a GM wanting to play.

Just my opinion.

[JustADude]

I see GM-PCs as being tools. No different than giving the players a nice vehicle or a cool artifact.

GMs are gamers. They still build characters and still want to play. So by tossing in their own character it allows them to do so. And I think as long as the GM doesn't abuse it or give their PC NPC like powers/abilities, then I personally don't see any problem with a GM wanting to play.

Just my opinion.

First off, I have to say that if a GM wants to play so bad, then they need to get the #*@& out from behind the GM screen and let someone else GM a campaign while they play. Either that or stay back there, play god for the rest of the group, and deal with it like a grown-up. (EDIT: No offense intended to you and your bad luck, CanRay.)

If a GM character is just a tool, like it's supposed to be, then the character is just a friendly NPC. Nothing more. It's certainly not any sort of a Player Character. Why? Simple...

The GM isn't a Player. He's the GM.

And, because it bears repeating... GMs are not Players.

PCs are important. They have story and momentum and personality and gravitas. A well-played PC can have a personality all their own, and leave a player face-palming at the decisions the character has made, because they, the player, would never have made that choice. Their deaths should be momentous occasions; things to be remembered and mourned, possibly even avenged. An NPC, even a well liked one, is just so much cannon fodder. They're just one more puppet in the box, one more thread in the loom for the GM to weave a world with.

The two mind-sets are, or at least should be, utterly different.

The GM is God Almighty in the game. It's his responsibility to make the puppet-strings dance and act out the turmoil and manipulations that makes the game worth playing for his players. He is the director, the narrator, and the referee all in one. He has no business stepping around the GM Screen and getting into the Players' business, treading the steps of the dance and seeking to understand the chaos the GM has planned for them.

Even if you start out with noble intentions, it's never a good idea. Doing so courts ego, favoritism, resentment, disharmony, and disaster. Having your former PC be a "Wise Old Mentor" is already a warning sign. The fact that your "GM-PC" character is the Wise Old Mentor's daughter makes me want to shake you and ask you what the hell you're thinking. You're one very short step from throwing on the conductor's hat and blowing the steam-whistle... and your players won't thank you for it. Get rid of them both, ASAP. Kill them, have them betray the team, do something with them, but get them out of the party.

This is Shadowrun. Giving them "wealthy, seasoned benefactors," hand-holding them, and providing for their every need just dilutes the experience. Throw them to the wolves. Have the Johnson hand them a mission and let them go to town with their contacts and research. Feed them info a scrap at a time. Make them work for it. Make them puzzle and sweat. Make them so paranoid they start checking over their shoulders in real life.



-----



Also, since I severely doubt you're going to take my advice, you should know that Overwatch Sniper, even with a standard 400 BP character, can quickly become God On High. Slinging 16 dice for 13P base damage with AP -8 (and no defense test because they never see it coming) from a silenced rifle is pretty much par for the course for a Sniper. You'll pretty well drop anything but Heavy Assault Trolls and high-Body Vehicles in one shot. Not a good choice for an NPC you want to avoid having the spotlight.

[JoeNapalm]

GMs are gamers. They still build characters and still want to play. So by tossing in their own character it allows them to do so. And I think as long as the GM doesn't abuse it or give their PC NPC like powers/abilities, then I personally don't see any problem with a GM wanting to play.

GMs are gamers, but they are not Players.

GMs get to build and play as many characters as they want. They get to build an entire world.

Every single character in the game that isn't a PC is the GM's to play with.

The problem isn't giving their special NPC "NPC-like powers and abilities" (whatever that means). The problem is that the GM thinks of that one NPC as "their character".

All NPCs are their characters. All of their characters are NPCs. That's what "NPC" means. Non-Player Character. A character run by the GM. The GM, by definition, being the only non-player.

The very definitions of the terms is such that you cannot have a GMPC. Not that you shouldn't (you certainly should not be thinking it), but that you simply can't. GMs are not Players, therefore GM run characters are Non-Player Characters. If the GM believes he is running a GMPC, he is really just running an NPC that they think of as a protagonist.

The term is an oxymoron. The practice is flawed by its very conception.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Zilfer]

I think the above posters are just being very literal. Regardless of what Player, GM, and Character means, what a GMPC means is a Character played by the GM meant to share the story long with the group as if they were playing outside as well. I'll agree it's not done right most of the time but it's not a NEVER do this, sometimes the group need's a little help like if your GMing for 2 people. The "Team" needs a bit more than that. You can call it a protagonist NPC or whatever you like, it's just semantics.

The problem with a GMPC has already been laid out in this topic and by the results of the poll i think most people generally agree if you don't go over the top stealing the spotlight, giving them abilities you'd never let your PC's have then it's generally OK.

It's like Alcohol, some people can have it and not have it affect their lives, and then there are others.... where it slot's them so far they end up rock bottom. Chip truth.

[JoeNapalm]

Zilfer, I have no problem at all with NPCs as party members.

I have a huge problem with an NPC in the team that the GM thinks of as "their PC".


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[Zilfer]

Then we are in agreement.... save for when the NPC is actually a the GM's Player character for when he's not GMing... *shrugs and goes about his business* xD

[Dirtywork]

I see GM-PCs as being tools. No different than giving the players a nice vehicle or a cool artifact.

GMs are gamers. They still build characters and still want to play. So by tossing in their own character it allows them to do so. And I think as long as the GM doesn't abuse it or give their PC NPC like powers/abilities, then I personally don't see any problem with a GM wanting to play.

Just my opinion.

First off, I have to say that if a GM wants to play so bad, then they need to get the #*@& out from behind the GM screen and let someone else GM a campaign while they play. Either that or stay back there, play god for the rest of the group, and deal with it like a grown-up. (EDIT: No offense intended to you and your bad luck, CanRay.)

If a GM character is just a tool, like it's supposed to be, then the character is just a friendly NPC. Nothing more. It's certainly not any sort of a Player Character. Why? Simple...

The GM isn't a Player. He's the GM.

And, because it bears repeating... GMs are not Players.

PCs are important. They have story and momentum and personality and gravitas. A well-played PC can have a personality all their own, and leave a player face-palming at the decisions the character has made, because they, the player, would never have made that choice. Their deaths should be momentous occasions; things to be remembered and mourned, possibly even avenged. An NPC, even a well liked one, is just so much cannon fodder. They're just one more puppet in the box, one more thread in the loom for the GM to weave a world with.

The two mind-sets are, or at least should be, utterly different.

The GM is God Almighty in the game. It's his responsibility to make the puppet-strings dance and act out the turmoil and manipulations that makes the game worth playing for his players. He is the director, the narrator, and the referee all in one. He has no business stepping around the GM Screen and getting into the Players' business, treading the steps of the dance and seeking to understand the chaos the GM has planned for them.

Even if you start out with noble intentions, it's never a good idea. Doing so courts ego, favoritism, resentment, disharmony, and disaster. Having your former PC be a "Wise Old Mentor" is already a warning sign. The fact that your "GM-PC" character is the Wise Old Mentor's daughter makes me want to shake you and ask you what the hell you're thinking. You're one very short step from throwing on the conductor's hat and blowing the steam-whistle... and your players won't thank you for it. Get rid of them both, ASAP. Kill them, have them betray the team, do something with them, but get them out of the party.

This is Shadowrun. Giving them "wealthy, seasoned benefactors," hand-holding them, and providing for their every need just dilutes the experience. Throw them to the wolves. Have the Johnson hand them a mission and let them go to town with their contacts and research. Feed them info a scrap at a time. Make them work for it. Make them puzzle and sweat. Make them so paranoid they start checking over their shoulders in real life.



-----



Also, since I severely doubt you're going to take my advice, you should know that Overwatch Sniper, even with a standard 400 BP character, can quickly become God On High. Slinging 16 dice for 13P base damage with AP -8 (and no defense test because they never see it coming) from a silenced rifle is pretty much par for the course for a Sniper. You'll pretty well drop anything but Heavy Assault Trolls and high-Body Vehicles in one shot. Not a good choice for an NPC you want to avoid having the spotlight.

Relax Dude.

I'm sorry we have different opinions. Had I known it was going to twist your panties this much I wouldn't have posted....well...actually I probably would have posted sooner. I can tell we're gonna be best friends.

First of all you don't know my play style so don't make assumptions. I do not make things easy for my players. I never have. I'm new to SR4 but I've been gaming long enough (1989ish) to know that when it's too easy the players lose interest and they don't invest in their characters or feel a sense of accomplishment.

I know my role as a GM. I don't want or need the spotlight. I am well aware of the responsibilities of running a successful game session. I am also aware of the fine line between being a conductor and being a good GM who allows the players to play, sweat a little, and have a great frakin time. This aint my first rodeo, cowboy.

Make no mistake, my ego has nothing to do with the fact that I want to put my old PC in the game. However my massive ego does have a lot to do with the fact that I'm incredibly good looking and unfathomably awesome....but that has nothing to do with Shadowrun so...moving on....

 As I stated my old PC is getting a few speaking lines simply for the sake of nostalgia. Nothing more. Having been away from Shadowrun for 16 years I don't see the harm of my old PC making a cameo. She's an old burned out Orc street samurai. Trust me...she'll be dead soon enough. But of course you jumped to conclusions and made a few ignorant, yet hilarious, assumptions so you didn't know that. But now you know. And knowing is....say it with me....half the battle. Good boy. 

You make assumptions as to how much interaction my old PC and her "daughter" are going to have with the players. My old PC is going to be Mr. Johnson. That's it. She's not going to be on the team she's not going to influence them or give them anything. She's going to do her job: Set them up with the mission then give them their payout. Simple. I get my nostalgia and get to "play" my old girl one last time and we all get to move on to bigger and better things. Easy and harmless. And you were worried.

And as I said I created a new PC as a form of practice so that I am better informed on the mechanics of the game. If I hope to help my players then I need a solid working knowledge of the mechanics. I learn by doing. If my players have a question I want to be able to answer that question without having to spend 10min flipping pages. That makes at least a lick of sense right?

And just because I have a sniper overwatch does not mean the players have a "God on High". lol You're a bit if a jackwagon but you do make me laugh so +1 for you.

As you said...I am God Almighty (have we met before?). And that means no matter what kind of weapons and gear my "God on High" (giggle) has guess what sparky....she can miss. She can be captured. She can be killed to illustrate to the players just how swiftly death can come to a Shadowrunner. Sending a bullet through the head of my old PCs daughter sends a pretty clear message to my players. She's just a tool. I'm sure you can relate.

You assume I don't know what I'm doing. You assume I'm going to allow my "GMPC" to take center stage. You assume I don't know how to have fun or that I don't know how to let my players have fun. One thing I learned when I first started GMing SR1 was that if you don't show the players a good time then pretty soon you'll be sans players. You have to find a nice balance of sweet and sour to make a campaign work. See buddy...I got this!

As I have admitted I am VERY new to SR4 and I have a lot to learn. But I really don't need people to throw garbage at me. I'm not trying to get into a flame war with other fellow nerds on an RPG forum. I just want to figure out what I've missed over the last 16 years, hang out with a cool community of old and new runners, and have a good time. That's it.

So Dude, your next White Russian is on me brother.