[quindraco]

I want to make a spirit-based mage.  There's a rule on page...... 187? I think, of the latest rulebook - the one covering buying a spirit during chargen with BP.  It includes a rule that bound spirits can't have more services than the summoner's summoning skill.  I have a couple ancillary questions I'll ask first, but the meat of my post has to do with making my character under this rule, because my GM has declared that this will apply to all bound spirits.

1)  Is this actually meant to apply to all spirits, or just the ones bought during chargen?  My GM will house-rule it in if necessary, I'm just curious what the stock rule normally is.
2)  Since there's no cap for your one unbound spirit, which you get using summoning, but there is for bound spirits, which you get using binding, it seems odd that the cap is based on the summoning skill, not the binding skill.  Has this been errataed somewhere I haven't noticed?

Now for the meat of my post:  I can't work out a way to make this work without bleeding nuyen like a stuck piggy bank.  With a set cap of 6 services per spirit no matter how good I get, assuming I stick to Force 6 spirits these services will cost approximately 600 nuyen a shot - 3000 nuyen for the binding materials, and the spirit has to have a service left or it's already left, so the most efficient I can do is to refill from 1 to 6, gaining me 5.  This gets worse as my summoning skill degrades.  My original build had summoning 4/binding 4 and spellcasting 6, which is at best 1000 nuyen per service.

So my character creation question is this: Is my build viable, or should I a) give up on bound spirits as costing too much nuyen and simply rely on 1 unbound spirit at a time, or b) lower my spellcasting to 4 to get my summoning to 6, or c) set both spellcasting and summoning to 5, or d) something else entirely? 

Nuyen will probably be sparse in my game and if I get too clever in terms of getting extra nuyen outside of mission rewards - like having a spirit possess that man in the nice suit and making him hand me that credstick in his pocket - the GM will likely gun for me, making the whole thing a wash, but I am absolutely open to creative methods for solving the nuyen-to-service problem that I haven't thought of.

[Mason]

wow, you must have a really stingy GM when it comes to nuyen, or maybe a low-level campaign. Spending 3K for a binding isn't too terrible, but if you are worried about it, perhaps you should stick with Force 4 or 5 spirits? They are slightly less effective, but they are easier to bind, so you should get more services, and they cost less money too. Maybe one type of spirit is at Force 6, and the rest at 4?

Alternately, just have one or two bound spirits at a time, rather than your full Charisma in spirits. Cutting corners isn't too difficult. Only Call the spirits for aid when the situation really needs them, you know? If you are thrifty, you should be fine.

[UmaroVI]

1) No, that's only buying spirits at chargen (don't do this).

2) No. But it would be a houserule to apply it in general anyways.

3) If you assume max services on Bound spirits is Summoning skill, and you want to be a bound-spirit-based mage, here's how you do it most effectively:

Elf.
Voodoo.
5 Willpower, 5 Magic, 7 Charisma. You don't particularly need any other stats, and I do not recommend overspending on them. You need skills more.
As soon as possible, get the Invoking metamagic (you should probably spend your first karma on joining a magical group if you can, then initiate 3 times for Centering/Invoking/Channeling).
The usual restricted gear for a force 4 power focus etc etc. I'd likely skip out on any other foci and just rely on Possession for combat, because you will have BP-shortage like whoa.
Get a mentor spirit that gives you a bonus to Guardian spirits.
Skills-wise, I'd actually take Summoning 4, Binding 6, Spellcasting 4 still. I actually think Spellcasting 6 instead is sensible too but it depends what you want to focus on.

How does this work? Invoking and Possession are what makes this fly. Why? Well, first, even low-force possession spirits are extremely effective if you stick them into a good vessel - like a dead, cybered-up troll, or a living cybered-up troll. This is because they add their Force to physical stats...and even if they have low force, if the starting creature had good stats, they are still very nasty. Invoking, meanwhile, doesn't make binding more expensive but it does make spirits way more dangerous.

The upshot is that you can get a lot of mileage out of modest-force (probably 3) Invoked spirits. If you're good at Binding, you can cough up some really, really crazy powerful great form Guardian spirits. Cycle through new spirits until you get a whole truckload of hits on Invoking, and then keep that one around (and keep re-binding it when it gets low). And with Force 3 spirits, it's only 1500 nuyen. 375 nuyen a service isn't really that bad.

Also, if your GM allows custom lifestyles (Runner's Companion), the one that gets you an aspected domain in your home is pro.

Assuming you have Magic 5, Binding 6, Guardian spec, Guardian mentor, the power focus, and the aspected domain, you can Invoke a force 3 guardian spirit with 24 dice. That's 8 hits on average..and since you aren't really taking much drain it's safe to only rebind ones that get, say, 10+ hits on that. Because of how possession works, if you stick it in an ork and give it armor and weapons, it's plenty capable of holding its own.

Because Invoking gives extra Optional Powers, you can actually get away with force 2 or even 1 spirits mechanically, although they do have crap mental stats. Your GM may screw with you if you rely on force 1 spirits to do anything but really simple tasks, maybe you can get away with force 2, but you can save lots of cash this way too since most of your power is actually coming out of Invoking, not the base force.

[quindraco]

Thanks for the tips!  Especially you, Umaro.  Your math is a bit off - at 1500 nuyen to *recharge* a spirit, that's actually 500 nuyen a service at summoning 4, but I am keen to look into your advice on making low-force spirits rock to keep costs down. 

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, I was calculating 375 for a "new" spirit. That will indeed be 500 for a recharge; that's why I only recommend recharging when you get high results on Invoking.

One neat trick, incidentally, is Edge. If you get an already above-average Invoking test (say 10+ hits on 22 dice, for example), you can use an Edge to reroll the misses and jack that up to 14-15-ish hits. Then you make sure to always recharge that spirit - the edge is a one-time cost. If you're patient, you can probably build up a stable of low-force, heavily Invoked spirits.

[Xzylvador]

Sorry to thread-hijack here, but this being related to Spirit-based mages, I thought I'd shoot anyhow:
I get that spirits can be made incredibly powerful (especially possession, but even 'lesser' spirits) and that a mage built around this concept can be awesome. So much so in fact that I'd consider it overpowered, but rule are rules, right? But why does noone ever (both from GM side as player side) ever seem to keep that other rule into consideration, that silly rule that doesn't have a true mechanical effect... though it prbably should:

"Most spirits resent attempts to bind them, as it turns the relationship be- tween magician and spirit from a short-term contract between equals (or near equals) to a forced servitude for an extended period of time. (Some pro-spirit groups even go so far as to claim that binding a spirit is the equivalent to enslaving a sentient being.)"

This is one of the most important parts of the whole summoning chapter imo.
Shamans, Druids, Voodoo-mages etc pretty much worship spirits, yet here it's suggested they should just 'cycle through them' and 'keep the strongest bound pretty much indefinitely'.  What?! These magical beings which you worship and beg to for aid, you're just treating them like tools or slaves? Nice, very in character. And I'm sure all the other Shamans/Priests in that group you joined for Initiation discounts will appreciate you enslaving their deity(ies) or the servant(s) and messengers thereof.
I could accept Hermetic and Chaos mages and the likes actually considering and treating spirits like tools, but even there, shouldn't the GM have the spirit spent edge on every opposed test? "You want to bind that Force 6 Spirits? Sure, go right ahead, just let me dig up these 18 exploding dice."  Why would it to anything less than do all in its power to defy you?
Oh, and you managed to do all that binding, expect all your summoning dice to be resisted by a spirit using edge too. Word will get out in the spirit world about how you treat the spirits that answered your summons.
And of course, stay out of the way of places often frequented by Spirit-worshipping/devoting mages (most of the Cha and Int based ones?), they might just object when they see you dragging around that spirit like a dog on a leash and decide it needs to be liberated.

Does noone make a point of this in game? Or do we all get that special "This spirit (which at force 6 is a superiour being to you in pretty much every way, being smarter, faster, stronger etc) is so friendly to you that it doesn't mind being leashed 24/7 and ordered around like a simple dog"? from a friendly GM?

Sorry if the style of writing seems a bit harsh, this is just something that's really been bugging me more and more lately. It really is meant as a question: Does anyone ever use that "spirits hate being your servants" rule or is it ignored for more fun building and playing mages?

[UmaroVI]

Well, the point is that it's not a rule. Or, rather, it's not all of a rule. Most GMs do indeed go with "if you abuse bound or summoned spirits by using them as suicide bombers, overusing some of the binding tasks that damage the spirit, or the like, spirits begin using Edge to resist."

It sounds like what you're saying is that this "rule" should mean that nobody uses Binding or that spirits always spend edge to resist Binding. But if Binding wasn't meant to exist...why does it exist? And if spirits were supposed to always spend edge to resist Binding...why not cut out the middleman and just have them resist with Force x 3?

My opinion is that the mechanics behind this rule is that this is why spirits resist Binding with Force x 2, but resist Summoning with only Force. I don't think all magicians have to roleplay the same way, but I don't actually see anything Quindraco said about how he planned to roleplay his magician. Maybe he intends to treat bound spirits respectfully? Maybe he has an idea for a particular tradition in mind?

[Xzylvador]

<snip> I don't actually see anything Quindraco said about how he planned to roleplay his magician. Maybe he intends to treat bound spirits respectfully? Maybe he has an idea for a particular tradition in mind?

Only, the way I read it, bounding is always disrespectful... there is no respectful kind of slavery.
And some of the stuff I said was more aimed towards you than at Quindraco, Umaro. Don't get me wrong, I understand that you're giving out advice on charbuilding, most of it pretty damned good. But just working with pure crunch & numbers, disregarding or even going straight against 'fluff' sometimes makes my munchkin-sense tingle. I get that it's kind of hard to give advice on that field though, as things like that are a more personal than mechanical matter.
I applaud you on lots of your work here on charbuild board, it's just that things like "Elf, max Cha, Voodoo tradition, cycle through spirits and bind the good one(s) forever" makes me wonder whether players (and/or GM's) actually consider this a valid play style, ignoring the whole "spirits will hate you" part.

[Lethe]

First two corrections:
- only most spirits resent the binding
- only some (deranged) pro-spirit groups go so far and call it enslaving, not the spirits - they are only annoyed about it
- spirits only use edge to resist summoning, if the conjurer has a history of mistreating spirits

I agree with Umaro here. As long as you don't torture or abuse the spirits (binding is neither) the spirits are fine.
And while it might be unusual for charisma based mages to bind their spirits, it doesn't mean that they don't respect them anymore. Cycling through spirits is just a technical term and also says nothing about the relationship to the spirit.

[JustADude]

- only most spirits resent the binding

It also, for me, depends greatly on the tradition's "flavor." One like Voodoo that beseech the summoned spirits for favors and whose binding rituals involve lots of offerings and praise and general ass-kissing... well, they're going to have spirits that like them a lot better than ones whose "flavor" involves coercing the spirits or seeing them as nothing but tools, if only because of the caster's general attitude towards them.

Think "These are powerful and cryptic being that descend from the spirit realms to aid me. I must not waste their time frivolously!" vs "I need to warm my coffee, but I don't want to get up. I know, I'll summon a Fire Elemental!"

[UmaroVI]

The other thing I'd point out is that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're going with "if you use binding all spirits hate you," well, that has huge consequences for the game world. Bound spirits are nice for runners, and 100% vital for magical security that's worth a damn. Is your GM going to enforce this on NPC wagemages, and have spirits guarding stuff always very angry and resentful, and also much lower force than the spirits PC mages can get with Summoning (because they resist with Force x3 versus Force), and have NPC mages who summon spirits always have the spirit use Edge to resist?

[BreederofPuppets]

There is another consideration.  The book using words like summoning and binding, because, once a upon a time, it was hermetic mages that could summon and bind elementals to themselves, not the only other type of spell caster, the shaman.  The shaman would call- not summon- a nature spirit.  That nature spirit would be asked to serve the shaman, and, depending on the roll, the spirit would agree to a number of sevices (or just leave if you rolled bad enough, or attack you, if you somehow really insulted it).  Elementals, on the other hand, were simple constructs a mage formed through his knowledge of magic and the strength of the summoner's will.  An elemental could have easily been describe as a machine, made of magic.


But now every caster can summon (call, pray, mental construct, bargain, etc) any kind of spirit.  It is up to the caster if what he summons is the spirit of fire, or a shard of Thor's chariot, or a extension of the caster's will, wreathed in elemental flame.  And remember that the binding has a cost.  Who says its simply a bunch of herbs that are burnt during a ritual.  Maybe its rare coins used as a bribe for the services.  Perhaps is a rare set of cards and gems that the caster uses to engage the spirit in a card game with, and the services are what the summoner gets when he wins the pot.  Or maybe its cases of the best booze in town, and the summoner splits the alcohol with the spirit, getting it rip roaring drunk, until it foolishly swears fealty to the summoner.


I, for one, actually feel insulted at the idea that some one would assume that I would encourage slavery of any kind, even in an imaginary world.  This is made worse because the accuser refused to exercise a little bit of imagination.

[All4BigGuns]

There is another consideration.  The book using words like summoning and binding, because, once a upon a time, it was hermetic mages that could summon and bind elementals to themselves, not the only other type of spell caster, the shaman.  The shaman would call- not summon- a nature spirit.  That nature spirit would be asked to serve the shaman, and, depending on the roll, the spirit would agree to a number of sevices (or just leave if you rolled bad enough, or attack you, if you somehow really insulted it).  Elementals, on the other hand, were simple constructs a mage formed through his knowledge of magic and the strength of the summoner's will.  An elemental could have easily been describe as a machine, made of magic.


But now every caster can summon (call, pray, mental construct, bargain, etc) any kind of spirit.  It is up to the caster if what he summons is the spirit of fire, or a shard of Thor's chariot, or a extension of the caster's will, wreathed in elemental flame.  And remember that the binding has a cost.  Who says its simply a bunch of herbs that are burnt during a ritual.  Maybe its rare coins used as a bribe for the services.  Perhaps is a rare set of cards and gems that the caster uses to engage the spirit in a card game with, and the services are what the summoner gets when he wins the pot.  Or maybe its cases of the best booze in town, and the summoner splits the alcohol with the spirit, getting it rip roaring drunk, until it foolishly swears fealty to the summoner.


I, for one, actually feel insulted at the idea that some one would assume that I would encourage slavery of any kind, even in an imaginary world.  This is made worse because the accuser refused to exercise a little bit of imagination.

The binding materials are intentionally vague, in my opinion. What they would be would depend on your tradition and how your character views his tradition. So basically, they can be just about anything.  On that note, the traditions that by the 'fluff' would be respectful or even worship the spirits would likely not be 'binding' persay, but giving pleas and offerings for the spirit to 'stick around' longer and give more favors.

[Orvich]

Indeed. I'm playing an Aztec Tradition somewhat-dark-priesty sort of character who summons the envoys of the gods (I picked an aztec god for each of my types) to ask favors in staving off what he thinks is the impending end of the world for good.

None of his binding spirits he himself summoned is anything like slavery, in fact he makes a point of using at least one box of damage using the sacrifice metamagic on himself when he summons a powerful spirit, the idea being that he offers some of his own blood in payment for assistance, and that his 'binding' isn't binding the spirit to him, it's binding it to the world. For many traditions/backstories, there isn't much of a reason that powerful spirits wouldn't be willing to help out the character, and it's not weird at all!

I imagine that most spirits would LOVE being called down to the world, especially the more powerful ones that have a chance to break free and become free spirits. Some of these might even try to promote having weak/annoying summoners summon them and try to bind them, and wouldn't resist the summon roll (but would suddenly throw up resistance when a binding attempt was made).

[All4BigGuns]

Indeed. I'm playing an Aztec Tradition somewhat-dark-priesty sort of character who summons the envoys of the gods (I picked an aztec god for each of my types) to ask favors in staving off what he thinks is the impending end of the world for good.

None of his binding spirits he himself summoned is anything like slavery, in fact he makes a point of using at least one box of damage using the sacrifice metamagic on himself when he summons a powerful spirit, the idea being that he offers some of his own blood in payment for assistance, and that his 'binding' isn't binding the spirit to him, it's binding it to the world. For many traditions/backstories, there isn't much of a reason that powerful spirits wouldn't be willing to help out the character, and it's not weird at all!

I imagine that most spirits would LOVE being called down to the world, especially the more powerful ones that have a chance to break free and become free spirits. Some of these might even try to promote having weak/annoying summoners summon them and try to bind them, and wouldn't resist the summon roll (but would suddenly throw up resistance when a binding attempt was made).

Your GM let you play a blood mage? Wow. Now I want some of my characters to meet him--they could use that bounty money.