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Ghostwalker

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lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #90 on: <06-14-12/2234:42> »
Thank you for your responses it doesn't sound like how i'd spend my gaming time but then again I feel the same way about Cthulu. Moving on:

Actually Dunkelzhan was killed by a very powerful but presumably conventional bomb. I would be very saddened if anything in the game, including dragons stood up to a near brush even a Shadowrun nuclear explosive. But that's beside the point, conventional explosives, laser weaponry, thor shots, all that stuff is still staggeringly powerful. Many of them can be deployed rapidly, also have a relatively small footprint,  not small as in trivial but "small as in the Azzies would likely accept it" size. They are the reasons most of the dragon's move behind the scenes or surreptitiously. Not Ghosty though.

Xzylvador: No force 20 spells sound about right, and Harly's immune to most of the other ways you get around stuff like that between being a powerful mage and an Immortal Elf. What i'm saying is that at some point "If we stat things people will kill them" became a reason not to stat them, which is missing the point. If people can come up with a way to have their characters get a crack at the greats they should have a chance, no matter how small of killing them. The nice thing about Shadowrun however is very few of the great powers (dragon, immortal elf, AAA CEO) would be limited to their stat blocks. One of the appealing things about Harley is he eschews most of that and relies on his own juice.

Also, at least as of Dragons of the Sixth world (one of these days i'll get around to reading the Denver update in Spy Games, i'm so far behind) Ghostwalker was literally holding SK out of Denver, maybe they've reversed that, that's fine, all the better for it.
"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

Critias

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« Reply #91 on: <06-14-12/2254:37> »
Actually Dunkelzhan was killed by a very powerful but presumably conventional bomb.
Sort of.

Bull

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« Reply #92 on: <06-14-12/2305:21> »
Actually Dunkelzhan was killed by a very powerful but presumably conventional bomb.
Sort of.

Heh.

Plus, well.,.  Dunkie LET himself be killed.  he shut down all his protections, his contingency spells, dismissed his protective spirits, etc.   He committed suicide. :)

CanRay

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« Reply #93 on: <06-15-12/0006:09> »
I personally pity the people who planted that bomb when 'runners like FastJack find them...
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Wakshaani

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« Reply #94 on: <06-15-12/0044:32> »
Now Wakshanni (great post by the way) and others have outlined why GW didn't get iced during or after his attack.  For me it makes sense and its consistent. For me, taking out the Great would make less.  I feel that your opinion is the opposite.  Such is life..

Thank you! That always brings a smile to my face, and gets you a +1. :)

And, as Critias said, there's really no wrong way to play Shadowrun. Bull isn't going to come to your house, kick teh door open, and take all your books if you decide that all your Orks should talk in Cockney accents and wear Laederhosen. Oh, he'll die a little inside, but you get to keep your stuff.

I've seen grim n gritty Shadowrun, where Dragonhunt would be considered a HAPPY ending, Cyber Noir (My own personal game), frentic Pink Mohawk action, attempts at ultra-professional Ocean's Eleven stuff, high-magic Dragonball Z-like anime fighting style stuff, and a dozen more.

Shadowrun has a LOT of angles. I always encourage people to experiment, see what works best for them. Maybe you like jet-setting and dispoable 10,000 Nuyen IDs, and maybe you like rat-on-a-stick meals and runners that envy the good fortune of Peter Parker. It's all good!

Heck, back in the day, there were guidelines for playing a game as rookie street scum, a Docwagon team, or even serve and protect as Lone Star officers. It really is a great launching pad for all KINDS of stuff.

ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #95 on: <06-15-12/0059:07> »
Really, Peter Parker might as well be in a D zone for his apartment conditions. The only lifestyle categiry he shelled out for was neighborhood.

sidslick

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« Reply #96 on: <06-15-12/1346:11> »
Wow, I seem to have opened Pandora's Box with this thread.  However, I am quite enjoying how the conversation has developed!  :P

<Scribbles more notes, furiously>
Travel the world; meet new people; crush them for all they are worth!

Xzylvador

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« Reply #97 on: <06-15-12/1414:15> »
Well, don't let it go to your head... these boards even a thread about drop bears could turn into an epic and eternal flame war battle. ;)

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #98 on: <06-15-12/1623:12> »
I want hopelessness, I'll watch the evening news.
It's certainly not to be informed. TV news is worthless.
I thought we'd established that a long time ago.

I think a lot of you would pelt me with rocks and garbage if you were to play in one of my games. I clearly don't do it nearly dark and grimy enough for you. I prefer -- hell, I don't just prefer it, I require it -- there to be a ray of hope in my games, and in general the player characters are going to be pursuing that for some of my movers and shakers. They may not realize it, they might just be doing it for the money, but they're out there trying to make the world better.

Some of my efforts, whether people realized it at the time or not, are in fact canon at this point. I just need to finish making McAllister's life miserable for a while so I can document it a bit more fully.
Former Shadowrun Errata Coordinator

Bira

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« Reply #99 on: <06-15-12/1704:35> »
Wow, this thread grew while I was away.

Me, I like dark settings only as far as they can be made brighter through the application of PCs. I would definitely not play in any table whose GM gets a kick out of making Warhammer 40K look like kindergarten.

Reading some of the "verisimilitude" arguments in this thread, I'm left wondering how many of the same people who say "you can never ever hurt the 'greats' because that's realistic" also say to the PCs "No matter how powerful they get, no one will be truly safe from a random punk with a gun because that's realistic." They can't both be true :D. If no one is safe from a punk with a gun, why can't a punk with a gun kill one of those NPCs given the right circumstances? I tend to find that, in general, these NPCs are a lot more untouchable in the minds of certain players than in the actual text.

Which brings us back around to the "retribution" argument. Mirikon basically says "if you don't do anything too bad, the corps won't even notice you, but pissing someone specific off is certain death". But that archetypal run I mentioned does involve doing something "bad enough" - you're stealing vital research! Or maybe extracting a disgruntled genius along with his irreplaceable body of work. Ares would be a lot angrier about that than about someone stealing Knight's gun collection, and yet they somehow can't do anything about it as long as the players are following the script.

For a more concrete example, you have Ghost Cartels, where the PCs get to kill the top Yakuza boss in Seattle and get away with it. And there's a Missions adventure that asks PCs to blow up the Brooklin Bridge and expects them to still be around for the rest of the campaign if they succeed. There's less retribution thrown at the PCs for going through those published adventures than there is for them going off the rails and stealing cars in that Dumpshock thread I mentioned. So my thesis is that this sort of invincible retaliation is more often a punishment for deviating from the script than it is a logical consequence of the setting, which is after all about doing daring heists and living to tell the tale.

Netzgeist

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« Reply #100 on: <06-15-12/1719:03> »
Just my 0.2 ¥ on the issue of retribution by a Great, another individual and a Corporation:
Revenge is a losers game - most of the times, it's not a profitable endeavor. But an individual person may as well think just with it's liver (sorry, don't know if the expression exists in English) and do a huge thing in order to fix his broken pride. Dragons are also a proud kin, but Corporation usually will think with their wallets.

Not that there aren't some really, really strange situations in some games, but that's how I see a lot of thing.

ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #101 on: <06-15-12/1733:42> »
Damien Knight would hire operatives to find his guns and shrug it off. Most Greats would do the same with their non-magical possessions. But steal from Aden, Sirrug, or Ryumyo, and I doubt it would mattet it was the Eye of Vecna or a Joe Orkie baseball card, there'd be war. Aden and Sirrug for the insult, Ryumyo for honor.

Most of my games devolve to the players only taking jobs against the same corps or crime boss or 2 (in the last game, the Denver Vory until a player managed to take it over). I guess they figure if you're already on their shitlist, no use in expanding your list of enemies.

Xzylvador

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« Reply #102 on: <06-15-12/1839:37> »
If no one is safe from a punk with a gun, why can't a punk with a gun kill one of those NPCs given the right circumstances?

I'm sorry, did you miss Harley's always-present defenses that I posted? And that's nothing compared to the Dragons.
The corporate CEO's are the 'easiest' targets, though you can expect their security to be that of the US president times a thousand. 'Punk with a gun' won't get anywhere near them and even if they somehow did would be taken down by a sniper or a wagemage before he raise the weapon.

And as for the whole retribution thing, the reason 'runners don't usually get too much retribution for their actions is the same reason they aren't a threat to the guys on top: runners are pawns. They're tools used to complete a job.
If your top-secret research gets stolen, tracking down the team of runners will be
1. quite hard simply because of the fact that they are so 'lowly', they're a bunch of common people hiding in a city/country full of common people.
2. useless when you get them because they'll have already passed on said research to a guy named "Mr. Johnson"
So unless they went out of their way to really piss off the person/company (or they're just in a really bad mood), their victim's resources are much better spent trying to find out who sent the runners, how to undo the damage, retrieve the stolen property or get revenge at the real enemy.

Mirikon

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« Reply #103 on: <06-15-12/1852:03> »
Which brings us back around to the "retribution" argument. Mirikon basically says "if you don't do anything too bad, the corps won't even notice you, but pissing someone specific off is certain death". But that archetypal run I mentioned does involve doing something "bad enough" - you're stealing vital research! Or maybe extracting a disgruntled genius along with his irreplaceable body of work. Ares would be a lot angrier about that than about someone stealing Knight's gun collection, and yet they somehow can't do anything about it as long as the players are following the script.

You're not getting my point, Bira. Ares will only hunt you as long as it is economically feasible. Stealing research? Extracting lab techs? That's part of the Great Game. Ares won't go after the runners, unless they are sloppy and easily caught, they'll go after the person who orchestrated the run. But steal from Knight himself? Knight himself has the resources to have you hunted down like a dog, and he's the kind of vengeful person who WILL carry a grudge. Ares as a company won't care, but Knight may make a point of seeing you hung up by your entrails for it.

For a more concrete example, you have Ghost Cartels, where the PCs get to kill the top Yakuza boss in Seattle and get away with it. And there's a Missions adventure that asks PCs to blow up the Brooklin Bridge and expects them to still be around for the rest of the campaign if they succeed. There's less retribution thrown at the PCs for going through those published adventures than there is for them going off the rails and stealing cars in that Dumpshock thread I mentioned. So my thesis is that this sort of invincible retaliation is more often a punishment for deviating from the script than it is a logical consequence of the setting, which is after all about doing daring heists and living to tell the tale.
You need more context here, Bira. Are they supposed to pin the blame for the Yakuza hit on someone else? Did they have an angel keeping their names off the radar? The Yakuza will certainly send hitters after the group, though. But that isn't the overwhelming asswhooping you'd be in for if you personally tweaked the nose of a megacorp CEO. As for the Bridge, how 'blown up' are we talking? Enough to be made unservicable until repaired? Or complete demolition? Because the latter one would get some serious retaliation, unless someone was pulling strings behind the scenes to keep that from happening. But you'd probably move a few spots up on the FBI's "To Do" list, regardless. Moreover, blowing up the bridge isn't targeting a single individual.

Targeting the organization? That can be ignored as part of the Great Game, and dealt with as normal. Directly attacking one of the uber-powerful? That is a personal affront that cannot be overlooked without conveying weakness. The size of the retribution will depend on the size of the insult, and how ruthless or petty the person is, but there will be retribution.
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ChromeZephyr

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« Reply #104 on: <06-15-12/1938:33> »
Wow, this thread grew while I was away.

They seem to do that, I've noticed.  ;D

Reading some of the "verisimilitude" arguments in this thread, I'm left wondering how many of the same people who say "you can never ever hurt the 'greats' because that's realistic" also say to the PCs "No matter how powerful they get, no one will be truly safe from a random punk with a gun because that's realistic." They can't both be true :D. If no one is safe from a punk with a gun, why can't a punk with a gun kill one of those NPCs given the right circumstances? I tend to find that, in general, these NPCs are a lot more untouchable in the minds of certain players than in the actual text.

I think the difference is one of scale. Getting a punk with a gun in a spot to splatter the brains of the top-of-the-food-chain-NPCs against the wall vs getting them in place to do the same vs the PCs or, say a middle-management NPC is that the TOTFCNPCs didn't get there by accident.  They got there through brains, firepower, luck, supernatural advantage in some cases, and hard experience.  It should be tremendously difficult to get the drop on them and if you manage to do so, well, that's why they have those contingency-plan-quickened/anchored/what-have-you ultra-high rating spells and spirits for.  Add in the fact that most of the beings that are on the "functionally immortal" list have been around for so long that just by being that old they have seen quite a bit of what people are capable of, so surprising them is just that much more difficult.  Anyone can die, but geeking Joe Manager is going to be a lot easier to accomplish than geeking Damien Knight.  So much so that I would think it wouldn't actually be worth the effort to do so, and even if it is (Art Dankwalkther comes to mind) the other mega-entities of the setting will see fit to make you not a threat to their status quo.  *shrug*  I'd say to my players that if you want a shot at Lofwyr or Ghostwalker, start saving up for the leonization treatments or brainwashing adherents, 'cause you're going to need to play the same long game they do to do so, which tends to be beyond the scope of the game.

Well, that was rather long-winded of me.  TL;DR: They're not un-killable, just probably not worth the stupidly huge amount of difficulty to do so.

Which brings us back around to the "retribution" argument. Mirikon basically says "if you don't do anything too bad, the corps won't even notice you, but pissing someone specific off is certain death". But that archetypal run I mentioned does involve doing something "bad enough" - you're stealing vital research! Or maybe extracting a disgruntled genius along with his irreplaceable body of work. Ares would be a lot angrier about that than about someone stealing Knight's gun collection, and yet they somehow can't do anything about it as long as the players are following the script.

For a more concrete example, you have Ghost Cartels, where the PCs get to kill the top Yakuza boss in Seattle and get away with it. And there's a Missions adventure that asks PCs to blow up the Brooklin Bridge and expects them to still be around for the rest of the campaign if they succeed. There's less retribution thrown at the PCs for going through those published adventures than there is for them going off the rails and stealing cars in that Dumpshock thread I mentioned. So my thesis is that this sort of invincible retaliation is more often a punishment for deviating from the script than it is a logical consequence of the setting, which is after all about doing daring heists and living to tell the tale.

This I agree and disagree with you on.  There's a certain suspension of disbelief that has to exist for Shadowrun to even exist, vis á vis the realism of the response to a team's actions.  So I would expect that if the setting says "losses due to shadowruns are built into the bottom line as a cost of doing business" that corps would only bring down the thunder (or Thor shots as the case may be) on actions that would cripple them (which most teams simply aren't capable of by themselves), rather than simply cause them to lose .01% of that fiscal year's profit margins.  Pride, though, becomes a different matter and that's what you're generally hitting if you do something against the mega-powers of the setting.  That said, icing the oyabun of Seatle seems a bit far-fetched, at least for a team not composed of "prime runners".  So I agree with you there.  The Missions stuff I tend to give a bit of a pass to, as it's for conventions and not long-term play, so I guess I expect a certain degree of railroading and "no you can't kill them" if only to keep in the time restrictions of the 'con.

As for the specific thread you mention on Dumpshock...that just seemed silly to me, on both sides.  If your players want to do that to the exclusion of what you as the GM are trying to do, maybe it's just time for someone else to run a different game.  That way (hopefully) both sides can have fun.

 

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