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Optimization Theory

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Anachronaut

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« on: <06-27-12/2050:01> »
I was just curious if we could get a thread going for just general optimization strategies such as the famous "Skills at 1 or 4" rule.

How do you look at a character when someone posts it up on this forum?

Really just looking to amass tips for building SR4 characters in general.

gargaM0NK

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« Reply #1 on: <06-30-12/2339:08> »
Because Build Points (BP) have a flat cost, and karma point costs increase with level, I like my characters to start out heavily emphasizing a niche, and then growing more diverse over time.

If your character is combat-focused, agility is important.  If you're tech focused, bonuses to logic-linked skills are important.  If you're a mage, your drain stat is important.

I generally start with a synergy of some sort.  My current character, as an example, is a face / charisma-traditioned magician.  Both roles use charisma, so that gives me something to focus on.

Dice Pools
Rather than being so-so at 10 things, I want as many dice as possible in my one, then a second, etc.  For charisma, I have a couple options on raising the stat.  If I go elf I can have a higher base.  Similarly I can raise it with Exceptional Attribute or SURGE.  Also by taking Genetic Optimization.  Finally, if I can cast spells I can use Improved Attribute (Charisma).  Any of these could help me get more dice in my charisma, which would affect both my social skills and my drain soaking.  Magic and bio/cyber-ware are the two main ways of increasing your pools without spending a bunch of BP.  Hence the adage, anything a mundane can do, and adept can do with +5 dice.

Your dice pool (at least in Missions) is limited to 20 dice or 2*(attribute+ability), whichever is higher.  So when I'm going for 21+, I make sure to focus on raising my actual attribute or ability, in addition to bonus dice.

Your maximum attribute score, in turn, is limited by your base.  Exceptional Attribute, SURGE, or Genetic Optimization, then, are particularly valuable because they raise the augmented maximum.   That said, they're expensive.  20BP of quality, Distinctive style, or essence loss.  SURGE in particular is great value, except for the -3 to perception rolls against you from DS.

'Ware
Few characters would not benefit from 1 essence worth of 'ware.

For ware, keep in mind that -.1 essence loses you no more magic/resonance than 1.0.  So try to spend in whole points.  Also, combine bio and cyber to get at 50% essence discount on whichever is lower.  Mathematically, the closer you can get them to even, the more you'll benefit from the discount.  So for 1pt of essence, .7 worth of bioware and .6 worth of cyberware would be almost the most you could squeeze into 1 point of essence loss.

Combat
Unless you have a plan for avoiding combat entirely, try to get as many passes as you can, a high dodge pool (especially reaction + bonuses that apply without declaring a dodge action), and high armor.

For armor, use a combination of Form-fitting (which combines with other armor but only encumbers by half), softwoven armor (which reduces the encumbrance of the higher value by your strenth, and SecureTech PPP to balance out ballistic / impact.  I look for bonuses like -2 to detecting objects hidden under (long coat) or -4 to perceive the character (ruthenium).

If your character has good combat stats, look for automatic bursts / high damage weapons (combat axe).  If you're not, look for something that just has to hit, like stick-n-shock.  Grenade launchers (I favor narcoject + DMSO splash grenades) can be the easiest to hit with, but don't forget the Airburst link or people can leave the area before they explode.

Misc
For contacts, I find 6/1 to be the best value.  High connection means they do the most for you, and you can scrimp on BP for loyalty if you don't mind paying for their help / increasing loyalty through RP.

There are so many useful positive qualities, I almost always take 35 points, or close to it.  But BP are so scarce, I always take 35 negative.  Play around with different negative qualities until you find ones that either a) don't slow you down in your niche or b) better yet, you enjoy playing.  I like characters who remember to check the news daily, so I play a disproportionate number of characters with Media Junky.

A good rule of thumb is 1BP = 2 Karma.  With that in mind, look for ways you can get something at character creation for < 1/2 the karma cost in BP.  An attribute of 5, for instance, cost 10 BP instead of 25 karma.  A skill at 6 is 4BP instead of 12karma.

Skills are generally the easiest thing to raise with karma, so I assign BP there last, and often have a bunch of ones.  Specializations are *AMAZING*, but cost the same amount in Karma they do in BP.  Get them shortly after creation, rather than during.

Glyph

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« Reply #2 on: <07-01-12/0313:38> »
Some general tips:

Getting the maximum Attribute is disproportionately expensive, which is why you hear the term "soft-maxing" so much around here.  Skills, on the other hand, have a flat cost all the way up to the maximum - the only limit is that you can only have one 6 or two 5's.  For most builds, you should do so.

Magic, augmentations, or (expecially for adepts) both, all give disproportionately cheap bonuses to your character.  This actually fits the transhumanist theme of the game.

Dice pools are very important, especially for combat, magical, or social skills, which typically involve opposed dice contests with a lot of potential negative modifiers.  Typically, this involves soft-maxed Attribute, maxed-out skill, and dice pool modifiers.  Augmentations and magic are important because they can improve all three components of the dice pool.  Let's take a street samurai, for example.  He starts out with a base Agility of 5, and a skill of 6 in automatics, with a specialization in assault rifles.  So when he is using his trusty Ares Alpha, he can roll 13 dice.  But let's give this street samurai muscle toner: 4 (bought in conjunction with the Restricted Gear quality, and raising his Agility), a reflex recorder (raising his automatics skill to 7), and cybereyes with a smartlink, giving him another +2 to his dice pool.  Now his dice pool is 20 dice.

Generally, Shadowrun characters tend to be "eggshells with hammers", able to deal deadly attacks but vulnerable to them in turn.  So tactics can become very important.  Soaking damage is good, dodging damage is better, and not being spotted at all or springing an ambush on an enemy is the very best of all.

Lethe

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« Reply #3 on: <07-01-12/0440:43> »
The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation.

Nobody is forced to keep up with their hyper-optimized teammates.
You can create your character freely as seems fit.
Skill ranges between 1 and 4 are viable, what you else will never see.
You only spend 4 karma instead of 4 BP for level one skills, which helps a lot to fluff characters out with a couple of them.
The result will be more realistic characters.

Critias

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« Reply #4 on: <07-01-12/0528:19> »
The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.

Mara

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« Reply #5 on: <07-01-12/0542:49> »
The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.

Yeah: Optimized characters are NOT realistic. I have an optimized character that drops 22 dice for Perception! I spent so many points
building the character to max out perception that, ultimately, the character is almost useless in any roll other then "I see the Ambush first!"

Lethe

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« Reply #6 on: <07-01-12/0603:20> »
The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
If all characters are optimized, no character is optimized. Optimization is just removed from the equation. Not bound to rules of optimization leads to more variety and therefore realism.

Xzylvador

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« Reply #7 on: <07-01-12/0645:00> »
I think you're missing one of the the most important charbuilding tips of all:
If the rest of your table isn't playing with 'optimized' characters and/or your GM isn't building sessions with optimized characters in mind, DO NOT show up with an optimized character. It will ruin the game for everyone, including yourself.

JustADude

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« Reply #8 on: <07-01-12/0735:38> »
I think you're missing one of the the most important charbuilding tips of all:
If the rest of your table isn't playing with 'optimized' characters and/or your GM isn't building sessions with optimized characters in mind, DO NOT show up with an optimized character. It will ruin the game for everyone, including yourself.

It's really hard to not optimize, in some ways.

In some ways, really, lower "starting" optimization can even get you better results in the long run. An Elf Sammie with Agility 5(7), for example, is "suboptimal", but with a Suprathyroid Gland and Muscle Toner 4, said Elf exactly hits the hard-cap at 5(10) without wasting 10 BP for softcapping Agility.
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
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"Being average just means that half of everyone you meet is better than you."
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Glyph

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« Reply #9 on: <07-01-12/1005:57> »
Karmagen is a good way to optimize, if your GM allows it... because with 750 Karma, even with the errata and paying for your knowledge skills, your character will still tend to come out better than under 400 BP.  Specialist characters come out a bit better, and more generalist builds come out a lot better.

Optimized characters can dominate a game if they are the only optimized characters, and that can create a backlash.  So look at the overall power level of the table, and what the GM's style is.  If you still prefer optimized characters, then remember that they often draw the ire of the GM and other players for steamrolling over challenges and making the other characters seem redundant.

But that is often a matter of playstyle rather than the raw numbers.  If your tough street samurai protects the other characters, or your face roleplays some good scenes with the others instead of rolling his umpteen social skill dice at them, and if you don't steal spotlight time from the other PCs, then your optimized character might be a lot more tolerable to them.  Similarly, if you tone down your character enough that he can be challenged occasionally, the GM is less likely to resort to cheesy tactics to counter him.

Be aware when an optimized character is not appropriate, though.  Some GMs are newer, and can't handle powerful characters.  Some groups are very stringent about power levels, and won't care about how good your character's backstory is, or how his high dice pools are all logical and self-consistent (JustADude is right - sometimes optimized characters are simply the result of logical choices at character creation).  In that case, you have to decide whether to adjust your playstyle, or find another game.

Optimization techniques work even in lower-powered games, though.  Even with capped dice pools, getting some muscle toner, freeing up points to have a wider array of skills, is still a good idea.  But again, metagame a bit and consider the other players.  If they are playing Mr. Corkscrew, Mr. Bottle Opener, and Mr. Awl, they won't like it if you show up with Mr. Swiss Army Knife.

gargaM0NK

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« Reply #10 on: <07-01-12/1031:20> »
I think you're missing one of the the most important charbuilding tips of all:
If the rest of your table isn't playing with 'optimized' characters and/or your GM isn't building sessions with optimized characters in mind, DO NOT show up with an optimized character. It will ruin the game for everyone, including yourself.
Sometimes this can be mitigated with playstyle, if you keep your eye on the golden rule, you're all playing to have fun.  If you optimize in such a way that you support your team, rather than not leaving anyone else stuff to do, a lot of people don't mind that you have 20 dice in "not their problem".  Ever complained about a teammate with 20 dice in counterspelling and first aid?

Getting the maximum Attribute is disproportionately expensive, which is why you hear the term "soft-maxing" so much around here.  Skills, on the other hand, have a flat cost all the way up to the maximum - the only limit is that you can only have one 6 or two 5's.  For most builds, you should do so.
  Excellent call!  Go with a 6 and a 4 instead of two 5's to save 2 karma later.

Generally, Shadowrun characters tend to be "eggshells with hammers"
  Love it.

Critias

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« Reply #11 on: <07-02-12/1347:32> »
The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
If all characters are optimized, no character is optimized. Optimization is just removed from the equation. Not bound to rules of optimization leads to more variety and therefore realism.
Which is all a very fascinating theory, and stuff, but it's not what this thread is -- very specifically and clearly -- about.  The guy is asking for cut-throat, efficiency-oriented, character creation optimization tips.  You're, instead, giving him fortune cookie philosophical advice about how realistic characters are better.  That seems to be perilously close to threadcrapping, to me, even if I happen to also prefer realistic characters, myself.

ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #12 on: <07-02-12/1403:56> »
Quote
threadcrapping

Most optimized weapon! Poo Cannon: Deals 12D(isgusting)

My best piece of optimization advice: dont forget the little things with gear. Personal Grip is so cheap, actually and metaphorically; same for FFBA and some of the armor mods. Disposable commlinks get hyped here alot, but also get hardliner gloves, a laser sight (in case you ever have to turn off your PAN or Smartlink), a little custom style if youre the intimidating type, the right kind of tires on your ride...It's all cheap and easily overlooked, but also very useful for how cheap it is.

Critias

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« Reply #13 on: <07-02-12/1429:24> »
The best way to optimize any character is to just use the Karma System for character generation...The result will be more realistic characters.
One of these things is not like the other.
If all characters are optimized, no character is optimized. Optimization is just removed from the equation. Not bound to rules of optimization leads to more variety and therefore realism.
Which is all a very fascinating theory, and stuff, but it's not what this thread is -- very specifically and clearly -- about.  The guy is asking for cut-throat, efficiency-oriented, character creation optimization tips.  You're, instead, giving him fortune cookie philosophical advice about how realistic characters are better.  That seems to be perilously close to threadcrapping, to me, even if I happen to also prefer realistic characters, myself.
Mentioning a system that doesn't require optimization (by itself in a single post) is a valid point and worth mentioning in a thread called "optimization theory", even though its the exact opposite. My intention was not to start a "threadcrapping" discussion about it. You need two people for that.
Yeah, and my fault for taking the bait.  I'm out.  OP, sorry for the derail.
« Last Edit: <07-02-12/1747:49> by Critias »

Herr Novak

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« Reply #14 on: <07-03-12/0519:38> »
Own a pistol. Even if you can't use it, but nothing cries out serious business like a gun pointed into the face of someone. And get a lasersight for your smartlinked pistol. So his buddies know exactly where you are aiming at.