[Falconer]

Actually, firewall is a attribute of the device.  It is not a normal program constrained by system.  It's in the same boat as system... they're both independent items which form part of the devices ratings.

p221: matrix attributes... firewall is listed as an ATTRIBUTE (not a program).  It's never listed once as a program (in the program section or elsewhere) it's only ever listed as a software upgrade of the device.
SR4a p222.
"...Upgrading a device is simply a matter of having the proper hardware module (for Response and Signal) or software package (for Firewall and System). Once you have the module or package, simply install it into the device, a matter of a few minutes’ work. A device’s ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings.  Further improvements have no additional effect on performance."

It makes some sense, there are some systems which you need cheap things (low response/system) but still to have a high firewall.  By the same metric there's only so much you can do to help out and patch windoze or OSuX and improve either their system or firewall if that's your starting commercial base.

That said, only the milspec stuff in war comes with ala carte buying of system and firewall seperately.  It's not really said in the mainbook, but since war makes a point of stating it outright, it leads to the belief that system and firewall must be bought together as a single OS package  (then upgrades to either would be limited to +2 of starting).

[All4BigGuns]

I didn't say it was restricted by System. I said it would be restricted by Response like System is because it is not stated in the rulebook description not to be. Otherwise it would destroy any reason to have a Firewall less than 6 in creation and less than 10 afterward.

[Operator]

I didn't say it was restricted by System. I said it would be restricted by Response like System is because it is not stated in the rulebook description not to be. Otherwise it would destroy any reason to have a Firewall less than 6 in creation and less than 10 afterward.

Guns, that's a textbook example of denying the antecedent. Firewall is not explicitly stated to be limited by Response, and the description of the attribute suggests that is separate from standard programs. I will agree that it requires better wording for clarification, but you can't assume that Response will limit Firewall without houseruling.

Your criticism of Firewalls under 6 is valid, however; I do find it strange that a rating 6 medkit only costs 600¥.

[JustADude]

Your criticism of Firewalls under 6 is valid, however; I do find it strange that a rating 6 medkit only costs 600¥.

Keep in mind, that's like saying an EMT-grade medical kit is only $600. Cheap to Runners used to thinking in terms of thousands and tens of thousands, but hella expensive for normal people.

Also, I'm sure Economy of Scale comes into play. They're 100% legal, and incredibly useful to have. All sorts of people would want them, so they'd be cranked out rapidly compared to most of the gear Runners buy.

[All4BigGuns]

It's not assuming it follows the same restriction as programs, but rather imposing the same limit System has which is an appropriate interpretation barring actual errata to the contrary.

[Kontact]

which is an appropriate interpretation

No, it isn't.

Please stop bringing it up outside of rules discussion threads.

[gargaM0NK]

All4BigGuns

The difference, to me, is that System is explicitly limited by Response in RAW:

The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating.

Not only does Firewall not mention response, the contrast to System which gives hard and fast rules Implicitly indicates that it is unconnected.

The best legitimate argument I'm aware of is that in Unwired Firewall is treated as software for some purposes, implying it may be limited by System as other programs.

[Xzylvador]

I don't actually believe All4BigGuns interpretation to be correct, but to play the devil's advocate:
On SR4A 330, Firewall is listed in the "Matrix Programs" table, together with a whole lot of programs which all fall under the Response and/or System limitations.

That said, this discussion should be made in a different thread, this one isn't about Firewall and Response. There's plenty of those floating around, and I don't think any of them ever reached a real definitive conclusion.

[_Pax_]

It's not assuming it follows the same restriction as programs, but rather imposing the same limit System has which is an appropriate interpretation barring actual errata to the contrary.

Firewall is software, but it is not a Program ... it's a Matrix Attribute.

If it were a Program, it would count against the System's limit on concurrently-running programs.  However, it is not, and thus, does not.

If it were a Program, it could have program Options.  Including Optimisation, or Ergonomic.  However it is not, and thus, cannot.

Simply put, it is abundantly clear that Firewall is not "a Program", and thus, neither limited as Programs are, not eligible for the same advantages Programs have access to.

[Lethe]

That said, this discussion should be made in a different thread, this one isn't about Firewall and Response. There's plenty of those floating around, and I don't think any of them ever reached a real definitive conclusion.

Couldn't agree more. The next time you like to discuss something off topic, just post a link to another thread.

[Scarecrow71]

All the money.
Have it.
Gear is modifiers, and modifiers can contribute as much as a 3rd stat when you do them right, so buy as much as you can.
Even if your GM is Monty Hall, optimization is about being as good as you can be now and being even better later.

To go along with this one...
 
Take the Positive Quality of Black-Market Pipeline.  You are then allowed to start the game with restricted/black market items to spend that heavy dose of character-creation creds on.  And if you don't spend it at character creation, you can get them in-game.  May cost you more in-game, but the quality gives you the right to get them.
 
EDIT:  There is nothing in the description that says you CAN start the game with them, but there is nothing in the description that says you CAN'T start the game with them either.  So I believe this would be up for GM interpretation, but you could make the argument.

[All4BigGuns]

All the money.
Have it.
Gear is modifiers, and modifiers can contribute as much as a 3rd stat when you do them right, so buy as much as you can.
Even if your GM is Monty Hall, optimization is about being as good as you can be now and being even better later.

To go along with this one...
 
Take the Positive Quality of Black-Market Pipeline.  You are then allowed to start the game with restricted/black market items to spend that heavy dose of character-creation creds on.  And if you don't spend it at character creation, you can get them in-game.  May cost you more in-game, but the quality gives you the right to get them.
 
EDIT:  There is nothing in the description that says you CAN start the game with them, but there is nothing in the description that says you CAN'T start the game with them either.  So I believe this would be up for GM interpretation, but you could make the argument.

All Black Market Pipeline does is make it easier for one contact--chosen when the quality is taken--to acquire gear of one type. Restricted Gear is the quality that lets you get higher availability items in creation (it's honestly a wasted to 'save it' until later with the latter).  As to 'R' or 'F' gear, those don't matter one bit when determining whether you can start with it in creation by the actual book rules (only the numerical value on availability matters).

Black Market Pipeline
Cost: 10 BP
At character creation, the player chooses one of his contacts
and one type of merchandise (i.e. vehicles, weapons, electronics,
armor, etc.). This contact can always buy or sell that contraband on
the black market at a price that benefits the character.  is guarantees
a 10 percent discount when the character buys the appropriate
merchandise from the Black Market Contact, and confers a +3
dice pool modifier when negotiating to sell/fence appropriate
goods through the Pipeline.

As one can see, it clearly just makes things easier to get in game, and more lucrative to sell.

[Scarecrow71]

Wow, do I feel like a schmeckus.  Thanks for correcting me.

[All4BigGuns]

Wow, do I feel like a schmeckus.  Thanks for correcting me.

No prob.

On looking at the quality again, given how little it actually does, it's another one that is overpriced for its effect...

[Xzylvador]

If the GM allows the discount to work at chargen itself, it's cheaper. For a character spending almost all of his 250k on 'ware (Street Sam) or vehicles (Rigger), the 10% discount itself makes the Quality effectively cost only 5BP instead of 10.

If not allowed to work at chargen, I agree it's usually a bit 'Meh' and probable overpriced, though a lot depends then on the GM and how hard/easy equipment can otherwise be gotten. In a long term campaign it could be worth it.