[UmaroVI]

Well, over time, it can easily pay for itself.After you've spent 500,000 nuyen on that, it has paid for itself. But, remember, you don't have to be buying stuff for your own personal use only! If you take something like "bioware" or "cyberware" that several members of your team will want to spend large amounts of their money on, on an ongoing basis, it will pay for itself very fast.

[JustADude]

If the GM allows the discount to work at chargen itself, it's cheaper. For a character spending almost all of his 250k on 'ware (Street Sam) or vehicles (Rigger), the 10% discount itself makes the Quality effectively cost only 5BP instead of 10.

If not allowed to work at chargen, I agree it's usually a bit 'Meh' and probable overpriced, though a lot depends then on the GM and how hard/easy equipment can otherwise be gotten. In a long term campaign it could be worth it.

Plus there's the fluff aspects.

If I hadn't been insanely strapped for Quality points building my latest character, I'd have grabbed that in a heartbeat, since being a member of First Nations, in good standing, should mean you pretty much don't pay the last bit of "retail" markup on the stuff they bring in.

[JmOz01]

ONe thing that I have noticed is to use in debt as a quality.  It nets you points, it nets you money.  After a few runs nuyens flow alot, so your able to pay him off his payments...

[Glyph]

In debt can be either a great quality, or a crippling one - it really, really depends on the GM.  Keep in mind that, much like the sensitive system quality, some GMs dislike the quality so much that they get a bit passive-agressive about it, and load it up with other intangible drawbacks (and hey, you are in debt to a syndicate, not the local credit union - those guys loan money to people to get their hooks into them, and they won't always play fair, either).

[UmaroVI]

It's also worth noting that a lot of GMs require you to buy off the quality with karma once your debt is paid off.

[Mara]

It's also worth noting that a lot of GMs require you to buy off the quality with karma once your debt is paid off.

No...paying off the monetary portion of the debt is your justification for spending the karma to buy off the quality.

However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..

[_Pax_]

No...paying off the monetary portion of the debt is your justification for spending the karma to buy off the quality.

^^^ Exactly this. ^^^

Meeting your "loan officer", and handing her each more-than-just-the-interest payment in nuyen, is the role-playing necessary to have the option to pay off the BP/Karma part of the quality.

However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..

  Hmmm, no, you're expected to put in actual work on the syndicate's behalf.  In fact, the quality specifies that you have to spend 30 hours/week doing their work.  What irks me is, you don't get PAID for any of that work ... which isn't exactly conducive to loyalty, now, is it?

...

  I want to rework "made man" to be a variable-cost quality.  Basically, start the price at 20BP ... but then bundle in Day Job (sans SIN), with 10 extra hours/week required but the same income - and tweak the loyalty of the Group Contact.  So it would work like this:

• At 5 points, you work 50 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 5, and you earn 5K every month as "your cut of the action";
• At 10 points, you work 30 hours per week, your Group contact has a loyalty of 4, and you earn 2.5K each month (note, aside from income, this is exactly by-the-RAW);
• At 15 points, you work 20 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 3, and you earn 1K each month.

  :)

[Mara]

However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..

  Hmmm, no, you're expected to put in actual work on the syndicate's behalf.  In fact, the quality specifies that you have to spend 30 hours/week doing their work.  What irks me is, you don't get PAID for any of that work ... which isn't exactly conducive to loyalty, now, is it?

Well, you *are* paid for that work, just not in tangibles. However, the thing is: Yes, you are expected to give 30 hours a week.
At the same time, I am sure that your Oyabun, Capo, whatever would also expect a cut of your "Work on the side." Thus, the "In Debt" can be used to mechanically represent the minimum amount your Boss expects from your "side work" before he/she thinks she/he is being cheated and questioning your loyalty...

This is sort of like how I would use Combat Paralysis to represent someone who does not react well to being caught off guard,
and needs to plan everything through. They are not so much "freezing" or "freaking out" as they are analyzing the situation, and
making a plan...(great for someone that has that Adept power that lets them substitute Logic for Agility)

[JustADude]

No...paying off the monetary portion of the debt is your justification for spending the karma to buy off the quality.

^^^ Exactly this. ^^^

Meeting your "loan officer", and handing her each more-than-just-the-interest payment in nuyen, is the role-playing necessary to have the option to pay off the BP/Karma part of the quality.

However, I can also see "in debt" combined with "made man" to represent what your Boss expects for his cut of your
income..

  Hmmm, no, you're expected to put in actual work on the syndicate's behalf.  In fact, the quality specifies that you have to spend 30 hours/week doing their work.  What irks me is, you don't get PAID for any of that work ... which isn't exactly conducive to loyalty, now, is it?

...

  I want to rework "made man" to be a variable-cost quality.  Basically, start the price at 20BP ... but then bundle in Day Job (sans SIN), with 10 extra hours/week required but the same income - and tweak the loyalty of the Group Contact.  So it would work like this:

• At 5 points, you work 50 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 5, and you earn 5K every month as "your cut of the action";
• At 10 points, you work 30 hours per week, your Group contact has a loyalty of 4, and you earn 2.5K each month (note, aside from income, this is exactly by-the-RAW);
• At 15 points, you work 20 hours per week, your Group Contact has a loyalty of 3, and you earn 1K each month.

  :)

Or, more simply, just allow Made Man to substitute for Sinner and the hours from Day Job to count towards the 30hrs/wk.

Essentially, your Day Job is working security at a "connected" business, acting as Wage Mage, etc...

[_Pax_]

That could also work, I suppose.  I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.

[Mara]

That could also work, I suppose.  I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.

When you are a Made Man, your time is not your own. It is a commitment beyond just spending build points to get an advantage.
This is why it is only a 10 point advantage. You are completely loyal to your organization. You have duties that take up
approximately 30 hours a week to represent both your commitment to the organization, and your STATUS. The Don's daughter is in
town? You are the person he trusts to be her chauffer, because you are a Man of Honour. You might be asked to pick the Don's
kids up from daycare...because you are a Man of Honour. You will be asked to do things as if you were part of the VERY large
Family, because you are a Man of Honour. Sometimes, honor requires you to do things without being told, like defending those
in your Family. Being a Made Man is not all just sitting around and talking with your fellow Men and Women of Honour. And not all
of it is going to be criminal. Basicly, imagine yourself in a large, close knit family...that is what that 30 hours a week represents:
that degree of support for your Family, which is as much your family as that of your own blood.

[_Pax_]

That could also work, I suppose.  I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.

When you are a Made Man, your time is not your own. It is a commitment beyond just spending build points to get an advantage.
This is why it is only a 10 point advantage. You are completely loyal to your organization. You have duties that take up
approximately 30 hours a week to represent both your commitment to the organization, and your STATUS. The Don's daughter is in
town? You are the person he trusts to be her chauffer, because you are a Man of Honour. You might be asked to pick the Don's
kids up from daycare...because you are a Man of Honour. You will be asked to do things as if you were part of the VERY large
Family, because you are a Man of Honour. Sometimes, honor requires you to do things without being told, like defending those
in your Family. Being a Made Man is not all just sitting around and talking with your fellow Men and Women of Honour. And not all
of it is going to be criminal. Basicly, imagine yourself in a large, close knit family...that is what that 30 hours a week represents:
that degree of support for your Family, which is as much your family as that of your own blood.

,,, and in return, the Family (etc) takes care of you.  It makes sure you're not sleeping in a cardboard box, it makes sure you can have clean clothes to wear, that you can bathe regularly.

Because the Don's wife?  She's not keen on riding the handlebars of your mostly-rust-and-duct-tape bicycle, leaning against your odorous unwashed body, while her matched set of custom Gucchi luggage bounces along in a dented and banged up kid's wagon towed by a length of ratty twine tied to your belt - no matter HOW trusted you are.  She'll flag down a random cab, first.

[All4BigGuns]

That could also work, I suppose.  I like how my idea makes it so you don't have JUST a flat 30 hour commitment - the loyalty of your syndicate (and your cut of the action, natch) is modified by just how MUCH of your own time you devote to their ends, instead of purely your own.

When you are a Made Man, your time is not your own. It is a commitment beyond just spending build points to get an advantage.
This is why it is only a 10 point advantage. You are completely loyal to your organization. You have duties that take up
approximately 30 hours a week to represent both your commitment to the organization, and your STATUS. The Don's daughter is in
town? You are the person he trusts to be her chauffer, because you are a Man of Honour. You might be asked to pick the Don's
kids up from daycare...because you are a Man of Honour. You will be asked to do things as if you were part of the VERY large
Family, because you are a Man of Honour. Sometimes, honor requires you to do things without being told, like defending those
in your Family. Being a Made Man is not all just sitting around and talking with your fellow Men and Women of Honour. And not all
of it is going to be criminal. Basicly, imagine yourself in a large, close knit family...that is what that 30 hours a week represents:
that degree of support for your Family, which is as much your family as that of your own blood.

,,, and in return, the Family (etc) takes care of you.  It makes sure you're not sleeping in a cardboard box, it makes sure you can have clean clothes to wear, that you can bathe regularly.

Because the Don's wife?  She's not keen on riding the handlebars of your mostly-rust-and-duct-tape bicycle, leaning against your odorous unwashed body, while her matched set of custom Gucchi luggage bounces along in a dented and banged up kid's wagon towed by a length of ratty twine tied to your belt - no matter HOW trusted you are.  She'll flag down a random cab, first.

Gah! Dang you! Now I have an image of Al Pacino on that bike towing that wagon... 

[_Pax_]

... Al Pacino as an ORK, no less. 

[beowulf_of_wa]

as long as he's not Alpa Chino