[Ratboy]

Any ideas for interesting runs for players who want to start with 200 BP so they have lots of room to grow fast? 

[Medicineman]

Any ideas for interesting runs for players who want to start with 200 BP so they have lots of room to grow fast?

Yes ;
DON'T !
If You "bonzai" the Chars
The only thing that'll grow fast will be Frustration of Players and GM alike !! !

Hough!
Medicineman

[Makki]

if you want normal people starting as runners. Try building YOURSELF without a BP limit. Discuss your results with your groups and go from there.
It's very easy and a lot of fun:
Am I a professional athlete like a weight lifter? No, so no Str 6 for me. Can I barely move myself around? No, so no Str 1 either. Must be something in between.
Can I read? Yes, so no Log 1 for me. Puh. Did I successfully revoke Relativity Theory yesterday? No, well, so no Log 7 (exeptional attribute) for me either.
and so on...

for skills you should give everybody a job and a few hobbies and the skills and gear to do them.

at the end add/subtract racial modifiers and tweak, so everybody has about the same amount. It doesn't matter what that number is.

[Critias]

Any ideas for interesting runs for players who want to start with 200 BP so they have lots of room to grow fast?

200 BP is...well...really low.  That's just the points most folks get for just their attributes, for instance.  In fact, using the regular "only half your BP can go into points" thing, you can't even make someone with average statistics with just 200 BP!  Why would 200 BP characters even work as Shadowrunners?  Who would hire them, and what sort of work can they do?  These are folks who couldn't even hang with a hardcore street gang in Seattle, much less make it on their own as independent operators in the shadows.

If you guys want "room to grow fast," why not just increase the karma rewards or something, once gameplay starts?  I think that's gonna work out for you better than gimping your characters this severely.

[Kontact]

You might be able to build a 7-year-old with 200 bp.

That could be an interesting game, maybe. 

[ArkangelWinter]

I like the "build yourself" idea; in fact, it's the only way MW3 is playable sometimes. After everyone is built, then add on magic and 'ware that would make sense for your RL profession, see who has rhe most BP spent, and give the others the difference for contacts, etc.

Just beware players with overly high opinions of their own natural skills.

[Ratboy]

I think that's gonna work out for you better than gimping your characters this severely.

Note that I said that they wanted this.  I tried to argue for 300, or 250 at the very least.  Is there a term that's the opposite of "power-gamer"?

I think this makes it more difficult on me as a GM to find any achievable tasks that are actually interesting, but they want to experience the "small-time beginning runner" feel and claim to be okay with small heists, investigations, etc.  But I don't know how many lost cats and convenience stores ("Stuffer Shack, Part XXVI") they'll want unless I add some twists (cat is possessed?)...but then I have to keep the twists within reason.

But silly me, I said that I'd run a campaign the way they wanted, and this is what they came back with!  I'm hoping that since improvement is rapid at lower levels of abilities and skills, they will rapidly progress, but until then, I'm searching for novel ideas.

[CalibanX9]

Well, low level attributes and skills aren't "fast" to progress. If you have 2 str and want to get to 4, that's 35 karma. In my games that would be 6-7 runs & that's for one attribute.. Realistically it would take 300-400 karma (variable depends on nuyen awards) to get back those lost 200 bp, to get to starting runners that are able to function. Again, 50 runs (and if they are rescuing cats which I would give 2 karma for, if they played in character, a lot more runs). I'd say they need some sort of boost. Maybe let them buy attribute and skills at 1/2 cost to a certain level (4 for skills, 1 less than unaugmented racial max for attributes).

Another avenue would be a karma gen with like 375-400 karma to spend, you'd be less likely to have full on crippled characters, and pretty much no min-max.

If you needed a roll playing hook for this, make them tweens or young adolescents. People grow up and get a lot stronger and more coordinated around that age. Intuition might be the only thing that I wouldn't give a discount on, as that's something young kids have and isn't really trained or grown into (a similar case could be made for logic, but you can train your memory and humping through geometry and diff eq really gives your mind more rigor).

If you are running things this way you could throw your gang of street urchins against other kid gangs, or maybe they could be drug runners for bigger groups because of reduced criminal penalties for kids. Then you could send them all to Juvie.

[All4BigGuns]

I think that's gonna work out for you better than gimping your characters this severely.

Note that I said that they wanted this.  I tried to argue for 300, or 250 at the very least.  Is there a term that's the opposite of "power-gamer"?

I think this makes it more difficult on me as a GM to find any achievable tasks that are actually interesting, but they want to experience the "small-time beginning runner" feel and claim to be okay with small heists, investigations, etc.  But I don't know how many lost cats and convenience stores ("Stuffer Shack, Part XXVI") they'll want unless I add some twists (cat is possessed?)...but then I have to keep the twists within reason.

But silly me, I said that I'd run a campaign the way they wanted, and this is what they came back with!  I'm hoping that since improvement is rapid at lower levels of abilities and skills, they will rapidly progress, but until then, I'm searching for novel ideas.

This is one case where you should just say "No". They may think they want this, but once they see just how useless their characters are, frustration will set in.  Reducing points for character creation is always a bad idea.

[Wakshaani]

Here's one you won't hear me say very often ... that's too low.

(Grk! My heart!)

320 is the level I suggest for "Rookie Runners"... it allows for a full suite of average stats if you choose to go that way, or you can make some sacrifcies here or there to boost your 'main' attribute. It leave senough points for skills, and the gear takes a bit of tweaking (Avail 8 or Rating 4, whichever is less, cap at 40 points of gear instead of 50) but, if you do so, it works out well.

Here's a link to the 320 Challenge:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?299330-(Shadowrun-4th)-Wakshaani-s-320-pt-challenge

Six years old now, and a few of them don't fit the mold (The Troll swordsman in particular is way out of balance), but, there's an example of how the chargen system can be re-adjusted, and well. You just have to be caaaaaareful about it.

[WSN0W]

Speeding up Karma gain with the lower start can help them 'hit their stride' faster than...2 years of RL gaming. I'd agree that 200 BP is a little low.

Is the theme of the game going to be like a 'Master/Padawan' thing where the PC's are young (because 200 BP doesn't even really cover a wage slave or even come close to being able to build any of the Contacts...and if you can't even be a Blogger...eep)

Time Skips can be another good way to justify some heavy karma awards. Start at 8 where all the PC's meet at a boarding school, have a (mis)adventure, skip 5 years to when one of their favored teachers gets extracted by a group of shadow runners and they try and fail to stop that, but in doing so get some clues, get a mission, etc. Another two years pass as they form a plan to leave, go off grid, become SINless, find where the teacher wound up...

Do the players have an in game view of what their 200 BP characters would be? Do they see themselves as skilled adults, just scaled back? Are they all underachieving slightly below average corp salary men that start their heroic journey  when they are pushing 30 rather than the classic 'rite of passage' cusp of adulthood start?

Another way you could run with it is have the team have been competent and then they were selected (kidnapped, recruited, tricked, whatever) to be part of some new magically mojo science project and they come too jacked up beyond belief. Loss of memories, body is a wreck, skills forgotten, etc.

Then throw them into the fire, which will be utterly challenging as it'd be rather 'normal' level of threats, but with their reduced prowess, that's upgraded to 'just shy of being impossible.'

They fuddle through that and as they do, they go to the clinic, get some some pain meds, have a trigger circumstance and "old" skills start coming back to them in a rush. Their body adapts to whatever happened and their muscles repair. A quick trip to the Cyberdoc and he's able to reboot all that 'junk' ware in their body and suddenly they're back in tip top SOTA shape. This would let you dump targeted massive upgrades to them as you point at a character and go 'gain three strength right now.' Depending on the level of group trust there is, you could really give some odd development awards too, like giving the Hacker the +3 natural strength bonus so they can have some rather organic and non-standard builds or something.

And of course whoever did the experiments remains interested in them. Maybe split factions in it, some wanting to see how the PC's recover on their own so they are just 'tagged and watched' from afar. Maybe lending some support behind the scenes (which could be an amazing way to help bail out the underpowered PC's when they get in over their heads without it being some arbitrary hand of god thing where all of the Security guards suddenly got downgraded to 2 Agilities, no SGLs, and level 2 pistol scores.)

And to counter the 'helpful' faction, there is the group that wants them contained and brought back in for examination so there is internal conflict with 'Organization X.'

[UmaroVI]

I think you might do better using (erratad) karmagen with a low karma amount, rather than BP with a low BP amount. Low BP tends to produce idiot-savants, whereas low karma makes it a lot more possible to make OK low-powered characters. I also recommend lowering the starting caps on everything if you don't want to be playing Magicrun, though.

[Ratboy]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

Well, low level attributes and skills aren't "fast" to progress. If you have 2 str and want to get to 4, that's 35 karma. In my games that would be 6-7 runs & that's for one attribute..

True.  I guess I should have written "less slow"...

Again, 50 runs (and if they are rescuing cats which I would give 2 karma for, if they played in character, a lot more runs). I'd say they need some sort of boost. Maybe let them buy attribute and skills at 1/2 cost to a certain level (4 for skills, 1 less than unaugmented racial max for attributes).

I'm against karma inflation in general, but I was thinking of being very generous early on, when they are in that phase where we learn a lot when we first enter something new.  But by putting the boost on the buying side like you suggest, it would do the same thing and I wouldn't have to then cut back karma awards later.  Yours is a better idea, CalibanX9.

I was also thinking of some free awards ("You really can't live in this society at your age without at least some Computer and Data Search skill, so you've been selected as part of a community remedial education program...and be sure to stop back for your Job Training program next week!"  ) as a way of bumping up their characters (which they have already finalized).  Since they've come from different backgrounds, not knowing each other first, I don't know about doing one across-the-board "bad 'ware replacement" but maybe I can use that as one of several techniques to get them up above abysmal.

Probably will need to toss in a time warp if they aren't doing well after a few sessions.  I'd still like to give them a few small runs first, though.

And hey, they might not beat a Blogger or Bartender, but at least they beat Janitor! 

[Medicineman]

Is there a term that's the opposite of "power-gamer"?
Yes its the Bauerngamer (thats German for...Farmers Boy ....Kinda)
or the Taschenlampenfallenlasser (but thats someone who purposely makes a Situation more Dangerous for the whole group just to have his fun )

If Your Players discover the Fail of their Idea why don't You give them 100-150 more BP
so that they can Finish their Chars properly ?

with a Farmers Dance
Medicineman

[Tecumseh]

Cutting the BP often results in many unintended consequences. As others have pointed out, 200 BP means that you can spend 100 BP on attributes, which means that a human will start with attributes of 2. In addition, 200 BP makes the cost of being a non-human twice as high. Being a troll (40BP) would cost 20% of your starting build points, which gives the character that much less of an opportunity to distinguish themselves beyond being tall with horns.

I think that there are lots of interesting ways to create a low-powered campaign without limiting the BP. Even starting with 400 BP, capping things like skills, resources, Magic, and availability (or the maximum amount that can be spent on an item) will result in lower-powered characters that still effective enough to avoid being destroyed by devil rats.

Alternatively, the GM could mandate that a certain number of BPs are spent on less-utilized things like contacts or knowledge skills. For example, if the players were required to spend 40 BP on contacts - probably while limiting the Connection rating to 3 - then it could create a much more realistic stable of contacts. How many of us never take more than two contacts at chargen? I'm guilty. But if you have a separate BP pool for contacts, then you can pick the waitresses, book store owner, truck driver, graduate student, and socialite that we all know in real life but never bother to know in-game. Similarly, having the players spend BP on knowledge skills (above and beyond the free points) provides the players an opportunity to make unique individuals without making the character too powerful in terms of skull-cracking and curb-stomping. It sounds like they're open to the idea of a lot of roleplaying.

If they're completely committed to the idea of starting with less than the standard amount, then I would endorse Umaro's approach of using karmagen with a lower karma amount. It usually results in characters who know how to do more in life than floss with their knives or punch their way out of a petting zoo.