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What kind of character. . .

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zion

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« on: <08-05-12/1111:04> »
Hello,
Nice to meet you all!  I am a veteran of DnD for over 10 years now, and my group of friends decided to try out shadowrun.  I must admit i really like it!  We had a very hard time fumbling through the rules, mainly because we only bought one book to see if we like the game (20th ann version).  So I want to create a character that is either really good at ranged combat for sheer coolness.  Or someone that can do cool stuff in the matrix.

I tried the burnout mage but I don't really think I liked it as much as I would like other potential roles. 

That being said, any suggestions?  Also, any source books that you would suggest getting as well?  I was thinking about unwired cause it's all about the matrix which is neat. 

Sorry for the noobish post but I'm brand new to the game :p  Thanks for any advice!

Scarecrow71

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« Reply #1 on: <08-05-12/1217:06> »
Welcome to the craziness of 2072!  And don't worry about being noobish - we've all been there at one point or another.

To answer your question about source books:  At a minimum, you should pick up Arsenal, Augmentation, Runner's Companion, Street Magic, and Unwired.  From an AD&D terminology, these are the Complete series (as in, Complete Fighters, Complete Wizards, etc.).  Arsenal has a wide array of weapons, Augmentation has new cyber- and bio-ware, Runner's Companion is an expansion of the character creation rules from SR4A, Street Magic has new information on spells, and Unwired is THE book you need if you are considering a hacker, rigger, or technomancer.

You could also pick up the Runner's Toolkit(s), and depending on where your character are, Seattle 2072 and Sixth World Almanac are great reads just for the information on different settings.  Beyond that, I'd suggest, to get familiar with the elements in an SR game and how an adventure might flow, to download some of the season 2 missions from the Catalyst site (click right here, you lucky dog, you).  All of the season 2 missions are there for the free downloading, and for the read alone they are worth spending an hour or so downloading all of them.

Another resource you may want to consider after you are a little more comfortable with creating characters is Chummer, a free character creation application that has been, at least for me, invaluable for creating characters.  I'm not great at character creation just yet, but it helps with the math and showing what is allowed and what is not.  I highly recommend it.

As far as character concepts to try...Either of the ones you posted is a great start.  The long-range weapons expert (or even possibly a sniper) is a good role in a team, and can provide cover and support when the others are trying to get out of some tight spot.  And even if you aren't a true sniper, having access to long- and medium-range automatic weapons is a good thing.  The hacker is an integral part of the game, and no true team can really survive for long without one.  Even a barely-serviceable hacker (such as someone who has a couple of programs and can fumble their way through a simple node) is better than not having one at all.  So much stuff takes place in AR, VR, and the Matrix itself that hackers are essential to success.  And there are several builds out here in this forum for both concepts that you could review and tweak to your own satisfaction.

I hope that helps!
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Glyph

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« Reply #2 on: <08-05-12/1624:00> »
One caution about snipers - they are a niche role.  It's better to be good at ranged combat in general - in fact, you can get away with being slightly worse at sniping, because you don't need as many dice to hit an unaware target.

Dice pools in combat have three components: Attribute, skill, and modifiers.

For Attribute, you use Agility for shooting, as well as numerous other skills.  You want an Agility of 5, because getting it at the base maximum of 6 is not worth the 25 points it costs.  You will hear the term "soft-maxing" a lot here.  What it means is getting your most important Attribute(s) at one point under the maximum, since there is that balloon cost for getting it to the maximum.  After you have bought your "natural" rating, you can increase it by technological augmentations or by magic.  Shadowrun is a game with a strong transhumanist theme, which is reflected in the fact that augmentation and magic can both give you comparatively cheap boosts that take you over the level of ordinary humanity.  My recommendation for a shooter is to get muscle toner at rating: 2 (if you have Runner's Companion, there is a quality called Restricted Gear that lets you go over the normal starting limits for a piece of gear - taking that quality and then getting the same muscle toner at rating: 4 is a common tactic for players).  If you are playing an adept, you can either get the same thing (it will cost you a point of magic loss, but is still usually worth it), or, my favorite combo for "pure" adepts - get improved Attribute/Agility rating: 1 to raise your base Agility to 6, then get Attribute boost/Agility, also at rating: 1 (don't get it higher, because you roll magic + rating to temporarily increase your Agility, then resist Drain equal to the rating - every point past rating: 1 gives you an additional point of Drain damage to resist in exchange for only 1 extra dice; not worth it).

For skills, you can either get the firearms skill group at 4, or get your primary shooting skill at 6 with a specialization.  The former is more cost-effective, eventually, if you plan on using all three skills (automatics, longarms, and pistols), but compared to the skill and specialization, you will be starting out with 4 dice less.  To improve a skill, you can get reflex recorders, either for an individual skill or a skill group.  Adepts can get the improved ability power, which can improve an individual skill by up to 1.5 x its base rating - up to rating: 3 for a rating: 6 skill.

For dice pool modifiers, a relatively cheap modification is a smartlink.  You need to modify your gun (some guns come with a smartlink as standard), and modify either cybernetic eyes, or a visual device such as glasses or goggles.  It gives +2 dice.  I would also recommend getting a skinlink modifier to your smartlink, which means you can't remote-fire your gun, but which makes it unhackable from a distance.

Glyph

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« Reply #3 on: <08-05-12/1756:09> »
Some other things:

Dice pool size is an important aspect of character effectiveness.  Another one is initiative passes.  Adepts can get improved reflexes.  Non-magical characters can get wired reflexes, synaptic boosters, or move-by-wire (move-by-wire is in the Augmentation book).  Wired reflexes and move-by-wire can also be improved by reaction enhancers.  Getting one of these improvements is important for a combat-oriented character.  They increase your Reaction Attribute, making it more likely that you will go first in the round, and giving you more dice to dodge attacks.  They also give you extra initiative passes - this means that you can act more than once in a round.  This is not only good for extra attacks, but defense - you can attack, then use up your next action to defend against enemy counter fire.  Most characters should start out with at least one extra initiative pass, because it is that useful.  A combat-oriented character  should start out with 2 additional initiative passes, though, which you get by taking one of the above options at rating: 2.  You can start out with rating: 3 for three additional initiative passes, but usually that uses up too much of your finite resources for character creation.  It's the same reason I recommended against getting a 6 in Agility.

Other Attributes: You will want decent Body (to resist damage) and Reaction (to dodge damage and roll a high initiative), average (at least) Willpower (to resist stun damage and some spells) and Intuition (for noticing things, and the other Attribute you use for rolling initiative).  Strength, Charisma, and Logic can be lower, but I would try not to start out with any 1's.  Edge can be extremely useful, but can also start out low.  Raise it after you have taken care of you other essentials.  Magic is only relevant if you are an adept, and should typically be taken at 5; adept powers are very useful, and you want a good selection of them.

Other skills: Typically, you should have at least one close-combat skill so you can defend yourself in melee range.  Other vital skills are perception, and either gymnastics or dodge for avoiding damage.  Other useful skills are social, athletics and stealth skills (you might consider skill groups at rating: 1 or 2 to be able to function at least in a basic level in these areas).

Overall, your overall goal should be to make someone who is good within his role, but not completely helpless outside of it.  Now, the advice I have given assumes a campaign where the characters are standard shadowrunners - professional criminals who do dangerous jobs for a living.  If your GM wants characters who are "just starting out", you might want to tone it down a bit - maybe getting the firearms skill group instead of the individual skills, only getting one additional initiative pass, and being a bit more well-rounded, skill-wise.

I have focused on the ranged combat option, because there are other posters who can give much better advice on hacking, which I am not as familiar with.

zion

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« Reply #4 on: <08-05-12/1820:32> »
Thanks to both of you for the advice.  I just got my copy of the core rulebook today so I can actually get a better understanding of the rules.  I have unwired on order and one of the other players ordered arsenal. 

Both roles sound really fun right now.  I would never be a straight up sniper although it could be fun to do once or twice.  We have someone in our group that wants to be a decker, which from what I understand is a hacker.  We also have another fellow who plans to run fully auto/burst machine guns so really either role is already taken but it doesn't hurt to have a little more when you have 6 players + a GM, or at least I would imagine it wont. 

So Glyph, what you're suggesting is an adept but I think I will need to avoid that from what I've read they are tricky to get right and i'm certainly no pro!  I could probably do some cybernetics of some sort but my GM is talking about limiting the amount of money you can start with (IE if you have 50bp left you wont get as much) and/or restricting the rarity of items you can get to as low as 6?  I think I'm talking him out of it, cause we're all new and it's gonna be hard enough without more disadvantages lol.

 I am also looking into rigger/technomancer as i have a facination with the matrix and technology as an electronics engineering tech IRL, but we'll see how well I can grasp the rules and the unwired book as I've read it can be a bit complicated. 

As a side note: My friend would like to know if there are any two handed hammers?  He'd love to sport one as a troll.  Otherwise we can just use a katana's stats or some other 2h wep. 

Thanks for all the help!



Cass100199

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« Reply #5 on: <08-05-12/1921:40> »
If you want to be a long range specialist, get the Automatics skill, use battle rifles, and slap a scope on top. You can still punch out to sporting rifle ranges and you have a utility skill for BR, AR, SMG's and machine pistols.

Essentially, as a sniper, you're using an EBR or SR25 instead of a "sniper rifle".
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Henzington

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« Reply #6 on: <08-05-12/2012:19> »
Longarms also includes shotguns so you can do quite well in long range and closer quarters combat with just long arms.  Sniper Rifles have an advantage in that there are several designed specifical to be carried in a normal briefcase.
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Glyph

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« Reply #7 on: <08-06-12/0155:26> »
Adepts are tricky, and I wasn't specifically recommending one, just comparing the ways the two of them get the same things.  Augmented characters actually start out a bit overall tougher most of the time.

On the other hand, if the GM is limiting you that drastically, there is no point to playing a street samurai or hacker - or a rigger.  Because availability of 6 and less money won't even get some of the better armor or guns.  You might point out to him that limiting resources like that will only encourage everyone to play mages, adepts, and technomancers.

A decent adept with 5 power points, using the basic book only, could be improved Attribute/Agility rating: 1 to raise your base Agility to 6, then Attribute boost/Agility, also at rating: 1; improved ability: 3 in your primary ranged skill (assuming you get that skill at rating: 6), and improved reflexes: 2.  But I would get things straight with your GM first.  It won't be fun playing a decent character if your GM is upset because he wanted to start people out less powerful, and the other players are upset that their characters are limited more than yours is.

Mason

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« Reply #8 on: <08-06-12/1202:21> »
...SR25...

Nooooo! Curse you, Rigger Black Book!

Scarecrow71

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« Reply #9 on: <08-06-12/1238:46> »
I can understand a GM limiting the amount of starting cash players can spend, because 250,000 Y can really get you a lot of stuff.  But to limit the starting availability of gear to 6?  That is not good.
 
As an example, let's take a look at Assault Rifles (core rules only, not any supplemental books).  By limiting the availability to 6, you have 1 choice:  AK-97.  Same thing with Sporting Rifles - you got 1 choice, and that's the Ruger 100.  Want to play a sniper?  Both sniper rifles are above 6.  Shotguns?  Only 1 choice left, and that's the Remington.  All machineguns - light, medium, heavy - assault cannons, and grenade launchers are off-limits.
 
That's just the firearms themselves.  Say goodbye to Gyro Stabilization, Silencers, Smart Firing Platforms, and Sound Suppressors as well.  You can also kiss Explosive Rounds, Frag Grenades, all explosives, Chameleon Suits, Full Body Armor, and a whole host of other gear goodbye as well.  And this is just stuff in the core rules, and the stuff that most Street Sams use.  I haven't even gotten to hacker gear and programs, or foci, or vehicles/drones.
 
All in all, you should really talk to your GM about limiting the starting availability and why he's doing so.
I could wile away the hours conversing with the flowers
Consulting with the rain
And my head I'd be scratching while my thoughts were busy hatching
If I only had a brain...

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash, Army of Darkness

Glyph

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« Reply #10 on: <08-06-12/1314:07> »
Even limiting starting money can be problematic - because it only affects non-awakened, non-technomancer characters.  I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea if you want to have starting/wannabe runners or a lower-powered campaign, but if you do this, you also need to put similar limits on adepts, mages, and technomancers.  And everything else being equal, metahumans become a lot more attractive, because they are the only way to get higher starting Attributes now, and with less other things to spend resources on, they have less of an opportunity cost.  That's why house rules can be tricky - changing one thing throws off a lot of other things.

zion

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« Reply #11 on: <08-06-12/1323:34> »
Well he doesn't particularly care about balance of power because he hates min-maxing.  However, I talked to him about it and he said he hasn't decided yet, he may do as little as say you can't get explosives.  I am not sure about his motives, originally i thought it was to make character creation simpler but I'm not really sure now.  I know in our trial run someone bought a grenade launcher and kept trying to use it in bad situations (like at a gas station?)  but I am not really sure.  I had a great time in our first playthrough without the limitations personally but I'm not the GM. . .

Additionally if I have to i could burn BP on restricted gear :p

Cass100199

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« Reply #12 on: <08-06-12/1816:05> »
...SR25...

Nooooo! Curse you, Rigger Black Book!

I'm talking about the AR10 style rifle. What are you talking about?
You can't tell me what toys I can play with.