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Starting a new character in a few days, could use some general advice and tips

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rungok

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« on: <08-10-12/1823:36> »
I'm going to be playing a Unarmed combat human adept, but we could only use material from the core book at character creation.
I built her as best as I could, and with the limitations I had at hand (Only core book, 400 bp). Without using any 'ware.
I spent a fair bit of points on my combat ability and my driving (Was a Halloweener for years, left after narrowly surviving the last massacre). So I'm swinging around 14 dice on average in hand to hand combat with 3 total initiative passes. I think I'll be okay in other things, but not anywhere close to what she can do with her hands. (has agility 6 and pistols 4).

I did do some basic stuff in gear but nothing special (Two Comms, one for fake SIN and one for running, etc.) and a good quality bike with backup car. guns and varied ammo, concealed holsters, everything skinlinked, etc).

What I could use some help with is some tips and pointers when actually doing a run. I mean I understand "You need to hit the thing", but I'm talking about tips like 'Have the mage check for astral security' or stuff about doing runs that people tend to forget.

(To that end I'm not even sure I'm in the right forum. am I?)

Critias

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« Reply #1 on: <08-10-12/1848:46> »
(To that end I'm not even sure I'm in the right forum. am I?)
Nope.  Don't worry, I shot the mods a note to move it.

rungok

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« Reply #2 on: <08-10-12/1857:22> »
Much thanks!

Kontact

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« Reply #3 on: <08-10-12/2316:49> »
There's lots of tips for adepts in these here threads.

First and foremost, I'd suggest a point of essence allotted for ware.  Agility is really key for every combatant and sneaker.  Enough so that getting Muscle Toner 2 is well worth losing a PP just by itself.  Combine that with the other nice things you can get, even without going outside the base book, and you'll definitely see benefits from augmentation.

Might suggest an internal air tank on the cyber side, to make gas attacks less of a problem, and some synthcardium on the bio side to boost your athletics skill. 

Speaking of athletics, since you're already going to have unarmed combat covered to help you defend against melee attacks, I recommend skipping dodge entirely and focusing on Gymnastics for your ranged dodge.  With a wad of synthcardium and Improved Ability [Gymnastics] (non-combat, so it's only .25 PP per level,) you'll be flipping over all sorts of bullets as you close distance for your kills.

rungok

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« Reply #4 on: <08-10-12/2321:05> »
I didn't know you could use gymnastics instead of dodge.

Glyph

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« Reply #5 on: <08-10-12/2335:54> »
Gymnastics is about the equivalent of dodge for ranged full defense.  It is not good for melee - it cannot be used for normal melee defense like dodge, and is only added as a component to the dice pool for melee full defense.  This is why gymnastics is typically only recommended for builds that also have a melee skill.  They use gymnastics for ranged defense, and block with their melee skill.

Kontact

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« Reply #6 on: <08-10-12/2351:17> »
The relevant text is on p160 under Full Defense.

Tsuzua

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« Reply #7 on: <08-11-12/0039:48> »
I noticed that you first posted in the Mission board.  Is this character for a Missions game?  If so, tell me and I can give you general missions advice.

The big thing about Gymnastics is that it doesn't passively increase your melee defense.  As Kontact said though, you have Unarmed for that.  I'm actually not a big fan of Full Defense because you don't have time to waste on dodging in a firefight.  If you're running up to a guy dodging, you aren't helping the team to actually win and the target of your eventual punching is just going to shoot someone else with his second shot.

You're not going to be much of a combat monster pure damagewise.  While you're punching for around 8-10P a pass, your street samurai friend is shooting people in the face with an Ex-Ex loaded SMG for 8P/8P a pass with just Burst Fire.  Your big advantage is that you look like a normal dude to 99% of metahumanity and to all technological sensors.  That lets you get away with stuff the gun carrying street samurai can't.   

That said like Kontact, I suggest getting ware.  If you post your character sheet, I can give more specific suggestions especially for out of combat stuff

Kontact

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« Reply #8 on: <08-11-12/0128:02> »
Well, a charging guy makes a pretty attractive target for most people.  If the GM's not metagaming, Punchy McFlips-a-lot should draw a lot of attention away from other combatants.  Meanwhile built right, the running gym-dodger can drop ~17 dice on full defense without even getting spendy.  Basically fills the role of a dodge-tank.

Quick breakdown of what I mean.

4 Rea +2 from Improved Reflexes II = 6 stat dice
Gym/athletics of 4 + 2 specialization (gymnastic dodge) +3 synthcardium R3 = 9 skill dice
Running provides +2 situational dice

So, that's 17 on gym dodge without breaking a sweat. 
Could even Troll it up at that level real easy.  That way, wide bursts to drop your dodge pool will result in DVs too low to get past your soak.
Trolls also clear the distance much faster and get reach bonuses.  Honestly, it's a pretty solid choice for a punchwizard.

As to full dodge being a waste, it kinda is when the other option is dropping a couple guys, but it's a good delaying tactic when you've got more passes than they do.  Besides, you gotta run at a dude sometimes.
« Last Edit: <08-11-12/0145:05> by Kontact »

Tsuzua

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« Reply #9 on: <08-11-12/1119:35> »
Well, a charging guy makes a pretty attractive target for most people.  If the GM's not metagaming, Punchy McFlips-a-lot should draw a lot of attention away from other combatants.  Meanwhile built right, the running gym-dodger can drop ~17 dice on full defense without even getting spendy.  Basically fills the role of a dodge-tank.

Quick breakdown of what I mean.

4 Rea +2 from Improved Reflexes II = 6 stat dice
Gym/athletics of 4 + 2 specialization (gymnastic dodge) +3 synthcardium R3 = 9 skill dice
Running provides +2 situational dice

So, that's 17 on gym dodge without breaking a sweat. 
Could even Troll it up at that level real easy.  That way, wide bursts to drop your dodge pool will result in DVs too low to get past your soak.
Trolls also clear the distance much faster and get reach bonuses.  Honestly, it's a pretty solid choice for a punchwizard.

As to full dodge being a waste, it kinda is when the other option is dropping a couple guys, but it's a good delaying tactic when you've got more passes than they do.  Besides, you gotta run at a dude sometimes.
Yes, if the GM plays along with your plan, then it's a good idea.  As pretty much any plan would.

The best case is you walk up to a guy and punch him and wound him.  Then everyone else within 1 meter of you is in melee and takes a -3 penalty to shoot people and -3 to defend against ranged attacks.  If they try to move out of the melee, you can spend your free action to intercept one of them (hopefully the injured one so you can take him out).  If you charged/ran however, then you've used your free action for that pass and can't intercept.  Either way, it's fairly reasonable for people to want to move out of a melee when they use guns.  Then they move out and shoot freely since they just moved the way out of the manic.  If the other guys aren't within 1 meter, they can just walk away and shoot whoever they want.  They might shoot at you until they see you dodging like a character from the Matrix.  Maybe one guy does it and that CCs him for 1 pass.  You could have justed used a Fubuki and shot and taken him out.  If you're lucky, you might have taken out one and wounded another.  Then on your next pass, you'll take out another instead of doing cartwheels.

Melee combat isn't about the damage.  It's about putting debuffs on tightly packed groups of people.  However you've also just made it much harder for the team's mage to just Stunball the encounter away since now there's a friendly in the mix.  You may or may not have made things harder on the Street Samurai who was going to hit multiple targets with his full burst since you're taking up space that might have been a second or third guy.

rungok

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« Reply #10 on: <08-11-12/1215:48> »
Melee combat isn't about the damage.  It's about putting debuffs on tightly packed groups of people.  However you've also just made it much harder for the team's mage to just Stunball the encounter away since now there's a friendly in the mix.  You may or may not have made things harder on the Street Samurai who was going to hit multiple targets with his full burst since you're taking up space that might have been a second or third guy.

So are you saying that having a melee character is unfavorable?

Additionally, if I do want to, how do I use intercept? [Edit] I found the part in the book that explains it. How many free actions can I perform? If there really isn't a limit based on it being a reaction to things, I should be able to intercept each person that tries to leave melee, right?

(My gm has my character sheet atm, so I don't have the precise stats, but here's what I remember):
Str 5
Agil 6 (7)
Bod 3
Rea 4 (6)
Cha 2
Int 4
Log 2
Wil 3
Edge 4
Magic 6
Ess 6
Positive Qualities:
Aptitude (Unarmed)
Skills:
Unarmed 7 (Specialty: Brawling)
Automobiles 5 (Specialty: Motorcycles)
Athletics group 3
Pistols 4 (Specialty: Semi-Automatics)
Dodge 3
Uh..... Infiltration group 2
Perception 3

Got a total of 24 points worth of contacts.
Urban explorer armor, two pistols, concealed holster for main, quick release forearm holster for holdout. Ex-ex ammo/stick n shock ammo, regular bullets.
Suzuki Mirage bike,

Adept Powers:
Enhanced Reflexes 2
Ability boost 1 (strength)
Mystic armor 2
Killing hands
Critical strike 4
Improved Attribute (Agility) 1
... I think I had something else, but I can't remember.

Sorry it's incomplete.
« Last Edit: <08-11-12/1533:50> by rungok »

Tsuzua

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« Reply #11 on: <08-13-12/1421:01> »
So are you saying that having a melee character is unfavorable?

Additionally, if I do want to, how do I use intercept? [Edit] I found the part in the book that explains it. How many free actions can I perform? If there really isn't a limit based on it being a reaction to things, I should be able to intercept each person that tries to leave melee, right?
You have 1 free action per pass (SR4A 146) that you can use during or after your initiative.  So you can only stop one from running away.

As for melee in general, Shadowrun doesn't like it.  For example, right now you have 7P fists which is a respectable amount of damage.  The street samurai goes down to the store with 2000Y and buy a AK-97, Gas Vents 3, a shock pad, and 2 clips of Ex-Ex ammo.  He now does 7P -2AP if he fires once.  He can also burst fire instead and do effectively 9P -2AP damage.  And then he can immediately take another shot.  He'll take a -1 to a roll that you can't even make.  He also can do it across a room. 

That said, that doesn't mean unarmed combat is useless.  You can still knock out security guards with your punches.  You have enough of a roll to hit most people.  You're just someone who can contribute to a fight, not someone who's main role is to be a combat monster.  That means you should bring something else to the table as well to earn your paycheck.

For example , the street samurai in the above example has got to carry a hunk of metal that says "I am going to murder you with bullets" to everyone and everything that can notice it.  In many cases, that's fine.  Even if he conceal carrying a pistol* that puts your fists to shame, he's still gotta worry about cyberware scanners and patdowns.

You however can just walk around just fine and most people and all devices will see you as a normal dude.  Those who can notice something's up will just know "he's awakened" and not "kung fu badass."

You have to play to your strengths.  You can try to cover your weaknesses by spending points and nuyen on learning on how to stall for time with cartwheels while the fight is won or lost by your friends.  You aren't going to be better in combat than if you decided to just use a gun.  Your strengths are that you look like a normal dude and you're quiet.

This means you want to be sneaky.  The two best ways for you is to be able to make it to a back door without getting spotted and ninja around the place.  You don't have to worry about the gun detector because you aren't carrying any guns.  The other way is to be able to lie to get into places.   You can try to mix the two roles as well.  Since ninja sneaking and lying work well together on a mission since if you get caught you can use lying as a recuse, that's a good thing to try.

But we need to make room.  First off, you're actually breaking the character creation limit of 200 BP spent on attributes (this doesn't count special attributes).  You should lower your agility to 5.  That saves 25BP.  We'll also lower your magic to 5.  That saves 25 BP.  Ditching the Aptitude costs you a die, but saves you 14 points.  You don't need dodge.  If someone is shooting at you, you can use Gymnastics.  If someone is punching you, you can use Unarmed.  Thus you can drop it and save 12 BP. I'll also raid your contacts for 14 BP.  10 points should get you two contacts which is going to be enough.  That'll give you 90 points to play with. 

The first 20 goes towards being an ork.  Orks are very BP efficient and that's what you need.  You can also be an elf if you want.  This will give you a 7 Str, 6 Body, and 3 Edge.  I'll drop the Body down to 4 and move the 20 points into Charisma for charisma 4.  I'll also lower logic to 1 and increase Intuition to 5. 

You'll also want to turn 12 BP into 60000Y and buy Muscle Toner 2 and Tailored Pheromones 3.  Since both of these can only come up in medical tests, you don't lose the ability to sneak around.  This will lower your Magic down to 4.  You however have a 7 agility still and +3 to all charisma/social tests.  You can get other bioware instead but I'm working on making you a side face build.  If you rather not face, you can get reflex recorders, synthacardium, or something else.  Plastic Bone Lacing is +1DV to your punches, but cyberware scanners will catch your illegal plastic bones so it's a trade off.

Now you have 58 BP for skills.  Buy up the stealth group to 4.  Then buy the Influence group at 4.  That leaves you at -2 points.  I'll leave you to figure out where that comes from.  My guess you'll have to lower your perception as much as that hurts me.  If you can find a way to save 10,000Y that'll work too. 

You might want to pick up more negative qualities.  That way you might be able to buy Intimidation or Perception to 4.  Ideally you'll raise athletics 4, but you can reduce it to 1 as well.

Now for your magical powers.  You have 4PP to use (5 Magic - 1 Magic from Ware).  I truly wish you could use Way of the Adept because it'll help you a lot.  However, you can go Increase Reflexes 2, Killing Hands, and Critical Strike 4.  Another option is to go with Increase Reflexes 1, Killing Hands, Critical Strike 4, and Kinesics 2.  You're slower in combat, but you'll have +2 dice to social tests.  Either way, once play begins, save you karma for Magic 5 for 25 karma.  Then buy up your Increase Reflexes or Kinesics.  You could also drop Killing Hands and just do S.  You'll be much weaker against spirits though.  Spirits will often as good or superior kung fu to you though. It does mean you'll be able to punch force 5-7 spirits to death which you can't if you lack Killing Hands.

The end result of all of this is that you roll 11 dice on sneaking around, 9 dice on disguise checks (you can get disguise related equipment), 13 punching people, and 11 facing.  You also register as "normal dude" though any non-magical perception you encounter.   Basically the idea is that you disguise yourself, blend in, sneak around, try to lie out of your trouble, and punch dudes in the face for 8P damage (hopefully from surprise).  Sadly a locked door will defeat you unless you can palm a keycard off someone.  But defeating locked doors will be really expensive for you.  If you want I can try to turn you into a more logic skill oriented character that can deal with maglocks and will be a decent doctor, but you'll lose the ability to face.

I have some more suggestions like other melee tricks like subduing and replacing pistols with another firearm related skill, but this post is already too long.
 
*- For example, a Fubuki does 8S(e) -1/2AP with burst fire.  It can also do this twice a pass at no penalty.

rungok

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« Reply #12 on: <08-13-12/1435:33> »
This is some really helpful stuff. I'm going to have to print it out and go over my sheet with this!
I think that I'll give it a look, but I'm unsure about race. I think we had a discussion before about Orks being a better choice than humans in general.
I wish I could use The way of the adept too... *sigh*

I'm okay with the sneaky part, I'm on the fence about being face-ey as well. Though it would be good to be able to lie my way out of things.

Tsuzua

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« Reply #13 on: <08-14-12/1447:21> »
If you'll rather not be facey, you can also go the logic skill route.  That'll let you pass through maglocks* and make your team's mage and technomancer** love you since you can first aid a lot of their drain/fade.  The logic skill route works best if you get the "Expanded Core Rulebooks" like Arsenal and Augmentation.

Basically you get your logic up like your charisma and vice versa.  Then you grab Hardware 4 and First Aid 4 instead of Influence.  That'll cost you 32 BP in skills so you have 6 BP left over.

You then grab Muscle Toner 2 and Cerebral Boosters 2.  This gives you .2 essence left over.  If you'll eventually get Augmentation, I suggest grabbing PuSHeD for a bonus to all logic-linked skills.  You may or may not want to eventually get a cyberhand/foot with a nanohive for neocortical nanites.  Otherwise you can save it for later or something like a reflex recorder.  This will give you 10 dice hardware and 16 dice for first aid.  Do note that RAW, you've just capped the amount of boxes you've healed with first aid to 4 instead of 6 if you just used the medkit's rating as a skill instead.  This is stupid and your GM should houserule it (the rule is changed in Augmentation as well). 

If you're going to get Arsenal, I'll think about getting the Mechanics skill group as well so you can do vehicle mods.  Armorer lets you do weapon mods which are vital for really good guns.  You can default on Armorer so it may or may not be worth it. 

Now for your weapon choice.  As a punch master, you already have concealable and quiet down cold.  So what you need is to cover long ranges and high damage.  There's three ways to do this.  One is to go Automatics and use an assault rifle.  The other is Heavy Weapons and use explosives or HMGs (eventually).  Core only though, I'll actually entertain getting Longarms.  The Ranger Arms SM-4 can break down which you can't do with any other core weapon and recoil is harder to manage without Arsenal.  Non-Core though, you'll want to use a recoil free or light compensated assault/battle rifle or a gauss rifle instead. 

*- You definitely can do this to password and card based maglocks.  I'm not sure if you can do this to biometric locks RAW and/or RAI.  I think you ought to, but that's a discussion elsewhere.

**- I'm not sure if I'll suggest playing a technomancer for a new group and core only though.