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Initiative

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Dracain

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« on: <09-14-12/2311:50> »
What would you say is the lowest recommended initiative score for a combat focused character (street sam, adept, combat mage)?  This is after all the buffs they get from magic/augs. 

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #1 on: <09-14-12/2331:12> »
Four with 1 pass. Basically as long as it isn't at the absolute minimum (leaving both Reaction and Intuition at 1) and it fits the character, it's all good :)
« Last Edit: <09-14-12/2335:04> by All4BigGuns »
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Pyromaster13

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« Reply #2 on: <09-14-12/2342:13> »
Lowest recommended initiative I'd let myself have on a combat based character is 11.

Critias

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« Reply #3 on: <09-15-12/0017:25> »
It's really gonna vary from game to game (like a lot of other suggestions/earmarks/recommendations).  For a solid rough estimate, though, you can just take a look at the archetypes (who are, compared to some dedicated combat guys built with non-core options, kind of anemic).  When in doubt, a comparison with the core Street Samurai archetype isn't a terrible starting point for any combat-oriented character, in my opinion.

TheNarrator

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« Reply #4 on: <09-15-12/0220:41> »
This is going to vary from group to group, apparently, but for a combat character I've found that 3 Initiative Passes is the norm in every game I've played in, and usually a total initiative score of around 10 (4 in Reaction and Intuition with +2 from the Initiative enhancer, be it Wired Reflexes, adept powers or a spell.)

Really, it depends on your group. If possible, you don't want to have less IPs than the other PCs, because then you spend a lot of time waiting around and doing nothing while everybody else gets to participate.

Four IPs is pretty much never seen in a starting character, as it requires the expenditure of so many resources (Essence, Power Points, etc.) that you'll have almost nothing else. Two IPs might be fine, but three is just a little bit more cost for such a big advantage... so it tends to end up at three. Plus, that's how many IPs a hot-sim VR rigger/hacker/technomancer will have, which makes me suspect that the game designers felt the same way. (See above re: all the PCs going at the same speed so nobody is stuck waiting.)

Glyph

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« Reply #5 on: <09-15-12/0814:23> »
Personal recommendations:

For a sammie, 12, because there's no reason for your Reaction to not be at the augmented maximum, and your Intuition should be at least average.  For an adept, 10, because you will have either a synaptic booster: 2 or improved reflexes: 2, but no reaction enhancers.  For a combat mage, 10+, because Reaction and Intuition (assuming an intuition-based tradition) should be soft-maxed, then an increase reflexes spell should be adding to that.

Because if combat is your primary focus, you should be good at it.  Don't worry about being "overpowered" - there will still be plenty out there that can hurt your character.

Noble Drake

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« Reply #6 on: <09-15-12/0844:26> »
I have to post a contrast to Glyph.

If you want to be tweaked out for combat to the point that either a) you seem near untouchably badass or b) the GM throws seriously dangerous and heavily combat tweaked bad dudes into the game frequently to keep you feeling challenged... and with the outcome being solely up to your GM (meaning he will decide whether he wants to try and challenge you or let your investment shine), I'd advise erring on the side of caution.

Aim for "fast enough", not "the fastest" and see where the GM is going to take things - reaction 3 (4) with intuition 3, for a total augmented initiative of 7 with 2 passes - and enough points for attributes and cash to still do whatever you would like.

Of course, it is worth noting that I use 2nd Edition's initiative rules with SR4A attributes (your initiative passes are the number of d6 you roll and total, your initiative score is then added to that total, if you can subtract 10 and still have a number greater than 0 you act on that initiative as well - but a max of four times per initiative roll) - it compresses the difference between the initiative of street level thugs without the funds to afford wired reflexes and the vatjobs with top of the line move-by-wire systems... which overall means that I can both use a vatjob bad-guy without the runner team being guaranteed to be outmatched just on account of available actions, and I can use low-augment baddies and still challenge vatjob PCs without having to ramp up the numbers into the double digits.

Medicineman

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« Reply #7 on: <09-15-12/0932:17> »
Joe "Potbelly" Nightwatchmann might have an Ini of 6-8 with 1 IniPass
You'd want to beat that
(and You'd rather raise the Passes than the Ini itself))

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Tsuzua

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« Reply #8 on: <09-15-12/1038:32> »
You generally want as high of an initiative as you can reasonably afford.  Shadowrun's combat is very offense heavy and a good rule of thumb is that someone can take out someone of equal optimization* on their pass.  Therefore you want to go first to be the guy to go first.  However, there is no set value to be the guy who go first since it depends on who you're facing. 

If your GM makes his own NPCs, then I can't help you too much with the expected value.  In my experience with the pre-made NPCs, the "tough" ones like Red Samurai and Tir Ghosts have between 10-13 Initiative.  Generally they're lower. 

As a PC, the highest value you can easily** get is likely 14.  That's Reaction 5, augmented to 9 via cyberware, and Intuition 5.  I recommend at least 10 since that's Reaction 5, augmented to 7, and Intuition 3 which is extremely easy to reach as a cybered character. 

Theoretically with magic, you can get a much higher initiative.  You can increase Intuition as well as Reflexes to your augmented max via Increase Intuition/Reaction.  Secondly, Increase Reflexes boosts your Initiative directly so you can cap out your attributes and then get a bit more.  The end result is a value of 21 (Reaction 9 + Intuition 9 + Increase Reflexes 3).  However you'll rarely see this in play since it requires 3 decent force spells sustained.  But it's possible especially at higher optimization levels.  In practice, most mages have only have 0-2 spells sustained and have less points maxing out their reaction and/or Intuition.  Thus they either have lower Initiative than mundane combat characters or about the same. 

One thing to keep in mind as well is that you can spend Edge to go first.  Thus one tactic is to be lucky and beat everyone else who didn't spend Edge.  However, you will have to compete with other edge spenders so you want at least a decent Initiative. 

IPs are a different matter.  The value of IPs varies a lot from fight to fight, but two major variables are your side's offensive power and the relative size of the two sides in the fight.  The more powerful your side's offensive power, the less valuable IPs are.  This is because as offensive power increases is you'll more likely just take out the other side before later IPs come up.  Instant AoEs such as airburst explosives and spells will especially cut down on the value of IPs in this manner.  If you're badass enough to take out 2 enemies per IP, then IPs matter less.

Relative size matters since it puts a bound on fights where the number of IPs matter.  Generally the more equal in size the fight is, the more IPs matter.  For example, if you outnumber the enemy 2 to 1, you'll just wipe them out on the first pass.  If you're outnumbered 1 to 2, you'll either be wiped out by mass fire or their attacks are weak enough that it doesn't matter how many shots they take.

In my experience, the IP count you need for any given fight is generally 2.  However, every so often I'll see a need for a third IP.  Since the cost of getting the third pass is low***, I recommend grabbing Wired Reflexes 2 for most characters.  If you have a good reason like being a full replacement character or otherwise super short on cash and/or essence, you'll do fine with Wired Reflexes 1.  Mages can get a force 3 sustaining focus for Force 3 Increase Reflexes for similar effect though at different drawbacks.

*- This generally becomes less true on the very low end (3-4 dice with Streetline Specials low end) and against high Edge highly armored characters. 

**- Easily being a human/elf/ork, not hardcapping either attribute, and not messing around with SURGE, Exceptional Attribute, or Genetic Optimization

***- Wired Reflexes 2 costs .7 essence and 11,000Y more nuyen than Wired Reflexes 1 and Reaction Enhancers 1. 

Strungest

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« Reply #9 on: <09-15-12/1217:17> »
In my (very limited, mostly theoretical, probably wrong) experience, it heavily depends on the other players and GM. If combat is something that is part of the run, instead of a consequence for messing up, than 2-3 passes is advised. +1 pass DOUBLES your actions per turn, and +2 is only slightly more expensive once you have the +1. +3 is a large opportunity cost, and may be not worth it. Due to most characters being able to murder their clone in 1 or 2 passes, going first and going often is a big deal. I would actually recommend that combat focused characters focus on going first over things like dice pools and damage. Going first with a +15 will keep you alive more often than going second or third with a +18

Mad Hamish

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« Reply #10 on: <09-17-12/2231:33> »
As a general rule I'd say you want 3 initiative passes and probably an initiative of more than 10.

That's for a "standard" 400 BP/750 karma gen character and without the campaign being very low or very high powered.

More initiative would be o.k. but it's a matter of what else you'd have to give up to get it.

Dracain

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« Reply #11 on: <09-17-12/2349:16> »
I got 9 on this character I'm working on, with 3 IPs, would you say that is enough, or should I make sure to get that last dice?

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #12 on: <09-17-12/2354:50> »
My joke earlier aside, I tend to end with anywhere from 8 to 10 with 2 passes, and I generally do fine.
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Medicineman

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« Reply #13 on: <09-18-12/0201:35> »
I got 9 on this character I'm working on, with 3 IPs, would you say that is enough, or should I make sure to get that last dice?
Thats Ok .Especially the 3 IPs  are Good !

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grumble

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« Reply #14 on: <09-18-12/0428:40> »
[post 104 Yay!]

I'll have to agree with the general consensus.
Characters who dont have several initiative passes will find combat  difficult.
augmentation or magic its your choice.