[Chemy]

Hey all. I'm a new GM and I could use some advice from those who've been doing it a while. We've been playing for a while now and I have to admit that magic isn't my strongest point. I've got a player so loaded with quickened spells that he's becoming overpowered. I realize that the best prevention would have been to not let it happen in the first place but now it has and I'm not sure what the best way is to handle it.

I assume that quickened spells can be dispelled justlike normal spells? If so, I should mention that my player also uses Aura Masking. I think he may even have Extended Masking. Can somebody help me out with the rolls? I guess shooting them down one by one would be sufficient enough to stop him from taking that approach.

Thanks in advance!

Chemy

[All4BigGuns]

Do nothing. Do you realize how much karma it takes to have that many quickened spells? You'd basically be giving the finger and stripping away character advancement.

[Makki]

Wards. They're everywhere and they stop spells.

[Kizmet]

p.185 SR4A
Counterspelling also allows a magician to dispel a sustained or quickened spell, canceling its effect. The character must be on the same plane, must be able to perceive the spell she is targeting, and must use a Complex Action. The dispelling magician makes a Counterspelling + Magic Opposed Test against the spell’s Force + caster’s Magic (+ Karma spent in the case of quickened spells). Each net hit scored on this test reduces the hits from the original test to cast to spell. If a spell’s hits are reduced, any effects the spell applies are also reduced accordingly. If the spell’s hits are reduced to 0, the spell immediately ends. After each dispelling attempt, the magician must resist Drain as if she cast the spell she was targeting, whether the dispelling succeeded or not. If the spell’s Force exceeds her Magic, Drain damage is Physical. The caster of a sustained or quickened spell that is targeted by dispelling is automatically aware of the attempt.

[Orvich]

IMO, quickening spells is a bad idea for the player. A big nasty enemy mage can come through and erase all of your karma investment, and it's not at all cheap to quicken spells, even for what you get.

That's not to mention that you can't ever turn off the spells without sacrificing the karma you poured into them in the first place! As such, I'm kind of curious what spells the mage has up all the time, and why that hasn't brought attention for the massive astral beacon they must have become. Not to mention that mundanes can detect spells being cast (and presumably being sustained) with a fairly easy roll, depending on the force.

 If you want, you could have an enemy mage counterspell away certain spells from the quickening mage and caution them from putting all their karma 'eggs' in that basket, so to speak.  Or have the 'giant astral beacon' thing actually become a problem for the mage.

EDIT: And of course, talk to the player and tell them that you'd appreciate it if they stopped doing that, if it's becoming overpowering. Tell them that you'll just stop being as soft on it if it becomes more of a problem.

[Walks Through Walls]

If they just have aura masking then the astral beacon thing is a big deal. If they have extended masking then they could be hiding at least some of the quickened spells. Reading your post and thinking for a moment I have a couple of questions.
1) How far along is the game and how much karma does the mage have so far?
I ask because if he has quickening, aura masking and extended aura masking he has a decent amount of karma spent right there and then add to that the karma invested in quickened spells.

2) What spells are becoming unbalancing? Because like Orvich I'm curious about what spells he is running around with on all the time. This in as of itself could create new options for complications.

The first four posts all have good ideas on how to deal with it. If the character does have extended masking then the ward option might be the best since otherwise others might not even know the spells are there (depending on what they are) where the ward just stops magic without having to notice it to start with.

[Orvich]

Also:

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster.

This means that once spells equal in force to 4 is on the caster, someone with low or no ranks in perception, and standard vision enhancement on their glasses/contacts/whatever has a decent chance of noticing the magic. Once it's above 6 force, there's all sorts of glowy juju floating around, and I daresay that any bouncer would give this character a major evil eye for walking in to see the boss all lit up like that.

[Kizmet]

Also:

Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster.

This means that once spells equal in force to 4 is on the caster, someone with low or no ranks in perception, and standard vision enhancement on their glasses/contacts/whatever has a decent chance of noticing the magic. Once it's above 6 force, there's all sorts of glowy juju floating around, and I daresay that any bouncer would give this character a major evil eye for walking in to see the boss all lit up like that.

Wait- what? You can see that stuff? I thought you could see it during casting, but what about sustained attribute increase spells and stuff like that? Is a guy with a bunch of active buffs running around lit up like Chernobyl?

Anyway, it seems to me like the best way to handle it is to have the guy be forced through a mana barrier if you think he's out of line.
p.194 SR4A:
In some cases a focus, spirit, or even a character may be unintentionally forced into a situation where either they or the barrier must give. For example, a character who unknowingly walks through a mana barrier carrying an active focus, or a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (using Force x 2 for spells, spirits, foci, etc.). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted. Disrupted spells immediately end and disrupted foci deactivate.
Just make sure that the mana barrier is heavy enough to take out most of his stuff. He is going to be angry about the loss of all that karma. Better be sure that you have the right rationale behind you. ...but I bet he doesn't do that again.

[Kizmet]

You know, I think that they maybe should've been a bit more specific with that rule about passing through barriers:
If it were simple dispelling, the roll would be "Counterspelling + Magic Opposed Test against the spell’s Force + caster’s Magic (+ Karma spent in the case of quickened spells)".
If you're in an elevator being forced through a mana barrier, the roll is barrier's force x2 against spell's force x2. Because of the way dispelling adds the karma spent to the roll, I think I would let the player add the karma they spent quickening it so I wouldn't get brained by the player in the parking lot later. That makes the roll barrier's force x2 against spell's force x2 + karma spent.

Really just making them "push through" the barrier could make him shed a few of those spells if he doesn't get enough successes.

[Walks Through Walls]

You can see the spell during casting. As it states in the rule when any magic skill is being used. Once the spell is cast and sustained on the physical plane (unless it is an effect of the spell; armor is a perfect example) it has no sign to a mudane person.

However, on the astral plane they would be leaving residual magic behind that would last until after the spell is completed, which if the spell is quickened would be a long time, that can be tracked to the mage involved.

[Orvich]

Though it does indicate that accumulated mana in an area creates a physically visible warping of light. Regardless of the casting status of the spell, something equivalent to say... 12 force of spells floating around a person should still be evident!

[DaveDaveDaave]

I`m only really aware of ritual targetting being visible or the "warping" as a spell is being cast based on force, with a possible holdover mentally from previous editions when possibly divinations etc can be seen based on force? Unless the spell specifies a visible effect mundanes lack the senses to be able to know something is amiss, sort of like expecting  a blind person to describe the colour of the car that just hit him.

[Orvich]

More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air.

So, mundanes do in fact have the ability to sense magic, so the blind person thing has no real bearing on it. Anyways, it's more like having a blind (or sight impaired) person describe what it was that happened to them. They can't directly tell that it was a car, or what color it was, because they couldn't see it directly. However, they could hear the wheels screeching and were near a street, and can infer the car. Similarly, mundanes can see visual distortions and glows when powerful spells are in play, and though they can't really describe what the spell is (having no way to directly assense it), they can figure out that it's a spell.

Similarly, even spells that don't have specific visual effects do have visual effects, via the above quoted rules!

Specifically in the rules, it says that a part of the 'detect magic is happening' roll is based around seeing the caster in the process of casting, noticing the eye contact and gesturing when appropriate (though casting in no way requires gestures or muttering, silly writers!). However, there are rules for detecting ritual magic targeted at you, and it's likely you aren't in line of sight of the caster or anyone obviously casting magic! That, taken together with the section I quoted in this post, indicates that the mana itself (at significant concentrations) is visible to some degree.

It's just the same as heat. (Remember that while magic doesn't follow the normal rules of science, it follows its own pseudoscience that mirrors true disciplines of normal science.) We lack thermosensing eyes, to directly see heat and heat transfer. However, if there is enough of a temperature difference in the area around us, we can see a "heat shimmer"!  In this way, though mundanes cannot directly sense the mana involved with a spell, when there is enough of it concentrated into a spell, they are able to see 'mana shimmers'.

The second question is if this mana shimmer is only seen at the moment of casting, (when released) or if it's any time mana is accumulated. Again, you have only to turn to the ritual spell noticing rules to infer the latter. You may sense a ritual spell in the works before it is unleashed on you, you (And those around you) sense or see the very thickness of mana in the area as it slowly builds up.

Take these two together:
1) You can see accumulated mana, even if you cannot directly detect mana, by observing its secondary effects. Like a 'mana shimmer'.
2) You are seeing (visual manifestations of)  the mass of mana itself, not  the release of the mana.

And apply them to this situation:
A) A high concentration of mana is being maintained in a location.

And you get:
A.1) You can see accumulated mana. Therefore you can see this mana.
A.2) You see mana even if it's not in the act of being released. This mana is being sustained, but you can still see it.

And anyhow, if it's something like a deflection spell, it's actually constantly acting on the air around the caster. So point A.2) is kind of moot, you're still seeing magic as it's actually acting.

The rules on this aren't exactly clear without some thinking through it all, so it is really up to the GM on the matter (as it always is anyways), but there is call in the books for a ruling from a GM to say that a (significantly large) number of sustained spells would become apparent to mundanes on proper scrutiny, without having to resort to actual houseruling.

EDIT: A few spot edits for clarity.

[Walks Through Walls]

Orvich I completely disagree.
You quoted the second half of the same quote you quoted the first time which doesn't change the fact that the first half of the quote says when a magic skill is being used.
No where in the rules does it say that magic of sustained spells leave an impression on the physical world that is visible. If this was the case spells like improved invisibility would be totally useless since yes you would see the person, but you would see the shimmer of mana from the spell. Also if it was the case why would they specifically say in the armor spell that it has a blue shimmer around the recipient of the spell if all spells gave off a mana hue so to speak.
You then use the example of ritual sorcery to indicate that this means that all mana accumulations. However, this example for your purposes is flawed since ritual sorcery is the use of a magic skill and fulfills the first half of the original quote and is why it can be sensed by non-magical people.
If what you are suggesting was the case manatech like glowands, and glowmoss wouldn't be needed since everyone can 'sense' whenever there is an accumulation of mana in an area.

Now I don't disagree that if a spell is cast on someone just because they don't know what a spell is that they won't know magic was used on them. However, the original question that started the thread was talking about a mage who was quickening too many spells on himself so others aren't being targeted to "feel" the spell. 

[Orvich]

Well, in the Ritual magic example, you do see the magic before it is 'cast', before the actual firing of the spell. My question is: What differentiates magic in the act of being cast from magic that's continuing to work, from the astral/metaphysics perspective? One such difference is that you are 'weaving' multiple levitate spells (and therefore leave a series of identical spell signatures), and the 'drawing' in of the mana for the spell before you 'weave' it is causing more drain. However, in each instance of the spell, surely the 'volume' of mana being used must be the same. It's having the same outcome, and none of the causal factors have changed.

It's just like you'd use the same amount of muscle to lift a brick one moment, and the same the next. If you are passing it from hand to hand, the strain on your joints will be greater, but the amount of force you need to expend to keep it from dropping  while holding it in your right hand is the same as when you're holding it in that hand 30 seconds later. And it's just the same as you'd be having to use if you weren't passing it from hand to hand at all. This would indicate that it's the same 'amount' of mana being used in the casting of the spell, and the sustaining of the spell. All of the same magic is there in both instances, it's just more straining to repattern the mana each time. 


Also, from the Ritual magic rules: Notice that the threshold for noticing the magic (without being able to see a guy giving you the eye in the corner, or the ripple of mana actually being drawn in) is much higher than it would otherwise be. It's normally (6 - Force), when you're just detecting the mana it's (20 - Force). Of course, you also get an Extended roll, as the mana is centered around you! If it's just a guy walking past, you get no extended roll, and he'd have to be rolling with a force 15-16 spell on him for you to notice! In other words, if someone walks past with a Force 18 Improved Invisibility, sure you'll notice them! If it's anything lower than 13-14, you're having to make a threshold 7+ spot test to tell anything, which is really stretching the boundaries (Even using edge) of the possible for most characters and sensors, which generally rate up to only 6-9 dice.

Most mages won't have more than two spells active on them at once (due to sustaining penalties), and they aren't likely to be more than 4 force each (due to sustaining focus softcaps). This means that someone would need ~12 HITS minimum to sense anything amiss. And if they don't see anything amiss, why would they bother to scrutinize the person for hours at a time to pick up on anything with an extended test? They wouldn't. In other words, this sort of 'noticing magic' wouldn't become relevant to any character other than one walking around with a big stack of spells quickened to themselves, as this problem character is doing!

 I'd estimate that a quickening built character might have 4-5 times the number of spells in total force surrounding them, as force 4-5 is a good baseline force to cast at (I find). That can easily be close to the 15 force mark! If I didn't take any sort of penalty and had the karma for it, I'd have Improved Reflexes (Force 3), Deflection (Force 5), Spatial Sense (extended) (Force 4), and Detect Enemies (extended) (Force 4) on me. I'd even consider another Force 4 or so of Combat Sense, possibly a few health spells like nutrition (to eliminate the need for food all-together) or Prophlaxis to make myself very hard to infect with toxins. I might even be willing to go for higher force on some of those, as I only have to cast it once, but I do have to expend karma equal to force. Right there, that's 16 force worth of spells, enough for the detection rules to kick in. Granted, no normal person is going to have the requisite average of 12 dice to detection, but someone in the shadows has a decent chance of having that many dice!


In summary: No, rulings like this wouldn't make invisibility spells and the like useless, unless you are regularly casting at forces above 15 (Which assumes overcasting with a magic score of 7+).

If you look at what the rules are actually saying about noticing ritual magic, you can notice accumulating magic, and logically it's difficult to separate new magic in use from ongoing magic, at least from a mundane's pov.

And lastly, in a background count there would be no contrast of magic to create a shimmer (contrast is how heat shimmers work too), so you wouldn't get the effect. You'd still need a AMP to detect background counts as they are gradual and subtle, though you would get the normal psychotropic effects as in the RAW, of course.

EDIT: The book has no yay or nay say on this matter, as far as I can tell. It's like spec fic, where you take what is explicit and run it through some logic and arrive at an intuited picture of how the world works. As long as it doesn't conflict with the explicit (Which this really doesn't?), there isn't a problem. This is reading into it enough for it to be in the hourse-rule-y territory, but you aren't actually CHANGING any of the rules in the book!