[lazyphilosopher]

So, I'm new to Shadowrun, I just got a few books and have started playing around with Chummer to build a character. I decided to go with a simple concept and made a gunslinger elf. I came up with this character:


== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Artemis
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 6
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Elf Female Age 23
Height 5'9" Weight 125
Composure: 8
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 6 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6 (10)
REA: 6 (9)
STR: 2 (3)
CHA: 3
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 3
MAG: 4

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   5.00
Initiative:                11 (14)
IP:                        1 (4)
Astral Initiative:         10
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         8
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 4
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 4
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 9
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 9
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 9
Climbing                   : 1                      Pool: 4
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 9
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Con                        : 1                      Pool: 4
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 1
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 1
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 1
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Dodge                      : 0                      Pool: 8
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 9
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 4
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 1
Flight                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 9
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 9
Gymnastics                 : 1                      Pool: 11
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 9
Infiltration               : 1                      Pool: 11
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 2
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 2
Leadership                 : 1                      Pool: 4
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 9
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 9
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 4
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 9
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 2
Perception                 : 3                      Pool: 8
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1                      Pool: 10
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 8
Pistols                    : 6 [Heavy Pistols]      Pool: 16 (18)
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 8
Running                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Swimming                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 9
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Unarmed Combat             : 1                      Pool: 11

== Knowledge Skills ==
Cantonese                  : 2                      Pool: 7
Combat Tactics             : 2                      Pool: 4
English                    : N                      Pool: 0
Firearms                   : 6                      Pool: 8
Music                      : 2                      Pool: 7
Russian                    : 2                      Pool: 7
Sperethiel                 : 3                      Pool: 8
Sports                     : 2                      Pool: 7
Underworld                 : 2                      Pool: 7

== Contacts ==
Arms Dealer (3, 4)

== Qualities ==
Adept
Ambidextrous
Changeling (Class II SURGE)
Day Job (10 hrs/week)
Distinctive Style
Extravagant Eyes
Impaired Attribute (STR)
Low-Light Vision
Metagenetic Improvement (REA)
Poor Self Control (Thrill Seeker)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
Sensitive System
SINner (Standard)
The Warrior's Way
Unusual Hair

== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 3
Improved Sense (Sound Dampening)

== Lifestyles ==
Bolt  1 months
   Comforts:      Squatter
   Entertainment: Squatter
   Necessities:   Middle
   Neighborhood:  Low
   Security:      Middle
   Qualities:     Privacy Screen, Physical (Rating 1) [1LP]
                  Green Plan [-1LP]
                  Hell's Waiting Room [-2LP]
                  Loud Neighborhood [-1LP]
                  Network Bottleneck [-1LP]
                  The Building that Time Forgot [-1LP]
Middle  1 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Muscle Augmentation Rating 1
Muscle Toner Rating 4
Trauma Damper

== Armor ==
Clothing                  0/0
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Chemical Protection 3
   +Nonconductivity 6
Lined Coat                6/4
   +Fire Resistance 4
   +Insulation 2
   +Radiation Shielding 3
   +YNT SoftWeave
SecureTech Shin Guards    0/1

== Weapons ==
Morrissey Élan
   +Concealable Holster
   +Spare Clips
   +Barrel Reduction
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Personalized Grip
   +Skinlink
   +Smartgun System
   DV: 4P   AP: -   RC: 1
Ruger Super Warhawk
   +Quick-Draw Holster
   +Speed Loader
   +Firing Selection Change, Small Mod (SA)
   +Improved Range Finder
   +Increased Cylinder
   +Personalized Grip
   +Skinlink
   +Smartgun System
   DV: 6P   AP: -2   RC: 1
Ruger Thunderbolt w/ Smartgun ("Hammer")
   +Quick-Draw Holster
   +Sound Suppressor
   +Spare Clips
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Extended Clip
   +Firing Selection Change, Small Mod (FA)
   +Personalized Grip
   +Skinlink
   +Smartgun System
   DV: 5P   AP: -1   RC: 3
Ruger Thunderbolt w/ Smartgun ("Needle")
   +Quick-Draw Holster
   +Sound Suppressor
   +Spare Clips
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Extended Clip
   +Firing Selection Change, Small Mod (SA)
   +Improved Range Finder
   +Skinlink
   +Smartgun System
   DV: 5P   AP: -1   RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Novatech Airware (3, 2, 6, 3)
   +Redcap Nix [Firewall 6, Suite: Basic User]
   +Skinlink
   +Nanopaste Trodes
   +AR Gloves

== Gear ==
Ammo: EX-Explosive Rounds (Heavy Pistols) x40
Ammo: Hi-C Plastic Rounds (Holdouts) x10
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Heavy Pistols) x40
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Heavy Pistols) x120
Autopicker Rating 6
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Smartlink
   +Image Link
   +Skinlink
   +Flare Compensation
Earbuds Rating 2
   +Audio Enhancement Rating 3
   +Spatial Recognizer
   +Skinlink
Fake SIN Rating 4
   +Fake License (Ruger Super Warhawk) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Ruger Thunderbolt w/ Smartgun) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Ruger Thunderbolt w/ Smartgun) Rating 4
Medkit Rating 6
Scent-masking Cigarette x20
Survival Kit
Tag Eraser

== Vehicles ==
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
   +Anti-Theft
   +Armor, Concealed Rating 2
   +Firewall 5
   +Morphing License Plate
   +Motorcycle Gyro Stabilization
   +Run Flat Tires Rating 1
   +Smuggling Compartment, Normal
   +Spoof Chip
   +Vehicle Sensor


I was pretty happy with the character especially compared to the sample characters. Next I ran across the negative quality Astral Hazing and decided to play with the idea of Building a Streetsam with that quality. I came up with this character:


== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Klaus
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 6
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Elf Male Age 32
Height 6'1" Weight 180
Composure: 8
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 8 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 4 (5)
AGI: 7 (12)
REA: 5 (12)
STR: 1 (3)
CHA: 3
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 5
EDG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   0.11
Initiative:                10 (17)
IP:                        1 (3)
Matrix Initiative:         8
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 4
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 4
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 11
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Automatics                 : 6 [Battle Rifles]      Pool: 19 (21)
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 11
Climbing                   : 1                      Pool: 4
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 11
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 1
Con                        : 1                      Pool: 4
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 1
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 1
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 1
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 4
Dodge                      : 4 [Ranged Combat]      Pool: 18 (20)
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 11
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 4
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 1
Flight                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 11
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 11
Gymnastics                 : 0                      Pool: 11
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 1
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 11
Infiltration               : 1                      Pool: 13
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 2
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 2
Leadership                 : 1                      Pool: 4
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 11
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 11
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Negotiation                : 1                      Pool: 4
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 11
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 4
Perception                 : 1                      Pool: 6
Pilot Ground Craft         : 0                      Pool: 11
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 11
Pistols                    : 0                      Pool: 11
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 11
Running                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Swimming                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 11
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Unarmed Combat             : 0                      Pool: 11

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Contacts ==
Arms Dealer (3, 3)

== Qualities ==
Astral Hazing (non-Awakened)
Born Rich
Changeling (Class II SURGE)
Distinctive Style
In Debt (30,000¥)
Low-Light Vision
Metagenetic Improvement (REA)
Poor Self Control (Thrill Seeker)
Restricted Gear (Rating 3)

== Lifestyles ==
Low  1 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Enhanced Protein Exchange, Reakt
Genetic Optimization (AGI)
Genetic Optimization (REA)
Move-by-Wire System Rating 2
Muscle Augmentation Rating 1
Muscle Toner Rating 4
Reaction Enhancers Rating 2
Reflex Recorder (Skill) (Automatics)
Suprathyroid Gland
Trauma Damper

== Armor ==
Armor Jacket              8/6
   +Fire Resistance 3
   +Insulation 2
   +Radiation Shielding 3
   +YNT SoftWeave
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
   +Chemical Protection 3
   +Nonconductivity 6
SecureTech Leg and Arm Casings1/1
SecureTech Vitals Protector1/1

== Weapons ==
Ares Crusader
   +Concealable Holster
   +Quick-Draw Holster
   +Sound Suppressor
   +Spare Clips
   +Chameleon Coating
   +Electronic Firing
   +Gas Vent 2
   +Skinlink
   +Smartgun System
   DV: 4P   AP: -   RC: 3
Ares HVBR
   +Shock Pad
   +Spare Clips
   +Stock
   +Firing Selection Change, Small Mod (FA)
   +Foregrip
   +Gas Vent 3
   +Personalized Grip
   +Skinlink
   +Sling
   +Smartgun System
   DV: 7P   AP: -1   RC: 10
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Novatech Airware (3, 0, 0, 3)
   +Suite: Basic User [Analyze 2, Browse 2, Command 1, Edit 2]
   +Skinlink
   +Trodes

== Gear ==
Ammo: EX-Explosive Rounds (Battle Rifles) x180
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Machine Pistols) x120
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Smartlink
   +Image Link
   +Flare Compensation
   +Skinlink
Fake SIN Rating 4
   +Fake License (Move-by-Wire System) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Ares Crusader) Rating 4
   +Fake License (Reaction Enhancers) Rating 4
Medkit Rating 6

== Vehicles ==
Rover 2068 (SUV)
   +Amenities, High
   +Anti-Theft
   +Morphing License Plate
   +Off-Road Suspension
   +Passenger Protection Rating 2
   +Run Flat Tires Rating 1
   +Smuggling Compartment, Normal
   +Vehicle Sensor


This character ended up quite a bit more potent than my first. So I'm curious; is my first character underpowered, is my second character cheesy, or is there some subtle balancing aspect that isn't readily apparent?

[JustADude]

I'm on my commlink (aka smartphone) at the moment, so it's a bit hard to give the sheets a proper going-over, but they both look just fine.

The main thing about Adepts is that they tend to mature "late", while Street Samurai get more power up front but have less room to improve over the long haul.

A couple tips, though: since you're apparently not a Melee Adept, you'd be better off taking MI(Agil) rather than MI(Str), since it's really only useful for boosting Melee Damage. Also, you can get the best of both worlds by burning a couple points of Essence, once you're in play, to buy Synaptic Booster 3, Musle Toner 4, and a Suprathyroid Gland.

The total Essence cost of those Bioware mods is far less thant the equivalent in Adept Powers to get those IP and Attribute boosts, so that actually frees up more PP for stuff like Improved Ability (Pistols) and (Dodge) or more ranks of Combat Sense.

[lazyphilosopher]

It's probably easy to misread on your phone, but it's actually Impaired Attribute (str) (negative Quality) not IM(str), like you said I figured it wasn't a very important attribute given the build.

I've already got Improved reflex 3 via adept powers, Synaptic Boosters seemed really expensive in comparison, I've been curious why everyone on the boards seems to favor the Boosters.

I would definitely love to add  Suprathyroid Gland, but I've already got Muscle Toner 4 - Muscle Aug 1- and Trauma Damper and I wasn't sure it was worth burning another point of essence.

Thanks for the input.

[JustADude]

That's because Synaptic Booster 3 costs 1.5 Essence. 1.5 Essence costs you aproximately 1.5-2 PP, depending on how much "change" (aka 0.XX Essence) you have left over.

Compared to the PP cost of Improved Reflexes 3, you're paying less than half the cost in PP... and lowering the cost of buying up future Magic Points to boot.

[lazyphilosopher]

I suppose that makes sense.

Still ... 240,000¥ + restricted gear = 53 BP, ouch. I can see why so many people recommend Rating 2 when they opt for Synaptic Booster.

[JustADude]

I suppose that makes sense.

Still ... 240,000¥ + restricted gear = 53 BP, ouch. I can see why so many people recommend Rating 2 when they opt for Synaptic Booster.

Yeah.

Honestly, unless you plan on pulling a lot of Finishing Blow / Riposte type moves that 4th IP really doesn't do much for you unless your GM (or your own Mohawkishness) is throwing you into insane fights you have no business being in. Most "reasonable" situations are over in the first 3 IPs of one turn anyway.

[Glyph]

I wouldn't call either character underpowered.  I wouldn't call either of them cheesy, either, although they are definitely min-maxed (which I don't consider a bad thing in and of itself).  The augmented character is a bit more effective because, frankly, augmentation is a better route to take for overall effectiveness right out of the starting gate.

Adepts are stronger as hyperspecialists.  They make great melee specialists because they have things like critical strike, weapon foci, etc.  They make great faces because the adept abilities for it are fairly cheap and the mundane improvements are little or no essence cost, letting them combine the two to basically be the equivalent of a mundane face with 3+ more dice (and usually commanding voice, which rocks).

[All4BigGuns]

It's probably easy to misread on your phone, but it's actually Impaired Attribute (str) (negative Quality) not IM(str), like you said I figured it wasn't a very important attribute given the build.

I've already got Improved reflex 3 via adept powers, Synaptic Boosters seemed really expensive in comparison, I've been curious why everyone on the boards seems to favor the Boosters.

I would definitely love to add  Suprathyroid Gland, but I've already got Muscle Toner 4 - Muscle Aug 1- and Trauma Damper and I wasn't sure it was worth burning another point of essence.

Thanks for the input.

It's that they're not thinking about the flavor of the adept, but rather only considering things "by the math".

[JustADude]

It's that they're not thinking about the flavor of the adept, but rather only considering things "by the math".

Can we please not start this again? We all know you think Augmented Adepts are the bane of existence and the rules should be re-written to forbid anyone with a Magic attribute from ever taking any form of cyberware implant. That's your "flavor," though, not the a universal constant in the game.

"Flavor" is a personal choice. "By the math" is the universal constant.

It's our job as advisers to give LazyPhilosopher advice on how to gain the best mechanical advantage. It's up to LP to decide if that advice fits with his/her desired "flavor" or not. If not, he/she can say so and we modify our advice to work with said "flavor" restrictions.

[Glyph]

If a "flavor" is intended, it should be supported by the rules.  Shadowrun is a game where it is easier to specialize than to generalize, and where magic and augmentations give cheap, powerful boosts.  Since this is a game of teams of specialists, that has a transhumanist theme, those rules support the setting.

Adepts, on the other hand, nearly always benefit from a bit of bioware, to the point that not doing so is, in effect, gimping your character.  If you have to deliberately take a weaker option to play a character type the way it was intended, then that is very poor rules design.

There are two possible reasons for this:

One - it was unintended.  They made adepts and street samurai good at different things to make them more distinct from each other, and to keep the adepts=specialists, sammies=generalists niches from previous editions.  But they messed up, because they made some things (namely Attribute and initiative improvements) so expensive that bioware, even with the Magic loss and extra resource cost, was a better option.  If it is a rules flaw, the GM should make house rules to fix it (either make augmentations more detrimental to Magic, or make the offending powers cheaper so that "pure" adepts are as good as augmented ones).

Two - it was intended.  They wanted a setting where even magical characters would be tempted by the quick, easy boost of cerebral boosters and a good pair of cybereyes for a mage, or muscle toner and synaptic boosters for an adept.  A pure mage or adept is not as suboptimal as a pure unaugmented mundane, but is still paying for his/her principles, in a world where most people take the "shortcuts".

[All4BigGuns]

It's that they're not thinking about the flavor of the adept, but rather only considering things "by the math".

Can we please not start this again? We all know you think Augmented Adepts are the bane of existence and the rules should be re-written to forbid anyone with a Magic attribute from ever taking any form of cyberware implant. That's your "flavor," though, not the a universal constant in the game.

"Flavor" is a personal choice. "By the math" is the universal constant.

It's our job as advisers to give LazyPhilosopher advice on how to gain the best mechanical advantage. It's up to LP to decide if that advice fits with his/her desired "flavor" or not. If not, he/she can say so and we modify our advice to work with said "flavor" restrictions.

Just trying to keep people from believing that to put implants in is the "only" way to build an adept which the other camp seems intent on saying.

You have my apology.

[JustADude]

You have my apology.

Awesome, I love that song!

[Glyph]

One thing I missed the first time on your second character.  Instead of Born Rich, take Genetic Heritage.  Take one of the genetic optimizations as your freebie, saving you 45,000 Nuyen.  You also save 20% on your other transgenic mods, meaning 9,000 off the other genetic optimization, and 6,000 off the Reakt.  So overall, this leaves you with an extra 10 BP (the quality costs the same, but you don't have to get the extra 10 BP of resources), and still leaves you with an extra 10,000 Nuyen to spend.

[lazyphilosopher]

Thanks, that's a good catch. I hadn't read the description for Genetic Heritage carefully before and missed that.