[FuelDrop]

I was looking at the Sandler TMP, and I noticed two things: 1) It's primary selling point is an exceedingly low price tag. 2) It requires several upgrades to be practical for anything other than suppression fire, quickly taking it's price tag up past other guns in its category.

Likewise, the Ultimax 83 is a dirt cheap assault rifle, only a touch ahead of the AK 97. The problem with it (other than sub-par penetration) is that it lacks both recoil compensation and any form of low rate of fire. your average high-end Ganger is going to be able to afford this weapon, but it's unlikely he's going to be able to do anything with it beyond spray and pray.

A runner can afford to throw on a gyrostablizer and gas vent 3 on either of these, making them easily controllable.

Here's my question: If cheap weapons like this are uncontrollable for low-end buyers, what's their market?

[WellsIDidIt]

Spray and Pray, the true mark of an amateur.

For the Sandler, look at it from a ganger point of view. Say agility 3 and Automatics 2. The laser sight gives a +1 bonus for a DP of 6. Firing a wide Long Burst would leave the ganger rolling 1 die (1/3 chance of a hit), but his target (most likely an average pedestrian/rival ganger) would be rolling 3 or 4 dice -5 or none to dodge. Of course, when people start grabbing cover, things change drastically, and that's where the numbers game comes in. Slinging bursts in overwhelming numbers will whittle down even the largest defenses.

The Ultimax is pretty much a straight up suppression weapon. I never really saw any other use for it. A ganger can lay down suppressive fire with it to allow his buddies to retreat, advance, etc. though which is useful for the lower rung guys.

[SunRunner]

Cheap guns are for beginners who dont know any better. People with training and experience like runners will pay the price difference for the higher quality weapons because they know what they are buying.

[WellsIDidIt]

Well there is always the desperate route. Ignorance is a chunk of it as you pointed out, but even modern day you see a lot of cheap guns produced just for people that can't budget for a high quality piece.

Take a look at the difference between a Hi Point Pistol and a nice Sig Sauer or even one of the newer FN pistols (the Five-Seven is a really nice pistol. Great penetration, literally no recoil). The Hi Point won't perform near as well, but if you need something to keep under the pillow for emergencies, they will both sling lead across the room well. Hi Points only set you back a couple hundred used, maybe three hundred new. Meanwhile a good Sig Sauer or FN will set you back six hundred to a thousand easy.

[Ethan]

For the pros, they're good disposable weapons. And since they're used by lower-end deviants it's easier to frame them for random acts of violence.

A ganger's not looking at a weapon in terms of recoil.

[farothel]

cheaper weapons can often take a lot more abuse.  Take the AK-47 for instance.  If you don't clean in M16 daily, it will stop working.  You can put an AK-47 in the mud and it will still shoot.

[WellsIDidIt]

That really has more to do with the AK's design (which is all about reliability over accuracy) than it's cost. Many other assault rifles are just as reliable. The M-16 is just horribly unreliable outside of ideal conditions.

Most of the handguns I've fired can be left out in horrid conditions for weeks and not have issues. Usually the most you'll ever see happen is the springs go out in the clips (which is the only issue I've ever really seen with an AK as well).

I think the real telling point is that people are more willing to put there cheap guns up to abuse than their quality guns. Then again, I do know of a Sig that hung out in a toilet tank for four years unbagged and still managed to fire. That's pretty much just as much a praise of the ammunition as it was  the gun though.

[Wakshaani]

Let's start with one of the neatest articles, ever: Why the Taliban Can't Shoot Straight.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/

If you want to scroll down to the automatic fire section, you can, and it's the key element, but read the rest of it as well... amazingly informative.

From there, you need to figure out the flavor of your game. Are your gangers akin to those of, say, Escape from New York, powerful, in control, and paramilitary-trained with weapons fire? Do you want Batman level Gangers, scary, but beatable by a trained professional, often well-armed, but not the greatest of shots?  Do you want realistic gangers which are mostly underfed and undereducated tenagers who talk tough but actually aren't much in a firefight, mostly interested in making a lot of noise and getting home in one piece? (Most of the Taliban guys in the link fall into this area.)

From there, that'll tell you what kinds of weapons you'll see and how they're used.

Pros wil use good gear ... maybe not the TOP of the line, but good, and will know how to fire short bursts and cover one another. Automatics 3 (or 4 if you really feel fancy!), Longarms 2, Pistols 2 (3 for maybe a few), Close Combat 2, and Intimidate 3.

Batman gangers are decently armed, but aren't well-trained in it. They normally burst but some spray-n-pray will be around... most will be using pistols instead of longarms, however, as they're vastly more afforable and concealable. They're not well-trained in them, mainly using them to scare people, but can hit every now and then. They're actually more dangerous in melee. Call it Automatics 1, Pistols 2, Close Combat 2, maaaybe 3, and Intimidate 3.

Real gangers are *terrible* shots, not all that goo din a brawl (But still melee better than they shoot!) and act tougher than they really are.  No Automatics skill (Spray n pray all the way!), Pistols 1, Blades 1, Clubs 2, Unarmed 2, Intimidate 2

That'll give you some nice elementas to work with. Again, read that Taliban bit for things about target practice (Nearly nonexistant), amo issues, the effects of poor health on one's ability to fight, education levels, expctations ... amazing stuff.

[CanRay]

What's the market for AK-97s and Sandler TMPs?

Same market there is today for AKs and TEC-9s.

[Ethan]

Thanks for that link, Wak. Fascinating reading. I didn't know the gap in training was that bad.

[Critias]

Thanks for that link, Wak. Fascinating reading. I didn't know the gap in training was that bad.

Several buddies of mine spent some time over there training the new Iraqi military/police on basic marksmanship.  One common story -- heard from each of them, independently -- that one common (and frustrating) issue constantly crops up with adjustable sights.  When they explain to these guys that for longer-range shots you do X to your rifle's sights?  There's this weird sort of hivemind thing where they convince themselves that instead of adjusting the sights, you're adjusting the power level of the gun.  Like, all the time.  All these guys.  Forever.  They're somehow coming into training with the idea that it's like a phaser's power setting, and by setting the sights for longer-range fire, you're making the bullets go faster or shoot farther, or something. 

So that, consistently, they're all just adjusting their sights to maximum range, or putting their rifle on full power, as they see it.

And then...y'know...missing a lot, those times that they do bother to try and use their sights, because they're all off-kilter.

[Ethan]

That...

But... what?

I guess it comes from just complete and utter unfamiliarity with guns. Or science/reality. I recall reading an article where some taliban fighters were captured and they were asked why their sights were set to maximum. And the guy replied that it was the range at which their trainers said they'd kill infidels. I never heard they thought it was like some sort of power setting.

[Critias]

Part of the problem has to do with them being from -- in many ways -- a developing country.  More of the problem has to do with the types of people certain jobs are attracting, over there.  You don't exactly see a society's best and brightest signing up to be Taliban foot soldiers, y'know?  There aren't a whole ton of valedictorians trying to maintain an AK in some mountain hideaway while the 1st Mountain Division is after their hide.  That sort of organization, regardless of the exact cause or country, feeds itself on society's poorest, most desperate, most easily influences, and least educated.  The top tiers might have some really bright guys in 'em, but -- just like the KKK or something here in the states -- the everyday foot soldier types?  Yeah.  They're not generally the sort to take advantage of the educational opportunities they do have, and when those opportunities are slim to begin with...you can certainly see the same stuff show up in Shadowrun.  How many NPC gangers have solid mental stats, aside from the occasional theme gang (full of hackers or magicians)?  Heck, even the work-a-day security guards don't tend to be geniuses, y'know?

Anyways, sorry to derail.  Just thought I'd share that little anecdote, on the topic of accuracy and training.

[JustADude]

More kudos to you, Wak, and some to Crit as well. Really excellent information on conditions and mindsets, even if it is a bit of a derail.

I do imagine there's a bit of difference, though, between a major power, like the Ancients or First Nations, and a typical street gang. Well, at least among the "hitters"/"enforcers." Probably less so among the rank'n'file.

I know the First Nations, at least, actively recruits ex-military. Similar to the way groups like the Bloods and Crips will have members who do a tour or two and come back to teach high-level skills/tactics to the rest of their crew.

[FuelDrop]

Hey, if the derail is interesting enough then who cares if it's not 100% on topic?

Anyway, what I also find interesting is that to get a Sandler up to recoil compensation 5 (high enough to fire with full compensation) costs 800 nuyen (gas vent 3 and foregrip).
that same cost will net you a Smartgun X with an autoadjusting underbarrel weight, the same firepower +smartgun and suppressor. If I were a pro who needed a disposable weapon i know which way I'd go...

Also, there's something else I forgot to factor in: many gangers are orcs and trolls, who have high strength and thus innate recoil compensation. That would make cheaper guns more viable without upping their price.