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Optimisation of characters-do we lose something doing it?

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Thrass

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« Reply #75 on: <11-17-12/0652:35> »
I very much like Savage worlds as a System... why?
Because You choose 3 hindrances for your character which define him (you dont have too but actually but about 100% of the time you do).

These hindrances are one of 2 mechanics how you can get bennies (think edge), and generally define your character.
On top of that you drop 6 attribute points 1 edges(think positive quality like mage/ambidex for example) and 15 skillpoints.
And 4 free points (1fp = 1/2 edge,1skillpoint,1/2 attribute point).

What happens then? You play your weaknesses because everytime you play your weakness and get trouble for that you get a benny.
So you try to choose hindrances you can play and indulge... sometimes plot becomes 2nd to playing hindrances,
and I had so much roleplaying experiences with people who otherwise rollplayed all the time.

No one I played savage worlds with ever had problems with you going for a minimized or a maximized stat...
It's more the other way around... you are playing a stupid guy with no int? and added some hindrance like "real world naivitée" just that there is only the real world?
Nice... that will produce a lot of roleplaying experiences.
You are playing a heard of hearing character with bad eyesight and no perception skill?
A stubborn Brute with max strength and a vengefull attitude go for it.

The system (as I know and played it) empathizes those concepts and suddenly they get very realistic and provide means to roleplay.
And suddenly all is about this concept, which you support with the correct stats.

That is something that I alwys miss playing Shadowrun...
Oh you are playing an Asthmaticand allergic to pollen streetsam with an allergy to sea salt?
Well you are going to the docks (sea salt) of Seattle into a dusty (astmathic) warehouse in spring when pollen are flying (alergic).
"I activate my compressed air Tank."
Ok back to plot.
(This for example is a fine example of minmaxing and optimizing... you minimize resistances to allergens (minimizing) to get points for X (optimizing) and then optimize the flaw away with an air tank. Imho the optimization part where you again drop your weaknesses is not part of the minmaxing but apparently we all have a different meaning of that term.)
Your flaws never seem to get into play.
You are playing a media addict with multitasking and are constantly surfing while doing anything else?
You don't even need to roleplay that instead it is more adequate to shut up and not constantly drop random stuff like watching a new trailer to my favorite movie star x/y because it's only irritating to everyone.)
Vindictive? either you munchkin it up like some posts above and got a dice pool that's below the treshold so you don't bother to roll or you got so many dice anyway that you don't need to fear the consequences anyway.
Those are not hindrances that's minor annoyances which Shadowrun has, and which are easily circumvented.
(Simsense Vertigo and gremlins for a Bio Shaman that never ever touches technology anyway, bio incompatibility for mages that never get ware...)

When you are able to just ignore the flaws of minmaxing it get's ridiculus and you can suddenly optimize in ways that can indeed cause GM aggro, for the right reasons...

Having a realistic fun to play Character means having Character flaws... look at your daily soap... your favorite fantasy/sci-fi book or your favorite movie...
without flaws it'ld all be boring...

So you should embrace your flaws, they are what's making roleplaying worth the time.
And that's where I come back to topic and say:
We do looses something in optimisation if we "optimize" away every chance to roleplay our Character as a Character.
We don't if we just go for imba high skills which is irrelevant for roleplaying anyway above a certain dicepool.
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Reaver

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« Reply #76 on: <11-17-12/0859:09> »
Sometimes, as a GM, you gotta take control of a player's flaws and work them into the story/game. You don't have to be mean about it... But sometimes gotta be done (and can be humorous too)

Example:

The street Sam in one of my games too the dependent flaw at the +20% lifestyle rating. He decided that his character had a live in girlfriend that was a shopaholic (even paid the +10% roommate fee) and kinda left it at that... Didn't make any mention of the girlfriend for the next 5 runs.

Well after doing a run and getting a reasonable payday, the team was thinking about some downtime and he was thinking about some new cyberware. Then I hit him with this:

Me: "So John, you come back to your flat, and open the door.... Make a perception test."
<he rolls, and states that he slips his hand into his jacket to grab his pistol>

Me: "the first thing you notice is that in your living room are a number plastic bags that look to be full of something. You hear muffled movement and voices from the bedroom"

John: ".... I keep my hand on the my gun and creep down the hallway to the bedroom, and listen at the door" <rolls infeltration and then perception>

Me: "you move like a shadow down the hallway... Inside the bedroom you can hear Susie <his GF> and another female voice... They seem to be discussing the color of shoes and dresses."

John: "???.... Oh no.... I open the door"

Me: "in the room you see Susie in a two piece outfit you have never seen before, on the bed are an other 2 dozen articles of clothing, and a half dozen shoe boxes. A woman you have never met before is giving the outfit Susie is wearing a critical eye and states 'hmmm, that looked better in the store... Too bad it's non refundable..' "

John: "?!?!?! Oh gawd!"

Me: <rolls dice> "they hear you gurgle, and turn towards you, Susie has a huge smile in her face 'John! You're back! This is Victoria, my best friend from college! She was in town on a business trip and looked me up! We decided to meet at the aztech mall for coffee and this boutique was having a closing out sale so we just HAD to look around... Everything they had was just fantastic so we bought a few things..."

John: <to me> "how much did she spend???"

Me: "A quick check of your accounts shows a total purchase of $2500... With a non refundable notice attached"

John: <to me> "can I shoot her?"

Me: "you could... But is that any way for a loving boyfriend to act towards his girlfriend?"

John: <grumbles, fumes>, <to me> "can I shoot Victoria??"

Me: " you could, but somehow I think Susie would be really upset if you put two in chest one in the head of her old college friend..."

John: "that great honey! I'm.. Glad you had fun shopping" <to me> " I drop a quick message to Marcos, my fixer contact and see if he's got and quick work that needs doing..."

•••••

And thus the hard luck life of a street Sam at my table, got a little harder... He chose the flaw, he forgot about it... I reminded him, and life went on (with him remembering to take an extra 20% off in lifestyle payments for Susie clothing addiction)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Kat9

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« Reply #77 on: <11-17-12/1104:28> »
I had always used "min/maxxer" as synonymous with powergamer/munchkin/twink.

I'm not about to break out the "I've been gaming for X years," measuring tape because who honestly cares?

The above is pretty much how its always been looked at in the gaming groups I've been in.

Min/Max = Powergamer = Sucks the fun out of the game for anyone that's not min/Maxed.

IE: "Anything I throw at you that would be a challenge would kill everyone else, anything I throw at them that won't kill them you obliterate without effort and act bored."

Kat9

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« Reply #78 on: <11-17-12/1113:54> »
Sometimes, as a GM, you gotta take control of a player's flaws and work them into the story/game. You don't have to be mean about it... But sometimes gotta be done (and can be humorous too)

Example:
*words...brilliance....*

Said it before, saying it again, if you ever run a Shadowrun game via virtual tabletop, save me a slot.

Triggvi

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« Reply #79 on: <11-17-12/1226:39> »

And just as often you have the opposite where people say "BOOT THEM OUT OF YOUR GROUP NAO!" as a knee-jerk reaction to just hearing anything close to "power-gamer". THAT is when Stormwind starts getting pointed out.

With all due respect that's not what I've seen  in the last several threads that touched on the subject.

I've seen it several times. Maybe not the exact phrase, as that would probably bring a hammer down on their heads from the mods, but the gist has been such. It does seem that the biggest offender is gone though (saw where the individual is now listed as "guest" in a thread that he had posted in).

The thread was someone asking for help to minimize powergaming or min/maxing as they are the same. I responding with what I do and that is use karmagen and tell people I want characters that are playable. I also look for dumpstats, super high dice pools and lack of social skills as a tip off that the character may have problems in the game. All of those are a sign of min/maxing/powergaming. The point is I want my players to have fun and have the ability to contribute in the leg work and social situations as well as the fighting. Gun fights happen in shadowrun but they are not the only things that happen in shadowrun.

Optimizing a character is about points efficiency not about powergaming. You are looking at where you might have overspent without reason and correcting it. This helps create a more well rounded character.

All you could argue was that a 1 stat is perfectly acceptable under any condition and I disagree. I think it is a sign of powergaming or min/maxing and I am very hesitant to allow it unless you show me good reason as part of your background and you understand you will have to roleplay it.

The statement about there are no ineffective character only ineffective player is that ultimately min/maxing & powergaming in a player problem not a character problem. When you are in a role-playing game then min/maxed & powergaming characters often have nothing to do until there is a fight. The best shadowruns often time have very limited fights scenes or spurts of heavy fighting and times of working together to find a way to get the job done without getting caught (leg work and social stuff).

I have never said boot the powergamer or min/maxer. You work with them, enlighten them and let them understand they are going to have to roleplay the character negative qualities and all.

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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #80 on: <11-17-12/1416:20> »
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Never seen this one before, but I have seen people making the claim that it always is (those are the times I've mainly seen the fallacy mentioned).
Let's face it, Powergaming is always bad when it's causing a disruption in the game. Does that mean it's always bad? No. If the entire group is set and ready to go Powergaming, then it's just as viable a way to play as any other, everyone's having fun, everything is kosher.

If it's causing issues, then everyone obviously isn't set to Powergame. If the GM is having issues with a player/some players Powergaming, then the GM is obviously not set to run a game at that level, or most of his players aren't. Otherwise, the GM would be asking for advice on getting players to Powergame up to par rather than how to deal with the Powergaming issue.

Nothing to do with Roleplaying at all, yet the Fallacy always gets thrown in as though it's some sort of magical shield to hide the real issue behind.

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I've written highly involved characters, complete with detailed personal history, family ties, a Character Questions writeup, 3x3 contact grid, a well-researched cultural identity, and their own set of personal agendas that don't have anything to do with the mission at hand. Characters that I knew, inside and out, like they were a real person.
You're jumping right into the same pool here. Putting background work into a character does not make the character any better roleplayed than a character with no background work put in. Roleplaying occurs after the game starts. Background just helps you better define the role you'll be playing.

I've seen players write a twenty page story, do the friend/enemy matrix, and even plot out their address on Google Maps only to spend the entire campaign roleplaying slightly worse than the dead bugs in my porch light. Could have replaced them with some cardboard standups and things couldn't have been much worse.

On that same note. Giving a character a flaw does not immediately make them roleplayed either. Like a background, it's just another tool for creating that role that the player wants to play. Both Flaws and Backgrounds help keep the game interesting and personal, but the players have to continue to make them relevant in the game through roleplaying.
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My interpretation is that it's aimed at the false idea that a "weak", "flawed", or "sub-optimal" character is somehow better for RP than one that is mechanically optimal... as if somehow actually being well-suited for the line of work you're pursuing is going to diminish your ability to role-play... when, of course, it's actually quite the opposite.

By that I mean that big, glaring flaws are crutches used by RPers who want nice, easy hooks so they don't have to think too hard about their characters. To make an optimized character "pop," you actually have to dig into the little details to bring them to life.
And we can see where you completely jumped in. Again, competency mechanically has nothing to do with ability to be roleplayed. Now, matching ratings to your story to make things make sense should be heavily encouraged (or required depending on the GM), but there is no reason that a four year runner is better roleplayed than a green runner that hasn't really figured out what he's doing yet.

Flaws are no more crutches than optimization is, to any degree. They are simply a tool to develop a character, and are vital to the fiction process (which roleplaying is a part of). Every single lead fiction character I can think of (from good fiction at least) has big gaping flaws and a rich backstory. To argue that one is better than the other is no different than the argument the Stormwind Fallacy disproves. Gaping flaws and juicy though out backstories are not mutually exclusive.

Also, flawed characters can be optimized just as well as non-flawed characters. They just can't be min/maxed since that requires minimizing cost and flaws are a cost.
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If you already have a good character concept that will be fun to roleplay, that concept will not be negatively affected by making your character more powerful in game terms. Alternately, if you have a weak character concept that concept is neither going to be improved nor hindered by your level of optimization. If your concept is based around certain flaws to enhance roleplaying, you should still be able to create a strong, viable character despite those flaws.
Key pretty much summed it up perfectly here. Optimizing your character based on your concept does not cause you to lose anything from optimization. Where loss begins to occur is when you begin optimizing your concept to make your character more optimal and it doesn't resemble what it began as. Sure, it can still be roleplayed perfectly, and I haven't seen anyone say otherwise, but once you begin this process it leads to a narrowing of concepts that are viable to be played. On a similar note, it usually winds up causing the player to look down on those unwilling to optimize their concept rather than their character.

Where optimization of a character crosses into optimization of a concept is a blurry line that leaps and bounds back and forth depending on the character, the concept, and the player. One player making an operative from the middle east may consider augmentations to break his concept, while another may not. Similarly one player may consider augmenting his adept to break his concept, while another may not.

The key is to not force your beliefs based on the concepts you usually build onto players that have a considerably different concept for their characters. This happens quite constantly (every augmented adept thread for instance).
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Wonderful thing about english and slang... It evolves with every generation, the meaning of words change as the (general) educational level of the population slides/progresses/changes (however you want to view it)
Shhh now...you're getting dangerously close to magazine vs...uhm...that other word people use.  ;D


Crunch

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« Reply #81 on: <11-17-12/1420:22> »
+1

JustADude

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« Reply #82 on: <11-17-12/1423:21> »
Sometimes, as a GM, you gotta take control of a player's flaws and work them into the story/game. You don't have to be mean about it... But sometimes gotta be done (and can be humorous too)

Example:
*words...brilliance....*

Said it before, saying it again, if you ever run a Shadowrun game via virtual tabletop, save me a slot.

And one for me. That was just plain awesome.
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #83 on: <11-17-12/1436:23> »
Shhh now...you're getting dangerously close to magazine vs...uhm...that other word people use.  ;D

You mean clip? *pokes CanRay with a stick* :P
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Thrass

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« Reply #84 on: <11-17-12/1438:30> »
I think he got issues remembering the word issue?
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #85 on: <11-17-12/1516:35> »
The thread was someone asking for help to minimize powergaming or min/maxing as they are the same. I responding with what I do and that is use karmagen and tell people I want characters that are playable. I also look for dumpstats, super high dice pools and lack of social skills as a tip off that the character may have problems in the game. All of those are a sign of min/maxing/powergaming. The point is I want my players to have fun and have the ability to contribute in the leg work and social situations as well as the fighting. Gun fights happen in shadowrun but they are not the only things that happen in shadowrun.

With the "super high dice pools", well, that's just how capable the player wants their character to be. It does NOT mean that they are a "bad" player, nor is it a "warning sign" of disruptive behavior forthcoming.

On the lack of social skills subject since so many of the people who harp on this bring up the rating comparison table, here's a quote from that table.

Quote from: SR4A Page 119
Rating 0 Untrained
The general baseline of knowledge shared by society. This is not incompetence; it
is the standard level of untrained knowledge held by any Joe Average.
Athletics Example: Has played catch with friends in the backyard.
Firearms Example: Point the barrel, pull the trigger.
Technical Example: Can send an email, browse a Matrix site, or store data
on a commlink.
Social Example: The typical man on the street.
Vehicle Example: Basic operator’s license. Can get from here to there, but can’t
handle driving in adverse conditions.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): High school student. Screamsheet-level
of knowledge.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Never visited Seattle before, but can find it
on a map.

Emphasis mine. As you can plainly see, taking this into account, having 0 ranks in the social skills is the social ability of the typical Sixth World citizen. This means that making the Street Sam that takes 0 ranks in these skills and an average to slightly below average Charisma to have to roll the skill to buy a burger at a fast-food restaurant or buy necessities is being an antagonistic bully toward that Street Sam's player (this is sometimes caused by a desire to Power Trip--often this desire is a subconscious one).

Below is the rating that you're claiming is rating 0.

Quote from: SR4A Page 119 (above the previous book quote)
No Rating Unaware
A complete absence of knowledge or practice. Generally, this degree of ignorance
can only be achieved with the Incompetent negative quality (p. 95). A character
rated “unaware” in a skill may not default for that skill.
Athletics Example: Couch potato.
Firearms Example: Never seen a gun before.
Technical Example: Shapeshifter, Luddite, or someone born before the
Computer Age.
Social Example: Hermit.
Vehicle Example: Has never seen a car before.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Mentally damaged in some manner.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Lives alone in a cave.

Emphasis mine. As can be plainly seen, it requires a negative quality such as Incompetent, Uncouth, Uneducated or the like to be at this level of inability in a skill.

The statement about there are no ineffective character only ineffective player is that ultimately min/maxing & powergaming in a player problem not a character problem. When you are in a role-playing game then min/maxed & powergaming characters often have nothing to do until there is a fight. The best shadowruns often time have very limited fights scenes or spurts of heavy fighting and times of working together to find a way to get the job done without getting caught (leg work and social stuff).

If the character has nothing to do when there isn't combat, that is what the player wants, and that is perfectly fine, as that is merely the player's tastes and no one has the right to say they are wrong for wanting only that, but it is still a weakness in the character, so the character is not Min/Max.

YOUR opinion may be that the best 'runs have very limited combat, but that does not make it true for everyone across the board. For some people, the action of combat is the most fun aspect of any game.
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Glyph

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« Reply #86 on: <11-17-12/1756:26> »
I think a lot of powergaming isssues can be avoided if optimizers include a bit of metagaming in their optimization.  Look at what kind of game the GM is running, and what kind of challenges are being presented, and how often the GM will utilize things such as social skills, hacking, or stealth.  A character that is fine for one game might be overpowered, or underpowered, in another game.  This goes both ways.  You don't want to bring your tweaked-out vatjob into a game where everyone is playing "starting" runners.  But you also don't want to bring your generalist into a game where 90% of it is combat, social skills are never rolled, and an NPC does the hacking.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that everyone assumes the powergamer will be suffering from dump stats or other serious weaknesses.  But that is not always the case.  A lot of times, a character will be more powerful than others because of making better use of stacking dice pool bonuses, or the relatively cheap and easy boosts that you can get from magic or augmentation.  Say, one street samurai gets wired reflexes: 2 and muscle toner: 2.  Another street samurai gets wired reflexes: 2, reaction enhancers: 2, muscle toner: 4 (with the restricted gear quality), and a suprathyroid gland (with the restricted gear quality).  The second street samurai spends a bit more on gear and the two restricted gear qualities, but his Attribute bonuses more than make up for it, giving him points for a few extra skills (and later on, he will be able to get some skillsofts to be even more well-rounded), and he has higher dice pools for all of his Agility and Reaction-based skills.

An open character creation system like Shadowrun's lets you create a wide variety of characters, but their power levels go all the way up and down the chart.  More powerful characters are not always going to be disruptive, though.  The character sheet alone is not really a good litmus test for a problem player, unless it goes beyond mere optimization and into shoddy rule exploits.  The fit of the team is more important than the (almost unavoidable) disparate power levels.


Looking at the original poster's problem:
Optimization and roleplaying are not polar opposites - they can go hand in hand, because if your optimization makes sense for your role, it makes the character more believable.  I think the OP's problem is that sometimes, the most optimal choice can be different than what would fit that particular character.  Say, you are playing someone with high physical stats and middling mental stats, and you envision this character as a human.  Obviously, not playing such a character as an Ork will cost you a net 20 build points.  Or you envision your hard-bitten former Vory enforcer as the kind of guy who would use a battered AK-97 assault rifle.  Obviously, not getting an Ares Alpha will cost you 2 points of integral recoil compensation.

I think, generally, you need to do what makes sense for that character.  Having a coherent character that makes sense in your own mind is better than squeezing every last bit of effectiveness.  This assumes an otherwise effective character built both to assume a particular role (sniper, etc.), and one built with some deference to the realities of the system (uncouth is a "trap" option, unaugmented mundanes are very challenging to play).  It's a matter of balance.  Make a few small sub-optimal choices if they fit the character, but still keep in mind how your dice pools and other stats will actually work out in the game world.

Katrex

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« Reply #87 on: <11-17-12/2321:29> »
But you're all missing the point/ You're all right in your own ways but what you're missing is that when you're focusing on mechanics you're not focusing on story. Its a cop out to shape your story around the optimized charecter you've built.

When you think of what would be fun to play its doing certain things, acting in certain ways. Express those first. Then build the character.

This is why people should make their charecter with the gm, before even looking at the books.

designing the character without spending bp. Deciding what they good at and bad at. Not doing the "lets see how good we can make him at as many things as possible"

Once youve done that try and build it.

Do that with all the characters in the champaign.

Compare their bp costs. Fudge things so that everyone has the same bp costs.

Glyph

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« Reply #88 on: <11-18-12/0205:13> »
I generally start with a concept, roughly stat it out, then polish it as I work on the background.  Characters are not free-form writing assignments.  They are a mix of stats and story that are your avatar in a game world.  The rules that govern that game world, and the function characters are supposed to perform in the game, should be given due consideration rather than dismissed as being unimportant compared to the character's backstory.

The story first approach may work for you, but only if you have a GM who does it that way - tweaking the number of build points to accommodate the concept.  Otherwise, it will be frustrating; you will run out of points, then you will need to cut things that are an integral part of the character's backstory.  I find it works better, and results in a more "organic"-feeling character, if stats and backstory are done in tandem.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #89 on: <11-18-12/0210:27> »
And it works just fine to do the stats first and worry about the background later as well.
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