[TechnoGolem]

First a little background info about my group. I've been interested in Shadowrun since I played the SNES game but I've never been able to get a group together to give it a shot until now. I've run a few different RPGs but they never lasted more than a couple of months. I've also played many different systems but only one of them was based on a d6 system. My group is small and we only have three players. Two have played a little D&D 4th edition and the other has never played a RPG before.

Since everyone has no real experience with Shadowrun and it is radically different than what we are used to, I wanted to start very small. My idea is to do a short one-shot adventure with partly fleshed out characters and extreme limits on pretty much everything so that we could all get used to using skills and the basics of combat before we move on to real characters.

The rough idea that I currently have is three business men hit a bad streak of luck and found themselves living in the streets with no money. They came across some dead gangers, looted their corpses, sold their gear at a pawn show, and went to a bar for a drink. While at the bar they were approached to do a run that other runners thought was beneth them or the pay was too low for them to want to waste their time. The players desperate for money took the job offer and I plan to start the game at the pawn shop where the players will try to negotaite with the dealer to try and buy back some of the equipment they sold to him. This will give the players a chance to get used to how skills work and will give them a little choice in what weapons they start the game with.

This is where my problem comes in. I am having problems coming up with a run that would be so pathetic that only the most desperate of people would even considered it. The run needs to be some kind of milk run that goes bad but the players don't fight any real threats since they will not have much in the way of gear. I don't want any hacking or magic involved for this run. Does anyone have any good suggestions for a simple run?

[Malathis]

A local (criminal organisation, your choice) needs someone to collect protection money from local shops. The normal collector has urgent buisness or is injured, It's likely the collector hiring these three letting them take a cut of what they collect. Some shops will be easy to collect from, while others might turn into an all out fight, and anywhere inbetween, you could even borrow liberally from first run/food fight I think thats a free file somewhere in this site. If your players end up likeing these characters it's open to create a longer campaign from this point as well.

Edit: You could add hacking and magic in the next collection run to help introduce those aspects of the game to them. A new area/different stores includeing a talismonger shop for some magic, and a shop that needs the safe to be hacked to get the cred, or someone was getting tired of paying protection fees and set up a trap, they are now stuck in the store with Lonestar on the way, and need to hack the locks to get out.

[jamesfirecat]

First a little background info about my group. I've been interested in Shadowrun since I played the SNES game but I've never been able to get a group together to give it a shot until now. I've run a few different RPGs but they never lasted more than a couple of months. I've also played many different systems but only one of them was based on a d6 system. My group is small and we only have three players. Two have played a little D&D 4th edition and the other has never played a RPG before.

Since everyone has no real experience with Shadowrun and it is radically different than what we are used to, I wanted to start very small. My idea is to do a short one-shot adventure with partly fleshed out characters and extreme limits on pretty much everything so that we could all get used to using skills and the basics of combat before we move on to real characters.

The rough idea that I currently have is three business men hit a bad streak of luck and found themselves living in the streets with no money. They came across some dead gangers, looted their corpses, sold their gear at a pawn show, and went to a bar for a drink. While at the bar they were approached to do a run that other runners thought was beneth them or the pay was too low for them to want to waste their time. The players desperate for money took the job offer and I plan to start the game at the pawn shop where the players will try to negotaite with the dealer to try and buy back some of the equipment they sold to him. This will give the players a chance to get used to how skills work and will give them a little choice in what weapons they start the game with.

This is where my problem comes in. I am having problems coming up with a run that would be so pathetic that only the most desperate of people would even considered it. The run needs to be some kind of milk run that goes bad but the players don't fight any real threats since they will not have much in the way of gear. I don't want any hacking or magic involved for this run. Does anyone have any good suggestions for a simple run?

Have them knock over a Stuffer Shack.

Then while they're doing it have some real runners blow open a hole in the floor of the Stuffershack after robbing some much more well secured building and tunneling out.  Have police /security get into a fire fight with the both teams of runners either entering through the Stuffershack door or through the hole the other team blew in the floor or both.

The police will eventually get overpowered by the two combined teams, other runners dash out, jump into a vehicle and drive off, leaving your team free to loot the register and make a break for sanity, the nearest bar and a very stiff drink.

[emsquared]

Have them knock over a Stuffer Shack.

Then while they're doing it have some real runners blow open a hole in the floor of the Stuffershack after robbing some much more well secured building and tunneling out.  Have police /security get into a fire fight with the both teams of runners either entering through the Stuffershack door or through the hole the other team blew in the floor or both.

The police will eventually get overpowered by the two combined teams, other runners dash out, jump into a vehicle and drive off, leaving your team free to loot the register and make a break for sanity, the nearest bar and a very stiff drink.

Brilliant premise, jamesfirecat! You could incorporate social skills and interactions, firearms and melee, and stealth/B&E skills all pretty easily into this context. A little more complex of a structure than a stand-alone Stuffer Shack might allow for more varied situations (say a Stuffer Shack in a mall, which happens to back up to a jewelry store or bank, also in that mall), but the premise is perfect.

And, TechnoGolem, if you're concerned about having to deal with the rolls and actions of the "actual" runners who come up through the floor, just make it 100% story-told, you don't have to make their rolls, just have them provide a "bubble" for your players to create their story in once they pop out and start dealing with the fuzz, even use it to demo cool things that more experienced runners can do.

[jamesfirecat]

Have them knock over a Stuffer Shack.

Then while they're doing it have some real runners blow open a hole in the floor of the Stuffershack after robbing some much more well secured building and tunneling out.  Have police /security get into a fire fight with the both teams of runners either entering through the Stuffershack door or through the hole the other team blew in the floor or both.

The police will eventually get overpowered by the two combined teams, other runners dash out, jump into a vehicle and drive off, leaving your team free to loot the register and make a break for sanity, the nearest bar and a very stiff drink.

Brilliant premise, jamesfirecat! You could incorporate social skills and interactions, firearms and melee, and stealth/B&E skills all pretty easily into this context. A little more complex of a structure than a stand-alone Stuffer Shack might allow for more varied situations (say a Stuffer Shack in a mall, which happens to back up to a jewelry store or bank, also in that mall), but the premise is perfect.

And, TechnoGolem, if you're concerned about having to deal with the rolls and actions of the "actual" runners who come up through the floor, just make it 100% story-told, you don't have to make their rolls, just have them provide a "bubble" for your players to create their story in once they pop out and start dealing with the fuzz, even use it to demo cool things that more experienced runners can do.

If you want to make it "prescripted" but at the same time authentic just roll out the fight between the real runners and the police ahead of time.

Also much like emsquared suggested you might want to have the real runners show off some of the marks of more successful running teams to make it clear how the pros operate (all the fancy fiddly things you can do with armor, cyber limbs, have spirit backup, use Stick and Shock ammunition, full auto bursts, and if all else fails have a vehicle nearby with a sprite driving it that you can smash through a wall and run over some folks with), if you're feeling especially generous the more experienced runner team may be in such a hurry to leave that they won't bother to loot the bodies of the guys they knock out/kill insuring that  your team can get their hands on some slightly upgraded equipment after the run.

[Captain Karzak]

This is where my problem comes in. I am having problems coming up with a run that would be so pathetic that only the most desperate of people would even considered it. The run needs to be some kind of milk run that goes bad but the players don't fight any real threats since they will not have much in the way of gear. I don't want any hacking or magic involved for this run. Does anyone have any good suggestions for a simple run?

This is not a sexy idea. I mean if I was new to gaming, WTF would I want to go through all the trouble of character creation to make an ordinary dude, or worse some kinda loser? Seriously.

How about making the players be private detectives? They'll deal with civilians, law enforcement, criminal syndicates, disorganized street gangs, desperate clients who less than entirely truthful... It's good introduction to the Shadowrun world without having to do crazy shit like storming a fortified arcology.

You said most of your group has experience in several RPGs. Assuming they are not the sort of feckless idiots who, 3 months into a campaign .still don't know how to make an attack roll, then you guys should be able to handle the Core Rulebook.

Just man up and let them use what is in the Core Rulebook. Are you guys going to make mistakes? Sure. probably a lot. But at least they'll be learning the system. If instead you only gradually introduce magic and then the Matrix, your players will have to relearn how their characters interact with their environment,.Playing a street sam in a word without magic or the matrix is totally different from playing in a world where one or both of those elements are present. You'll be teaching your players the wrong lessons.

[TechnoGolem]

Actually I am the only one in the group with experience in several different RPGs. The group has very little experience, if any, and none of them want to take the time to read the rules. They want me to spoon feed them the rules and I know from experience that if I try to sit them down and go through all the rules at once they will stop paying attention and starting messing around on their phones. Hell, I brought the core rule book and the player that was most interested in playing the game on a 7 hour trip today. Not once did he even open the book despite me trying to convince him to look it over.

This is a big reason as to why I have to take baby steps when I teach them how to play any kind of non-video game. Otherwise it turns into a nightmare and they really have no clue what to do, or how to do it, and I get sick of repeating myself.

I really like the suggestion of having NPC Shadowrunners duking it out with the cops. It really is a great way to show case a typical run and what real runners are capable of. I also like the idea of them having to knock over some stores. Getting on the bad side of a small time talisman dealer would be a great way to show off magic to them.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I was the one making the characters. Since things like magic and cyberware would be too complex for this group, starting off, the characters are little more than average members of the five main races with a few basic and low skills. My players would never bother to take the time to learn how to create their own characters unless they are enjoyed the game. I figured after the one shot I would let them select from various pre-made characters in the rule book or let them make their own if they want to. So they can have a little say in the customization I am limiting them to some very basic gear and a small amount of money to pick what they want and I am also letting them pick their own race.

I know it probably comes arcoss as me being a bit of a jerk to my group for making things so simple but I know that two of the players struggled with the very simple rules of D&D 4th. It took playing once a week for nearly two months straight before they had a decent handle on the most basic rules of combat, such as what modifer they are supposed to add to the attack roll (even though they were listed on said attack) or what dice had X sides. I have no idea how easily the third player will pick it up.

They are eager to play games but unwilling to take the time to learn how to play. It's very fustrating as a GM but I live in a small town and have a very limited amount of people that are even willing to give P&P RPGs a chance.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually I am the only one in the group with experience in several different RPGs. The group has very little experience, if any, and none of them want to take the time to read the rules. They want me to spoon feed them the rules and I know from experience that if I try to sit them down and go through all the rules at once they will stop paying attention and starting messing around on their phones. Hell, I brought the core rule book and the player that was most interested in playing the game on a 7 hour trip today. Not once did he even open the book despite me trying to convince him to look it over.

This is a big reason as to why I have to take baby steps when I teach them how to play any kind of non-video game. Otherwise it turns into a nightmare and they really have no clue what to do, or how to do it, and I get sick of repeating myself.

I really like the suggestion of having NPC Shadowrunners duking it out with the cops. It really is a great way to show case a typical run and what real runners are capable of. I also like the idea of them having to knock over some stores. Getting on the bad side of a small time talisman dealer would be a great way to show off magic to them.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I was the one making the characters. Since things like magic and cyberware would be too complex for this group, starting off, the characters are little more than average members of the five main races with a few basic and low skills. My players would never bother to take the time to learn how to create their own characters unless they are enjoyed the game. I figured after the one shot I would let them select from various pre-made characters in the rule book or let them make their own if they want to. So they can have a little say in the customization I am limiting them to some very basic gear and a small amount of money to pick what they want and I am also letting them pick their own race.

I know it probably comes arcoss as me being a bit of a jerk to my group for making things so simple but I know that two of the players struggled with the very simple rules of D&D 4th. It took playing once a week for nearly two months straight before they had a decent handle on the most basic rules of combat, such as what modifer they are supposed to add to the attack roll (even though they were listed on said attack) or what dice had X sides. I have no idea how easily the third player will pick it up.

They are eager to play games but unwilling to take the time to learn how to play. It's very fustrating as a GM but I live in a small town and have a very limited amount of people that are even willing to give P&P RPGs a chance.

Have you considered that part of the problem is that you do 'take baby steps' with them? Stop doing that, set the books down on the table (all of the ones you have for the game) and tell them to have at it on making characters. Give them some guidance if they have questions, but otherwise make them learn for themselves, and lay down a rule right off of not messing around with Facebook or whatever during gaming (even character generation) to nip that part in the bud.  Being too easy on them in that way and doing the 'spoon feeding' has just led to creating a group of lazy players for you, but try those methods I suggested and it just might fix it.

[jamesfirecat]

Actually I am the only one in the group with experience in several different RPGs. The group has very little experience, if any, and none of them want to take the time to read the rules. They want me to spoon feed them the rules and I know from experience that if I try to sit them down and go through all the rules at once they will stop paying attention and starting messing around on their phones. Hell, I brought the core rule book and the player that was most interested in playing the game on a 7 hour trip today. Not once did he even open the book despite me trying to convince him to look it over.

This is a big reason as to why I have to take baby steps when I teach them how to play any kind of non-video game. Otherwise it turns into a nightmare and they really have no clue what to do, or how to do it, and I get sick of repeating myself.

I really like the suggestion of having NPC Shadowrunners duking it out with the cops. It really is a great way to show case a typical run and what real runners are capable of. I also like the idea of them having to knock over some stores. Getting on the bad side of a small time talisman dealer would be a great way to show off magic to them.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I was the one making the characters. Since things like magic and cyberware would be too complex for this group, starting off, the characters are little more than average members of the five main races with a few basic and low skills. My players would never bother to take the time to learn how to create their own characters unless they are enjoyed the game. I figured after the one shot I would let them select from various pre-made characters in the rule book or let them make their own if they want to. So they can have a little say in the customization I am limiting them to some very basic gear and a small amount of money to pick what they want and I am also letting them pick their own race.

I know it probably comes arcoss as me being a bit of a jerk to my group for making things so simple but I know that two of the players struggled with the very simple rules of D&D 4th. It took playing once a week for nearly two months straight before they had a decent handle on the most basic rules of combat, such as what modifer they are supposed to add to the attack roll (even though they were listed on said attack) or what dice had X sides. I have no idea how easily the third player will pick it up.

They are eager to play games but unwilling to take the time to learn how to play. It's very fustrating as a GM but I live in a small town and have a very limited amount of people that are even willing to give P&P RPGs a chance.

Have you considered that part of the problem is that you do 'take baby steps' with them? Stop doing that, set the books down on the table (all of the ones you have for the game) and tell them to have at it on making characters. Give them some guidance if they have questions, but otherwise make them learn for themselves, and lay down a rule right off of not messing around with Facebook or whatever during gaming (even character generation) to nip that part in the bud.  Being too easy on them in that way and doing the 'spoon feeding' has just led to creating a group of lazy players for you, but try those methods I suggested and it just might fix it.

I disagree if only because making a good (read effective/optimized) character in shadowrun has so many unwritten rules that it could lead to some people screwing themselves over and other ending up being really good by pure chance which will make the players feel upset that some characters are just flat out much better than the others out of the gate.

Some examples:

1:  Are you a mage?  Stunbolt, stunball, and something like Blizzard to attack vehicles/drones with, ignore all those special fancy spells for weakening your foes, also ignore banishing, just use more stunbolt.

2: Are you a street Samuri?  How high is your agility?  Did you make sure that it would be possible to get it as much above five as possible early on?  If you didn't then you might as well rip out your arms and replace them with robo limbs with tricked out stats to do your shooting or you.  Also make sure to pick out as much cyber limb armor as possible because it is the best part about getting cyber limbs.

3: Are you a technomancer?  Go ahead and be crippled from the waist down, and make sure you never leave the house.  (You can use all the free time this gives you to write up video reviews of Star Wars Episode VII, VIII, and IX)  Your goal should be to have incredibly pathetic physical stats, but it won't mater in the least because you should always be a few miles away from all the shooting and controlling a drone.

4: Are you picking out a weapon for yourself?  All guns are not created equal not even close.  It's not simple to figure out which gun is better than another, doubly so when you take into account what modifications you especially want (here's a hint, recoil comp, lots and lots of recoil comp is your friend).

5: Tactnet is a wonderful thing that with the right collection of drones to add into the system can give you +4 dice pool to effectively all your rolls, they are wonderful things and you should never go running without it.

Long story short, character creation is incredibly complex in Shadowrun, especially when you consider that the characters need to overseen to make sure that they are all similar levels of optimizaiton so throwing the players into the deep end and expecting them to come up with characters who they will all be willing to play down the line for several runs is highly optimistic in my point of view.

(Also since there are three of them it will probably end up being one street sam, one mage, one hacker/technomancer (with one of the three of them being a decent face) those rolls are very different and it is best to let the characters dip toes in the water of the Sixth World and do some runs with premades to let them get a feel for how things work and find what they are comfortable/happy doing.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually I am the only one in the group with experience in several different RPGs. The group has very little experience, if any, and none of them want to take the time to read the rules. They want me to spoon feed them the rules and I know from experience that if I try to sit them down and go through all the rules at once they will stop paying attention and starting messing around on their phones. Hell, I brought the core rule book and the player that was most interested in playing the game on a 7 hour trip today. Not once did he even open the book despite me trying to convince him to look it over.

This is a big reason as to why I have to take baby steps when I teach them how to play any kind of non-video game. Otherwise it turns into a nightmare and they really have no clue what to do, or how to do it, and I get sick of repeating myself.

I really like the suggestion of having NPC Shadowrunners duking it out with the cops. It really is a great way to show case a typical run and what real runners are capable of. I also like the idea of them having to knock over some stores. Getting on the bad side of a small time talisman dealer would be a great way to show off magic to them.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I was the one making the characters. Since things like magic and cyberware would be too complex for this group, starting off, the characters are little more than average members of the five main races with a few basic and low skills. My players would never bother to take the time to learn how to create their own characters unless they are enjoyed the game. I figured after the one shot I would let them select from various pre-made characters in the rule book or let them make their own if they want to. So they can have a little say in the customization I am limiting them to some very basic gear and a small amount of money to pick what they want and I am also letting them pick their own race.

I know it probably comes arcoss as me being a bit of a jerk to my group for making things so simple but I know that two of the players struggled with the very simple rules of D&D 4th. It took playing once a week for nearly two months straight before they had a decent handle on the most basic rules of combat, such as what modifer they are supposed to add to the attack roll (even though they were listed on said attack) or what dice had X sides. I have no idea how easily the third player will pick it up.

They are eager to play games but unwilling to take the time to learn how to play. It's very fustrating as a GM but I live in a small town and have a very limited amount of people that are even willing to give P&P RPGs a chance.

Have you considered that part of the problem is that you do 'take baby steps' with them? Stop doing that, set the books down on the table (all of the ones you have for the game) and tell them to have at it on making characters. Give them some guidance if they have questions, but otherwise make them learn for themselves, and lay down a rule right off of not messing around with Facebook or whatever during gaming (even character generation) to nip that part in the bud.  Being too easy on them in that way and doing the 'spoon feeding' has just led to creating a group of lazy players for you, but try those methods I suggested and it just might fix it.

I disagree if only because making a good (read effective/optimized) character in shadowrun has so many unwritten rules that it could lead to some people screwing themselves over and other ending up being really good by pure chance which will make the players feel upset that some characters are just flat out much better than the others out of the gate.

Some examples:

1:  Are you a mage?  Stunbolt, stunball, and something like Blizzard to attack vehicles/drones with, ignore all those special fancy spells for weakening your foes, also ignore banishing, just use more stunbolt.

2: Are you a street Samuri?  How high is your agility?  Did you make sure that it would be possible to get it as much above five as possible early on?  If you didn't then you might as well rip out your arms and replace them with robo limbs with tricked out stats to do your shooting or you.  Also make sure to pick out as much cyber limb armor as possible because it is the best part about getting cyber limbs.

3: Are you a technomancer?  Go ahead and be crippled from the waist down, and make sure you never leave the house.  (You can use all the free time this gives you to write up video reviews of Star Wars Episode VII, VIII, and IX)  Your goal should be to have incredibly pathetic physical stats, but it won't mater in the least because you should always be a few miles away from all the shooting and controlling a drone.

4: Are you picking out a weapon for yourself?  All guns are not created equal not even close.  It's not simple to figure out which gun is better than another, doubly so when you take into account what modifications you especially want (here's a hint, recoil comp, lots and lots of recoil comp is your friend).

5: Tactnet is a wonderful thing that with the right collection of drones to add into the system can give you +4 dice pool to effectively all your rolls, they are wonderful things and you should never go running without it.

Long story short, character creation is incredibly complex in Shadowrun, especially when you consider that the characters need to overseen to make sure that they are all similar levels of optimizaiton so throwing the players into the deep end and expecting them to come up with characters who they will all be willing to play down the line for several runs is highly optimistic in my point of view.

(Also since there are three of them it will probably end up being one street sam, one mage, one hacker/technomancer (with one of the three of them being a decent face) those rolls are very different and it is best to let the characters dip toes in the water of the Sixth World and do some runs with premades to let them get a feel for how things work and find what they are comfortable/happy doing.

None of which are actual "rules", and none of them will really cause someone to "screw themselves over" by not doing them. Most of them have to do with "optimal" rather than "playable".

[jamesfirecat]

Actually I am the only one in the group with experience in several different RPGs. The group has very little experience, if any, and none of them want to take the time to read the rules. They want me to spoon feed them the rules and I know from experience that if I try to sit them down and go through all the rules at once they will stop paying attention and starting messing around on their phones. Hell, I brought the core rule book and the player that was most interested in playing the game on a 7 hour trip today. Not once did he even open the book despite me trying to convince him to look it over.

This is a big reason as to why I have to take baby steps when I teach them how to play any kind of non-video game. Otherwise it turns into a nightmare and they really have no clue what to do, or how to do it, and I get sick of repeating myself.

I really like the suggestion of having NPC Shadowrunners duking it out with the cops. It really is a great way to show case a typical run and what real runners are capable of. I also like the idea of them having to knock over some stores. Getting on the bad side of a small time talisman dealer would be a great way to show off magic to them.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I was the one making the characters. Since things like magic and cyberware would be too complex for this group, starting off, the characters are little more than average members of the five main races with a few basic and low skills. My players would never bother to take the time to learn how to create their own characters unless they are enjoyed the game. I figured after the one shot I would let them select from various pre-made characters in the rule book or let them make their own if they want to. So they can have a little say in the customization I am limiting them to some very basic gear and a small amount of money to pick what they want and I am also letting them pick their own race.

I know it probably comes arcoss as me being a bit of a jerk to my group for making things so simple but I know that two of the players struggled with the very simple rules of D&D 4th. It took playing once a week for nearly two months straight before they had a decent handle on the most basic rules of combat, such as what modifer they are supposed to add to the attack roll (even though they were listed on said attack) or what dice had X sides. I have no idea how easily the third player will pick it up.

They are eager to play games but unwilling to take the time to learn how to play. It's very fustrating as a GM but I live in a small town and have a very limited amount of people that are even willing to give P&P RPGs a chance.

Have you considered that part of the problem is that you do 'take baby steps' with them? Stop doing that, set the books down on the table (all of the ones you have for the game) and tell them to have at it on making characters. Give them some guidance if they have questions, but otherwise make them learn for themselves, and lay down a rule right off of not messing around with Facebook or whatever during gaming (even character generation) to nip that part in the bud.  Being too easy on them in that way and doing the 'spoon feeding' has just led to creating a group of lazy players for you, but try those methods I suggested and it just might fix it.

I disagree if only because making a good (read effective/optimized) character in shadowrun has so many unwritten rules that it could lead to some people screwing themselves over and other ending up being really good by pure chance which will make the players feel upset that some characters are just flat out much better than the others out of the gate.

Some examples:

1:  Are you a mage?  Stunbolt, stunball, and something like Blizzard to attack vehicles/drones with, ignore all those special fancy spells for weakening your foes, also ignore banishing, just use more stunbolt.

2: Are you a street Samuri?  How high is your agility?  Did you make sure that it would be possible to get it as much above five as possible early on?  If you didn't then you might as well rip out your arms and replace them with robo limbs with tricked out stats to do your shooting or you.  Also make sure to pick out as much cyber limb armor as possible because it is the best part about getting cyber limbs.

3: Are you a technomancer?  Go ahead and be crippled from the waist down, and make sure you never leave the house.  (You can use all the free time this gives you to write up video reviews of Star Wars Episode VII, VIII, and IX)  Your goal should be to have incredibly pathetic physical stats, but it won't mater in the least because you should always be a few miles away from all the shooting and controlling a drone.

4: Are you picking out a weapon for yourself?  All guns are not created equal not even close.  It's not simple to figure out which gun is better than another, doubly so when you take into account what modifications you especially want (here's a hint, recoil comp, lots and lots of recoil comp is your friend).

5: Tactnet is a wonderful thing that with the right collection of drones to add into the system can give you +4 dice pool to effectively all your rolls, they are wonderful things and you should never go running without it.

Long story short, character creation is incredibly complex in Shadowrun, especially when you consider that the characters need to overseen to make sure that they are all similar levels of optimizaiton so throwing the players into the deep end and expecting them to come up with characters who they will all be willing to play down the line for several runs is highly optimistic in my point of view.

(Also since there are three of them it will probably end up being one street sam, one mage, one hacker/technomancer (with one of the three of them being a decent face) those rolls are very different and it is best to let the characters dip toes in the water of the Sixth World and do some runs with premades to let them get a feel for how things work and find what they are comfortable/happy doing.

None of which are actual "rules", and none of them will really cause someone to "screw themselves over" by not doing them. Most of them have to do with "optimal" rather than "playable".

Some of that was a little snarky and foolish but I think near the end even if only by accident I ended up hitting on a really strong point...

With three players if you want to have them fully experience and be prepared for what could come their way in the sixth world, then they will need one street samuri, one mage, and one hacker/technomancer.

Those are big choices and I think forcing the players to decide which one of those three they want to be before they've gotten a chance to see the system in action/what each character type can do/is expected to do (street sam wading through a hail of bullets, mages knocking out everyone in the room with a glance, technomancers causing automated security weapons to fire on the people who were depending on them for back up fire) and their weaknesses (street samurai you will never dish out as much damage as the mage especially the mage and his spirit pets/friends together, mage you will go down hard if people start gunning for you, and they're likely to as well if you're not careful, technomancer you aren't going to ever leave the house/van) before they go about making characters they wan to play over the course of several runs.


Let the players figure out how they want to fit into the sixth world and then have them focus on making a character to do it.

[All4BigGuns]

Some of that was a little snarky and foolish but I think near the end even if only by accident I ended up hitting on a really strong point...

With three players if you want to have them fully experience and be prepared for what could come their way in the sixth world, then they will need one street samuri, one mage, and one hacker/technomancer.

Those are big choices and I think forcing the players to decide which one of those three they want to be before they've gotten a chance to see the system in action/what each character type can do/is expected to do (street sam wading through a hail of bullets, mages knocking out everyone in the room with a glance, technomancers causing automated security weapons to fire on the people who were depending on them for back up fire) and their weaknesses (street samurai you will never dish out as much damage as the mage especially the mage and his spirit pets/friends together, mage you will go down hard if people start gunning for you, and they're likely to as well if you're not careful, technomancer you aren't going to ever leave the house/van) before they go about making characters they wan to play over the course of several runs.


Let the players figure out how they want to fit into the sixth world and then have them focus on making a character to do it.

Well, I was more trying to get the OP out of the mindset of spoon feeding them, and well throwing them in the deep end with everything open and making them learn for themselves is the best way to get a group of players out of that habit (on top of not allowing the use of Facebook or calls/texts except in emergencies during a game session).

[Captain Karzak]

I know it probably comes arcoss as me being a bit of a jerk to my group for making things so simple but I know that two of the players struggled with the very simple rules of D&D 4th. It took playing once a week for nearly two months straight before they had a decent handle on the most basic rules of combat, such as what modifer they are supposed to add to the attack roll (even though they were listed on said attack) or what dice had X sides. I have no idea how easily the third player will pick it up.

They are eager to play games but unwilling to take the time to learn how to play. It's very fustrating as a GM but I live in a small town and have a very limited amount of people that are even willing to give P&P RPGs a chance.

Oh holy crap. Are you sure Shadowrun should be the next step for them? I mean, if the relatively feeble complexity of 4e D&D was a bit overwhelming to them, why on earth would your next step be to throw them into a system as complex as Shadowrun? And make no mistake, this is a MUCH, MUCH, more complex system with a much more complex world.

Yes, it is a good idea that you are making their characters to give them a taste of the system, but this does not sound like the kind of group that will ever grow to enjoy the complexity of the Matrix rules or even the relatively simple rules for modding and accessorizing a firearm?

D20 modern, while overall being a shitty system - IMO, would be really easy for them to pick up and it's too hard to do good, basic, campaign for them set in modern times. The mechanics are simple, familiar, and you can get up and gaming with minimum time invested in system mastery.

Also, Star Wars SAGA edition is pretty good system (much better than D20 modern) with a setting everyone can get a handle on. Character creation also pretty easy, especially if you start at level 1.

Both these systems are d20 based so at least some of the basic mechanics your players learned during 4e will carry over.

[jamesfirecat]

Some of that was a little snarky and foolish but I think near the end even if only by accident I ended up hitting on a really strong point...

With three players if you want to have them fully experience and be prepared for what could come their way in the sixth world, then they will need one street samuri, one mage, and one hacker/technomancer.

Those are big choices and I think forcing the players to decide which one of those three they want to be before they've gotten a chance to see the system in action/what each character type can do/is expected to do (street sam wading through a hail of bullets, mages knocking out everyone in the room with a glance, technomancers causing automated security weapons to fire on the people who were depending on them for back up fire) and their weaknesses (street samurai you will never dish out as much damage as the mage especially the mage and his spirit pets/friends together, mage you will go down hard if people start gunning for you, and they're likely to as well if you're not careful, technomancer you aren't going to ever leave the house/van) before they go about making characters they wan to play over the course of several runs.


Let the players figure out how they want to fit into the sixth world and then have them focus on making a character to do it.

Well, I was more trying to get the OP out of the mindset of spoon feeding them, and well throwing them in the deep end with everything open and making them learn for themselves is the best way to get a group of players out of that habit (on top of not allowing the use of Facebook or calls/texts except in emergencies during a game session).

I can beyond a shadow of a doubt agree with you on the subject of how its important to get the players to focus on actually rping when you're trying to rp/learn about how to play the game, but I don't think there's anything there's wrong with spoon feeding (at least a little) in this situation since  there are three different "worlds"/main rules sets involved for them to learn.  At the very least it probably wouldn't be horrible to do one run based around being normal people/street samurai, one based around them all being mages/adepts and focusing on wards and spirits, and then one based around them all being hackers/technomancers and cracking into nodes and rigging some drones/vehicles. Those three set up runs would give each character a chance to experience each of the main rolls a runner might be involved in, and would let the players pick which one they like best then it would be time to throw them in the deep end.

[TechnoGolem]

Have you considered that part of the problem is that you do 'take baby steps' with them? Stop doing that, set the books down on the table (all of the ones you have for the game) and tell them to have at it on making characters. Give them some guidance if they have questions, but otherwise make them learn for themselves, and lay down a rule right off of not messing around with Facebook or whatever during gaming (even character generation) to nip that part in the bud.  Being too easy on them in that way and doing the 'spoon feeding' has just led to creating a group of lazy players for you, but try those methods I suggested and it just might fix it.

Last time I tried something like that was with a group of five (two of which are in my soon to be Shadowrun group) and the Hero System. It lasted about five minutes before they said screw it. The books were too boring to read and they didn't want to waste a bunch of time trying to figure out the rules for a game they didn't even know if they would like. The game was dead before it even started. This isn't the only time I've delt with such a situation.

I've had good luck with gamers in other places I've lived but my luck has been terrible where I currently live. They normally enjoy the games once they finally learn them but they refuse to do anything to learn the game on their own. If I don't explain it slowly and in small doses they won't play and I end up wasting my time.