[WellsIDidIt]

It can be removed with Brain Surgery or Gene Therapy. So, it may be around a bit, but at 15k the character will be able to kick it eventually. That's not too serious. Much less serious than a growing addiction that can rot out your essence.

Also as long as we're quoting stuff as ironclad proof let me toss this out there.

It's fortunately rare in highly-cybered individuals. Riddle me this lurker, how common are Move-by-Wire individuals? Being expensive high grade cyberware that was only a decade ago commonly known for causing this exact issue, I'm going to guess fairly rare yes? Much rarer than most other combat DNI augs like Wired Reflexes, Cyberlimbs (not always combat related but often for runners), ect. So, how does your quote disprove any of what Wyrm has said? Just because it's rare overall does not mean it isn't common in people with a rare augmentation. Doubly so when the disease mentions said rare augmentation as a case "especially" at risk.

You don't have to have Move-by-Wire to come down with TLE-x. It's rare if you don't. If you have a rare stimulus that causes TLE-x (Move-by-Wires) it's suddenly a much higher chance for you to get it.

Basically you've proven your doing what you accuse us of. I'm also done with this discussion as a whole because it doesn't serve much further purpose.

You try to accuse him of twisting things? Sheesh. Can you not be bothered to look at his quote, if not, it's Augmentation, pg. 132.

No they aren't saying 'yes' just by getting the implant. The only time that they would be saying 'yes' to that is if they took the negative quality in character generation, or if during game play the GM came out and blatantly asked if they were willing to have their character develop the ailment and then said 'yes' at that point.

If you're told something will happen when you do X, and you do X, then you are accepting that something will happen. It's simple cause and effect. You implant, you're at risk; you don't implant, you're not at risk. The GM does not have to ask permission of the players to tell them they are at risk. If they don't like his style, they're always free to leave and find someone else to play under. If they whine, piss, and moan that he isn't giving them everything exactly as they envisioned it, he's free to ask them to leave and find someone else to play under.

Therefore please presume unless specificly noted otherwise, as I did in the very early posts of this thread that I am speaking in current edition.

Canon and Background persists through editions. Mechanics change, yes, but that does not make what has happened before any less relevant in discussion. It only makes past mechanics irrelevant. He's pointed out the SR4 mechanics. Please presume unless otherwise noted that rules quotes are and have been from this edition.

[Mithlas]

Seems we're shifting into some kind of concensus then ("No matter if you support the idea or not, communication is key.") which is a pretty nice change from the usual. We should strive for this more often!

Good advice. And since the conversation seems to have come to as much consensus as it seems likely to ever do, I suggest that this thread be closed or simply left for other people later on.

The big problem I have with Wyrm's approach is it sounds lie he's decided that TLEx is a foregone outcome of getting move by wire. Then he rolls dice until he can internally justifies it to himself. Then he has it happen "at the worst possible moment" now he clarified it so that it's not outright "GM's trying to kill my character" it's just "GM's trying to gimp my character because I was stupid enough to not play a street sam his way". Wyrm...infers that TLE is a foregone conclusion. I submit to him and everyone involved that my feelings are much like JaD's, that TLE is a rare occurance and shouldn't be coming up all that often.

I agree that, like many other qualities, TLE-x shouldn't be a definite. It's not a guarantee. It's an option, wyrm is correct in that. However, just as not every hacker (because by background they've all probably run across IC) must have Scorched, not every SURGE character must have deformity, not every street sam with move by wire must have TLE-x. Most of us seem to have agreed that a good GM will say "this is an option, do you want it" or "this is a possibility, would you accept having this come up as a random but likely/eventual occurrence at a later point".

If you're going to apply it to characters as a definite, wyrm, would you give them the points for it? Or would you charge them karma to get rid of a quality they never gained points from acquiring? Although I'm sure this risks unnecessarily dragging out a conversation that's already passed its conclusion, I wish to ask wyrm: let's say you're GMing with a player who wants move by wire. You explain your 'this is something your character will get in the future' - using the same definite language you've been using thus far in the debate. The player responds "the presense of an optional negative quality says to me that this isn't something that should necessarily come with move by wire". How would you then respond?

[JustADude]

Something that just occurred to me...

Wyrm, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly (The cause-effect examples, specifically), you're working under the assumption that the drug regimine will completely or nearly-completely prevent the onset of TLE-x, and that you first gain TLE-x then start making the tests, correct?

The way I read it is that, once your GM decides you're "at risk," you have to begin to immediately make TLE-x tests while under stress and the first time you fail one you've "developed it." And, unfortunately, all the drugs do, if you'll take a look at their entry, is add a +3 DP modifier to the "stress test" to see if you contracted it.

I think lack of efficacy in the AEXD treatment is what really makes me hesitate to bring this into play, more than anything else.

EDIT: Grammar correction.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I agree that, like many other qualities, TLE-x shouldn't be a definite. It's not a guarantee. It's an option, wyrm is correct in that. However, just as not every hacker (because by background they've all probably run across IC) must have Scorched, not every SURGE character must have deformity, not every street sam with move by wire must have TLE-x. Most of us seem to have agreed that a good GM will say "this is an option, do you want it" or "this is a possibility, would you accept having this come up as a random but likely/eventual occurrence at a later point".

If you're going to apply it to characters as a definite, wyrm, would you give them the points for it? Or would you charge them karma to get rid of a quality they never gained points from acquiring? Although I'm sure this risks unnecessarily dragging out a conversation that's already passed its conclusion, I wish to ask wyrm: let's say you're GMing with a player who wants move by wire. You explain your 'this is something your character will get in the future' - using the same definite language you've been using thus far in the debate. The player responds "the presense of an optional negative quality says to me that this isn't something that should necessarily come with move by wire". How would you then respond?

Something that just occurred to me...

Wyrm, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly (The cause-effect examples, specifically), you're working under the assumption that the drug regimine will completely or nearly-completely prevent the onset of TLE-x, and that you first gain TLE-x then start making the tests, correct?

The way I read it is that, once your GM decides you're "at risk," you have to begin to immediately make TLE-x tests while under stress and the first time you fail one you've "developed it." And, unfortunately, all the drugs do, if you'll take a look at their entry, is add a +3 DP modifier to the "stress test" to see if you contracted it.

I think lack of efficacy in the AEXD treatment is what really makes me hesitate to bring this into play, more than anything else.

Both of these are similar enough for me to shoot with one answer, so I will.

Read Man and Machine, 3e, pp. 30-31.  Summing it up, Move-by-Wire incurs automatic stress damage to both your Quickness and your Reaction - every 6 months for Rating 1, 4 months for R2, 2 months for R3, and every single month for R4.  Each time you take that stress, you need to make a bare, unaugmented Willpower roll (Rule of 6 for all dice here, remember) against a target number of double your Move-by-Wire rating.  If you don't get at least one success, BAM - you have TLE-x.  MBW 1, not a problem; MBW 2, probably not.  3 and 4, though, you're pretty much guaranteed to have TLE-x before 6 months are out.

Advance to 4e.  There are WHOOOOLLE bucketloads of tech improvements in the last 12 years (M&M: 2061), but the basic way that Move-By-Wire exists has not changed.  More controlled, sure, and there are drugs to help the brain control itself.  From what I can deduce, this is the way you're actually supposed to run this:

Every week (considering that's how frequently you need to take the drug cocktail AEXD) you roll your Body + appropriate implants + pharmaceuticals (AEXD, +3) in order to reduce a Power of 5.  No matter what level of MBW you have, it's a straight-out 5.  Not sure what implants would assist; I figure anything that takes the load OFF the brain, or modifies it directly to work better.  So I would include the cerebral booster and the encephalon; maybe the trauma damper; PuSHeD, likely.  Not sure what else.  Anyone who implants this thing is going to want a good Body anyhow, so at least they have that + 3.

Even if they DO develop it, to avoid an episode it's Body + Willpower (and here I would allow AEXD to add its 3) to reduce a 3.  This probably isn't going to be much of a problem - but they get that +1 likely hit only if they keep taking the drug.

So in answer to you, JustADude, going by the rules and going by the theme as written previously, you implant MBW, you're susceptible - automatically.  Roll every week if your GM is grumpy, every month if he's cool, every 3-6 if he's really nice.  Or maybe you just ICly run that often.  From past canon, and from current implications, if you choose to implant a piece of cyberware that puts your brain into a permanent seizure, you can't really complain if it just goes ahead with them on its own, can it?

I, however, would allow for a grace period.  I would allow the drug to do just as you said - completely or near-completely prevent the onset of TLE-x.  The way I would do it is that, looking at past MBW (26 weeks at the best level), you get just that.  Let's make it nice and rounded for everything - 24 weeks free.  Well, almost - 24 weeks divided by the level of MBW you have.  So 24 weeks for level 1, 12 weeks for level 2, and only 8 weeks for level 3.  That's the number of times you can miss your weekly dose without ill effect.  Your brain has a certain threshhold, and it doesn't heal very well - if at all.  Especially not when the MBW is STILL right there, shaking things up.

After that, any time you miss the weekly dose, roll to reduce the TLE-x neurological disorder Power of 5.  If you don't reduce it to 0, congrats, you've developed TLE-x.

At that point, the 'stress tests' come into play; reduce that 3 with Body + Willpower + Did You Take Your AEXD This Week?  If you fail to, then 5 Stun damage, disorientation, paralysis - all the fun stuff related to an epileptic fit.

All that explained, Mithlas, yes, I would listen to the player.  And I would tell her that no, not every decker has to take Scorched, or Changeling a deformity, and not every street sam with Move-By-Wire has to take TLE-x as a Negative Quality at game start.  Later in the game, the decker can have a run in with IC that leaves him Scorched anyhow.  The changeling might go bathe in the Ganges and come out deformed.  Any of them could take a bullet to the spine and wind up with the effects of Paraplegic or Quadriplegic without the points to go with it.

The decker is going to go up against IC anyhow, even though that's a possibility.  The changeling is going to risk the Ganges because of the fabulous chunk of orichalcum said to be laying in its depths.  All of you are going to get into gunfights and desperately hope not to wind up in a wheelchair (which wouldn't necessarily be a game-ender for the decker, but hey).

I said it before; I explained it before.  I'll say it again.  To the player in my game who wants to implant Move-by-Wire, I will say, "If you implant Move-by-Wire, TLE-x is your legacy.  The better MBW you get, the sooner it will loom over you.  However, you may pay 500¥ per week to stave that off indefinitely.  Because the changeling chose 'bizarre diet' instead of 'bizarre body', he has to eat a super-protein diet that boosts his lifestyle costs.  Because the hacker chose unregistered programs, he has to replace his programs every two or three months.  And because you chose Move-By-Wire instead of the much-lower-impact Wired Reflexes, you have to take 2000¥ worth of drugs every month.  If the changeling doesn't eat that diet, he starts to starve.  If the hacker doesn't buy new programs, his start to degrade.  If you don't take your drugs, you get the shakes.  Any questions?"

I'm not going to give them points for TLE-x unless they take it at game start.  As well, it won't cost them karma to get rid of - though if they keep the MBW, they're only 'reset', and if they don't keep up the payments, the landlord's going to come a-collecting.

The player responds "the presense of an optional negative quality says to me that this isn't something that should necessarily come with move by wire".

"You misunderstand the use of Negative Qualities.  A Negative Quality is something bad that has already happened to your character, and which has a current and lasting impact.  You can ignore the drugs and take the Negative Quality now; you will then NOT have the indefinitely-put-off-via-drugs lead time, minimum 8 weeks anyhow.  If you get into a firefight, or a really stressful negotiation, or an argument with your girlfriend in the middle of Dante's Inferno, you will need to roll in order to avoid a seizure - right from game start.

"If, instead, you want to take all the great things that MBW does for you (wired reflexes + skill wires), and you make the payments, your brain will sit happily in your head and you'll never have to worry about it.  If you miss a week or two here or there, you'll surely be fine - for a while.  But if you keep missing, then the Brain Scrambler will come looking for his payments.  Move-by-Wire has an initial cost - 50, 85, or 175,000¥.  It has an upkeep cost - 500¥ a week.  If you do not pay your upkeep cost, things will build up, and you will pay your upkeep cost in the price of neural degeneration.  Like any other positive or negative quality that can be applied in-game, you will gain the effects in game play without BP or karma benefit - but if it can be corrected, you can do so also without karma cost."

Really, the concept behind this is blood-curdlingly simple.  If you want the MBW but not the disease, take the drugs.  If A and B, not C.  If A and not B, C.  If not A and not B, not C.  (Not entirely true that last one, but the likelihood goes way, way down.)  If my player pursued it after that, I'd tell him that perhaps he needs to consider wired reflexes and skillwires seperately; TLE-x will threaten for as long as he has the wires, period.

I really don't know how many times I have to repeat that ...

[All4BigGuns]

The problem is that most of the stuff you're pulling from is an older edition--not to mention the past of the setting--and there's a VERY HIGH probability that that has been fixed in the implant.

It's all well and good to do it if you're running in Third, but in Fourth, IMO, it should be 'take the quality, you have it' and 'if you don't take the quality, you don't have to mess with it'.

[Novocrane]

It's a nice post. Very clear, detailed and easy to follow. It's also very much an individual & gritty take on the 2070s, not "the way you're supposed to run this".

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Unfortunately, Novocrane, everything that I posted about the way I would do it - the weeks of 'lag time', the indefinite putting-off - is lenient.  Going purely by the pathogen/infection rules, once you implant move-by-wire - which is, according to those rules, the equivalent of injecting yourself with a hefty dose of a live culture of whatever disease you care to name - you need to roll Body + assisting implants + drug against the Disease's Power (5) every increment of the Speed duration.  Going by the rules written in the drug (AEXD), you have to take the drug once a week - which would imply, but not require, the Speed to be 1 Week.  In truth, it's a GM's call.  Again, according to the pathogen/disease rules, if you fail to reduce the Power to 0, you have become infected - or in the case of TLE-x, you develop the condition.

This is no different than being bit by mosquitos carrying malaria.  Or knowingly engaging in unprotected sex with a prostitute carrying the Herpes Simplex Virus-5.  Or gorging on bloated cans of spoiled food because you're starving, but knowing they're contaminated with botulism.  You can do something about all of them ahead of time - get an inoculation, wear protection, search for other food.  In the case of TLE-x, take the drug - or don't implant the cyberwear.

A4BG, virtually all of the stuff I'm using is from the Current Edition, 4th, and the Current Setting, 2074.  If we could ignore all the past editions and settings, why, you wouldn't have to worry about AIs, or otaku/technomancers, or bug spirits, or ... oh, wait.  Because we have a persistent, developing, evolving game world in which past editions develop into current ones, things that have developed in previous settings have weight on current ones, especially if current ones have rules supporting the evolution of those things.  Look at platelet factories; they don't cause heart-attacks any more, do they?  But y'know, it all still says that move-by-wire makes people particularly susceptible to TLE-x.  Not automatic, no - you get to resist it.  But damn likely.

Fortunately, everything you've said is in your opinion, A4BG.  If the rules fit your opinion, the condition would not even have a Power - just effects, because you'd only ever have gotten it during character generation.  But, see, it has a Power - which means, according to that one little detail, according to the description of the condition, according to the Negative Quality (with which you don't need to bother trying to stave it off, you start out with it right away), and according to the fluff, your opinion is restricted to your gaming table.  Going by the way that diseases are run, by everything that is, y'know, actual and factual and according to the rules as they are written, implanting a very unusual and rare (12R, 18R, and 25F availabilities) piece of cyberware is direct and constant exposure to the trigger condition of a very unusual and rare complication.

And just to quote everything that Lurker quoted, including the critical bit he so carefully left out:

Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
Bonus: 10 BP
          A fortunately rare problem among highly-cybered individuals, temporal lobe epilepsy with complications (TLE-x) is a chronic degenerative condition believed to be caused by neurological stress caused by excessive cyber implantation.  (Note: This is where Lurker stopped.  Naturally, the critical game-play notes are afterwards.)  Characters who take this quality start play with the TLE-x disease described on p. 132. If the character ever undergoes corrective gene therapy or brain surgery to correct the condition, the quality must be bought off at the cost of 20 Karma (see p. 265, SR4).

Nowhere does this state that TLE-x cannot be gained in game play as a result of implanting far too damn much cyber.  Nor does it say anywhere, in any of the crunchy or fluffy bits, that if gained in game play it needs to be bought off with 20 Karma as well as corrective gene therapy or brain surgery for correcting the condition.

You don't want to deal with something that's been historically an issue with this piece of cyber.  Now, I get that.  I don't even mind that, as I've repeatedly stated before.  I do mind you arguing that I'm clearly wrong, and that it's been fixed, and since I didn't know when I first posted to the thread I haven't done my research and discovered all the points that a) disprove and b) prove my point.  What's annoying to me is that everything that's been pulled up to use against my 'imposing' of TLE-x further proves that Move-By-Wire all but inevitably incurs TLE-x.

Man, I'm starting to think that if I gave you two baseball bats and told them not to hit your own faces with them because it'd hurt if you did, you'd do your damndest to prove me wrong ...

[JustADude]

So in answer to you, JustADude, going by the rules and going by the theme as written previously, you implant MBW, you're susceptible - automatically.  Roll every week if your GM is grumpy, every month if he's cool, every 3-6 if he's really nice.  Or maybe you just ICly run that often.  From past canon, and from current implications, if you choose to implant a piece of cyberware that puts your brain into a permanent seizure, you can't really complain if it just goes ahead with them on its own, can it?

I, however, would allow for a grace period.  I would allow the drug to do just as you said - completely or near-completely prevent the onset of TLE-x.  The way I would do it is that, looking at past MBW (26 weeks at the best level), you get just that.  Let's make it nice and rounded for everything - 24 weeks free.  Well, almost - 24 weeks divided by the level of MBW you have.  So 24 weeks for level 1, 12 weeks for level 2, and only 8 weeks for level 3.  That's the number of times you can miss your weekly dose without ill effect.  Your brain has a certain threshhold, and it doesn't heal very well - if at all.  Especially not when the MBW is STILL right there, shaking things up.

Yeah, that tweak would definitely make it much more tolerable.

So how, if at all, do you adjust for higher-grade 'ware? I just really don't see Deltaware putting the same stress on the system as Standard.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

It isn't a problem with better tech, JustADude; it's a problem with the basic concept of the gear.

Look at it this way.  I drive an old Model-T Ford into a garage.  Rappa-trappa, rappa-trappa.  I close the garage door and run that sucker for a few hours.  Lots of carbon monoxide buildup, right?  I stay in there, I'm gonna suffocate.  So I go out and get a 1976 Oldsmobile Delta 88.  Thub thub thub thub thub.  I close the garage door and run that sucker for a few hours.  Much better gas mileage, will go further and faster - but if I stay in there, I'm still gonna die.  So I go out and get a top-of-the-line $2,100,000 GT by Citroen, two bloody cars of the type in the world, and I drive THAT sucker inside my garage.  Purrr purrr purr purrr.  I close the garage door and run it for a few hours.

Guess what's gonna happen.

The problem isn't with the ware, it's what the ware is making the meat DO.  No matter the quality of it, it's putting the brain into a continual epileptic state - it's running the car inside the garage while I'm sitting inside it.  It may be a craptastic car, it may be a fantastic car, but it's still pumping CO₂ into my lungs.

If anything, the higher grades should have a greater chance of the brain going into a conniption - but the area affected would be smaller, and so your fall-over chance might go down by one - and your surgery difficulty to repair the condition would go down as well.

[PeterSmith]

What's annoying to me is that everything that's been pulled up to use against my 'imposing' of TLE-x further proves that Move-By-Wire all but inevitably incurs TLE-x.

This should make you feel better:

The entry for Move-By-Wire does not say you will end up getting TLE-x.

The entry for Temporal Lobe Epilepsy says that the condition is rare for highly-cybered individuals. While the entry does specify that Move-By-Wire systems have a higher risk factor, it does not state that it has a high risk factor. A slight difference in the spelling of the two words, but a significant difference in the impact of the two words.

[Mad Hamish]

It isn't a problem with better tech, JustADude; it's a problem with the basic concept of the gear.

Look at it this way.  I drive an old Model-T Ford into a garage.  Rappa-trappa, rappa-trappa.  I close the garage door and run that sucker for a few hours.  Lots of carbon monoxide buildup, right?  I stay in there, I'm gonna suffocate.  So I go out and get a 1976 Oldsmobile Delta 88.  Thub thub thub thub thub.  I close the garage door and run that sucker for a few hours.  Much better gas mileage, will go further and faster - but if I stay in there, I'm still gonna die.  So I go out and get a top-of-the-line $2,100,000 GT by Citroen, two bloody cars of the type in the world, and I drive THAT sucker inside my garage.  Purrr purrr purr purrr.  I close the garage door and run it for a few hours.

Guess what's gonna happen.

The problem isn't with the ware, it's what the ware is making the meat DO.  No matter the quality of it, it's putting the brain into a continual epileptic state - it's running the car inside the garage while I'm sitting inside it.  It may be a craptastic car, it may be a fantastic car, but it's still pumping CO₂ into my lungs.

How about a Tesla Roadster?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

How about a Tesla Roadster?

Wired reflexes - NOT move-by-wire.  With MBW you can do wired reflexes AND skillwires; drive your car and charge your battery.  With wired reflexes you can only do that - drive your car.  (Gasoline engine thus being equivalent to both an engine and a generator...)

The entry for Move-By-Wire does not say you will end up getting TLE-x.

The entry for Temporal Lobe Epilepsy says that the condition is rare for highly-cybered individuals. While the entry does specify that Move-By-Wire systems have a higher risk factor, it does not state that it has a high risk factor. A slight difference in the spelling of the two words, but a significant difference in the impact of the two words.

Uh.  ... wow.

Okay, sorry, Pete.  You should read and quote - I know I did.

... temporal lobe epilepsy with complications is a chronic and degenerative neurological disorder resulting from extended neurological and metabolic stress (typically the result of excessive cyberware implantation, especially move-by-wire implants)

Typically excessive cyberware implants.  Especially move-by-wire implants.  So ... yeah, there is a slight difference between 'higher risk factor' and 'especially this factor'.  You run a typical high risk of heart attack if you take in a lot of cholesterol.  You're especially vulnerable if you squirt some fat globules straight into your veins.

You can avoid TLE-x.  Straight by the rules.  Take the drug, reduce the Power from 5 to 0 every time.  Spend Edge to do so, whatever, and you're cool.  So really, nice try, but ... not as stingingly accurate as you might've liked.

[All4BigGuns]

The whole point is that it seems that you're trying to convince people into believing that any GM that doesn't just up and make people check for TLE because they have MBW that it automatically makes that GM a "hand holder putting the game on 'easy-mode'). That isn't the case. It is merely a GM who does not wish to stick a player with a debilitating condition such as that without first consulting with the player and getting their cooperation and permission to do so. This is a VERY good thing.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Seriously, you read that as my point?

My point is - has always been - to answer the OP that TLE-x is a consequence of MBW.  I said I'd hit them with it without warning - which isn't exactly what I've continued to said, I've said that I realized that MBW doesn't advertise TLE-x as a consequence, and that I'd have The TLE-x Talk with my players before they loaded the 'ware in.  And once it's in - thus they accept the danger - that if the condition comes about (and then I explained how it would come about, which is remarkably more lenient than the way the system actually has it - I gave them 2 years to start with, 100 weeks) that I'd pop them with it at inopportune moments.

I'll have consulted with my player - when they put the MBW in.  I'll have monitored my player's care or lack thereof for the health and welfare of their nervous system.  And if they ignore it for too long, hey, start rolling TLE-x chance then - instead of right away, which is what the 4e rules imply.  So yeah, I already consulted with my player.  My single mistake is presuming that it was Well Known that MBW had TLE-x as a high-frequency-rate side-effect - nausea, vomiting, muscle tremors, and epileptic seizures.  This point is not well-known, but though it's buried in four places, it is there, intact.

I defended my expectation that the player would get hit at a Bad Moment.  Whaddaya know:

When in appropriately stressful circumstances, the gamemaster may call the TLE-x victim to make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. If the test fails, the character suffers a seizure, and the “disease” effects above kick in.

I sure as hell never said 'hand holder putting the game on 'easy-mode'.'  No, I would not dream of asking the street samurai's player 'oh, I'm thinking of hitting you with that disease I warned you about and you completely blew off since you implanted that drek-hot cyberware, is that okay?' - any more than I'd ask the decker, 'hey, you haven't been cleaning up your data trails, and the trace-and-report has sent the Knight-Errant FRT to your door; is it okay if they attacked?'  Move-By-Wire is, and has always been, top-of-the-line slicker than hell cyberware.  It has always had issues for the implantee; didn't used to be you could avoid them, but now you can, and if the player chooses to not clear up their datatrail, or not take steps to avoid a disease, then by god I will nail their asses to the wall with the biggest spikes I can lay my hands on.  In my game, in-character actions lead to in-character consequences - and that's true throughout the game, not just during the firefight, or the conversation with the Johnson.

I have AlSO said at every bloody step of the way that if you want to play that way at your table, FINE - but that TLE-x being a side-effect (dodgeable, avoidable, reduce-5-Power-able) of Move-by-Wire implantation is part of Shadowrun, 4th Edition, 20th Anniversary Revised and Updated canon.  Bitch about me hitting my players with kinder versions of the rules all you like, but you sure as hell can - or rather, no longer have any faint shroud of proof, reasonable or unreasonable, that TLE-x is not a MBW side-effect the way you've claimed it has been.

Bah.  I'm done with you.

[Novocrane]

I have AlSO said at every bloody step of the way that if you want to play that way at your table, FINE - but that TLE-x being a side-effect (dodgeable, avoidable, reduce-5-Power-able) of Move-by-Wire implantation is part of Shadowrun, 4th Edition, 20th Anniversary Revised and Updated canon.  Bitch about me hitting my players with kinder versions of the rules all you like, but you sure as hell can - or rather, no longer have any faint shroud of proof, reasonable or unreasonable, that TLE-x is not a MBW side-effect the way you've claimed it has been.

Bah.  I'm done with you.

Groups are free to use any or all of the advanced rules in this chapter as they see to add further depth to various aspects of medical treatment and implantation.

I believe this is where most have been coming from.

Unfortunately, Novocrane, everything that I posted about the way I would do it ...

You meant this, of course, but it fails to come across most of the time.

Advance to 4e.  There are WHOOOOLLE bucketloads of tech improvements in the last 12 years (M&M: 2061), but the basic way that Move-By-Wire exists has not changed.  More controlled, sure, and there are drugs to help the brain control itself.  From what I can deduce, this is the way you're actually supposed to run this:

If you're playing a game where severe wounds can mangle limbs, destroy essence and otherwise make combat short(er) and filled with nasty(er) after-effects, then there are rules to support MBW being a system that will leave you a physical and mental wreck. It's not the default for SR4, though.
I don't know of any groups who are willing to run with that, but now that it's been brought into the spotlight, I kinda do. Very Verhoeven.