[Kot]

(...) the reason given for there being an Aztechnology expedition at the Bosnian pyramids is that the pyramids are so much like Meso-American pyramids.

Well, Fourth World pre-Scourge pyramids in Barsaive looked just like that. Chceck out the cover of the Parlainth book.

[FastJack]

When the team is meeting their contact in Hamburg at a anti-NEEC rally the name given for the location of the rally is very obviously a different place than the description and map given for the location.  Thirty seconds with Google Earth showed me that, so what excuse does the author have?  I guess you could argue that this is a minor thing but these days all of my players are sitting at the table with laptops and if I mention a real-world location someone in my group has it up on Google Maps/Earth immediately, which means errors like this don't slide like they used to.

Dammit... Now you got me thinking of ANOTHER project to put on my list...

[Stalker]

In a sidebar, Jane is depicted as wearing an amulet surrounding her with a high-rating mana void.  I was not able to find any explanation as to why she was doing this.  I can think of a few, but it's a weird thing to leave totally unexplained.

You mean, explanations other than "The amulet's there to keep uber-wizard Jane 'Frosty' Foster from doing the run on her own and tearing apart anyone or anything that stands in her way?"
In fact, there is an explanation. (It's implicit, though.) Ehran knows that Samriel has found a way to follow Jane around. The amulet's probably there to hide her magically (as well as any magical goodies she's carrying around with her - the disk, for instance. They're cloaked by the masking capabilities of the amulet.)

When the team is meeting their contact in Hamburg at a anti-NEEC rally the name given for the location of the rally is very obviously a different place than the description and map given for the location.  Thirty seconds with Google Earth showed me that, so what excuse does the author have?  I guess you could argue that this is a minor thing but these days all of my players are sitting at the table with laptops and if I mention a real-world location someone in my group has it up on Google Maps/Earth immediately, which means errors like this don't slide like they used to.

I just checked and I cannot see the problem. The location given in the text is the square in front of the Rathaus (townhall), near the Congress Center, near Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz. And the map just says "The Rally". What's the big deal?

In the section entitled "Grabbing the Disc" it specifically says in the Behind the Scenes section that the Aztechnology agents assisting the police with the investigation of Hermann Meyer's murder are positive that no one from Aztechnology was involved in the murder.  The text goes on to say that the murder was perpetrated by a shadowrunner from Bogota who was instructed to make it look like an Aztechnology blood mage did it, but the text fails to identify who the Johnson was.  Then in the final section called "Finding Lost Treasure" I'm reading the description of Captain Herrera, the Aztechnology commander at the Bosnian pyramid site, and it specifically says that it was she who came up with the "idea to get the disc from Meyer."  So, what, is Cpt. Herrera independently contracting shadowrunners and going behind the backs of her Aztechnology superiors?  I think not, especially given the other line from her description which says she is "...loyal to Aztechnology."  In fact, there is no other evidence that I can find that would indicate that anyone from Aztechnology even knows the disc exists; the reason given for there being an Aztechnology expedition at the Bosnian pyramids is that the pyramids are so much like Meso-American pyramids.  So what are we supposed to make of this contradiction?

Bingo, plain and utter bollocks. I've already noted it down into the errata list I'm compiling atm.

Frankly, the overall impression given by "Darkest Hour" is one of organizational chaos.  My understanding of the staff turnover at CGL leads me to believe that the transition from the original DotA author, who no longer works for CGL, and the new author is mostly to blame for the problems.  A new author brought in to finish someone else's work is inevitably going to miss details and lead to continuity errors.  The real shame is that none of these things got caught in the playtesting, proofreading and editing process.  You'd think that someone along that chain would have picked up on these mistakes.

Another point for you. Three things I noticed while reading DotA 3:

- Loads of contradictions and major errors.
- The book is extremely blunt and outspoken when it comes to the Immortals. It lacks the more vague and mysterious tone of previous releases and hits you right in the face with the facts.
- Some of the authors (probably rightly) felt that they lacked sufficient knowledge of the crossover characters, maybe even the background at large. But they didn't leave it at just doing some research. In fact, they copied large sections of the Ancient Files and didn't even bother to cover their tracks. If you're in the mood for it, just cross-read the AR-box  on Ehran in DotA 3 and Bobbie Derie's file on Ehran. The wording is almost exactly the same. Welcome to the Golden Age of Copy + Paste!

[Bradd]

My group estimated that Frosty's Magic rating is probably a little higher than the void, but just barely. We figure that she's using it to help hide herself and the artifacts from prying eyes. Ghostwalker picked up on her presence in Denver, and she desperately wants to avoid Lofwyr doing the same.

I have mostly avoided Frosty & Samriel's deus ex machina problems by letting the players run them as temporary PCs. When a regular PC is stuck away from the action, or just not very well suited to the current mission, I let the player run Jane instead. We did the same when Samriel offered help in Midnight, since the Face PC wasn't appropriate for the job.

[Semerkhet]

My group estimated that Frosty's Magic rating is probably a little higher than the void, but just barely. We figure that she's using it to help hide herself and the artifacts from prying eyes. Ghostwalker picked up on her presence in Denver, and she desperately wants to avoid Lofwyr doing the same.

I have mostly avoided Frosty & Samriel's deus ex machina problems by letting the players run them as temporary PCs. When a regular PC is stuck away from the action, or just not very well suited to the current mission, I let the player run Jane instead. We did the same when Samriel offered help in Midnight, since the Face PC wasn't appropriate for the job.

That sounds like a good way to handle things.  In between Dawn and Midnight the physad in my group challenged Samriel for his Initiation Ordeal.  He made a good showing but lost to Samriel.  It was then that he decided to go Samriel's route and sacrifice a point of magic for an Essence point worth of bioware.  However, they just haven't seen Samriel in a while since I did not use him at all in Midnight or Darkest Hour.

I can buy your explanation about Jane's use of the void amulet.  In fact, it was one of the explanations I had come up with but didn't mention in my first post on the subject.  I guess my complaint wasn't that the amulet was implausible but that it was weird that they didn't bother to put in one or two sentences of explanation for the GM's benefit.

As for Ghostwalker and Denver, I handled that....differently.  As the team made their way through Denver I had Ghostwalker taken out by an orbital Thor strike and joint military action by the treaty nations.  Spiced things up as they frantically drove through downtown with a Physical Barrier protecting them from Thor impacts 500 meters away and then running through the military cordon.

[Semerkhet]

I just checked and I cannot see the problem. The location given in the text is the square in front of the Rathaus (townhall), near the Congress Center, near Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz. And the map just says "The Rally". What's the big deal?

That's just it.  Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz is not in front of the Rathaus.  The map provided clearly *does* match the platz in front of the Rathaus, called the Rathausmarkt, but the place they describe as hosting the NEEC summit meeting is pretty obviously meant to be the "Congress Center Hamburg" which is on the north edge of the actual Dag-Hammarskjöld-Platz, which is a kilometer or so to the north of the Rathaus.  Maybe Ms. Harding was considering both Plätze and hadn't decided which one to use when she handed it off to the new author, who obviously never caught on to references to two different places in Hamburg.

Like I said, this isn't a huge deal but it did stop my game for a few minutes as my players quickly noticed that the map did not match the place-name given and we felt compelled to figure out what was going on.

Bingo, plain and utter bollocks. I've already noted it down into the errata list I'm compiling atm.

I'd love to see your list of errata.  Are you willing to share?

- Loads of contradictions and major errors.
- The book is extremely blunt and outspoken when it comes to the Immortals. It lacks the more vague and mysterious tone of previous releases and hits you right in the face with the facts.
- Some of the authors (probably rightly) felt that they lacked sufficient knowledge of the crossover characters, maybe even the background at large. But they didn't leave it at just doing some research. In fact, they copied large sections of the Ancient Files and didn't even bother to cover their tracks. If you're in the mood for it, just cross-read the AR-box  on Ehran in DotA 3 and Bobbie Derie's file on Ehran. The wording is almost exactly the same. Welcome to the Golden Age of Copy + Paste!

I have mixed feelings about "vague and mysterious" tone.  One of my complaints about the series, especially the first two installments, is that the GM is never given the slightest indication of what the big picture arc is supposed to be.  This lack of a big picture structure hurts my GM style.  Having the Big Picture(TM) in mind as I run a session guides my improvisational changes and helps me avoid painting myself into a corner later on.  I've already had decisions I made during Dawn flat out contradict things written in Midnight or Darkest Hour.  Nothing I can't deal with, but it's work I wouldn't have to do if I'd known.  

Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie.  I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.

[Stalker]

Yup, I can see the problem with the map now. Good point! Cheers for mentioning it!

I'd love to see your list of errata.  Are you willing to share?

Sorry, not yet. It's still pretty raw. I've got a nice one for you, though. This extract was taken from the Frankfurt section of DotA 3:

Only Hans Winokur knows that the Phaistos Disc was
in Meyer’s collection. It was brought to Hamburg to be stored
in the Society’s sanctum until a decision could be made about
what to do with his belongings.

When I read that, I was like: "You're freaking kidding me, right? You sent the runners to Frankfurt, they're eager to finally grab the disk, and now you tell them to go all the way back to Hamburg?" Luckily, it was just carelessness that went unnoticed by the proofreaders. It should've been 'Frankfurt', of course, not Hamburg. But I think it is very telling of the way this book was cobbled together. "Hamburg, Frankfurt, ... those damn German city names all sound the same! Just use any of them!"

I have mixed feelings about "vague and mysterious" tone.  One of my complaints about the series, especially the first two installments, is that the GM is never given the slightest indication of what the big picture arc is supposed to be.  This lack of a big picture structure hurts my GM style.  Having the Big Picture(TM) in mind as I run a session guides my improvisational changes and helps me avoid painting myself into a corner later on.  I've already had decisions I made during Dawn flat out contradict things written in Midnight or Darkest Hour.  Nothing I can't deal with, but it's work I wouldn't have to do if I'd known.

Sounds familiar to me. I could've KILLED the authors of Harlquin 1 when they wrote in the back of the book: "All of this may seem very mysterious to you. It damn well is, but we're not going to tell you what it's all about. Just play it and be glad we gave it to you in the first place." And you're just sitting there, shaking your head, thinking: "I'm the GM dammit, I need to know!"
Well, you're right. When it comes to the plot, there's no room for vagueness, I agree. But I must admit that I do like it when parts of a character remain a mystery to me, especially when it comes to the Old Ones. Not knowing every detail of an NPC's background or motivations, having to cross-reference, puzzle, guess - that's the stuff the Ancient Files are made from, and it's part of the fun.

Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie.  I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.

Whew! I must have missed that one. Mind posting the link... pleeeze?

[FastJack]

When I read that, I was like: "You're freaking kidding me, right? You sent the runners to Frankfurt, they're eager to finally grab the disk, and now you tell them to go all the way back to Hamburg?" Luckily, it was just carelessness that went unnoticed by the proofreaders. It should've been 'Frankfurt', of course, not Hamburg. But I think it is very telling of the way this book was cobbled together. "Hamburg, Frankfurt, ... those damn German city names all sound the same! Just use any of them!"

It was lunchtime and half the office wanted hamburgers and the other wanted hot dogs.

[Critias]

Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie.  I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.

One thing to keep in mind with the unpublished material he puts out?  To some of us who are then trying to take over on projects he was working on, it becomes unpublishable material. 

I had nothing to do with DotA, but there were a few other projects that I took over after he stopped working.  As an academic and a writer, I, personally, take plagiarism very, very, seriously -- so to me, suddenly the unpublished material AH is spreading around the web became something like a minefield I had to navigate.  Every good idea he had became, to me, something I was no longer allowed to work with, because I didn't want to parrot someone else's work and present it as my own.  It turned into a tightrope I had to walk, trying to still present something awesome that makes sense in the backstory of the SR universe I love so much...but without making sense the way he'd presented it, as I tried to tip-toe and not repeat anything he'd written.

I can't say for sure that's what's happened to any given extent with DotA (so I'm not making excuses for them, in particular, or anything like that), because I didn't work on it and wasn't in on any of those conversations or anything...but it's how I felt, when I got handed a few projects that had seen big chunks of them posted on the 'net before I even got started writing on them.  It may or may not have been just as jarring and delicate an issue for other writers that had to pick up projects like that, and it may or may not explain some of the organizational issues.

[Stalker]

One thing to keep in mind with the unpublished material he puts out?  To some of us who are then trying to take over on projects he was working on, it becomes unpublishable material.

Maybe that was the very thought behind doing it? Maybe he wanted to save his stuff from being being re-written and recycled? It has all happened before, you know...

I appreciate your attitude towards plagiarism and originality. Maybe you can teach it to whoever wrote the section on Ehran in DotA?

Here's the DotA text...

"EHRAN THE SCRIBE. An Immortal Elf who first appeared in 2030 as a close advisor to Lugh Surehand, Ehran was a member of Tir Tairngire’s Council of Princes until he stepped down in 2062. Ehran has kept careful watch on those of his descendants that might be an immortal as he is; he discovered that his daughter Jane “Frosty” Foster was one when she
was a little girl. However, he has hidden his relationship to Jane—especially from Jane herself—for his own reasons. [...] ."

...and here's the original...

" [...] Ehran the Scribe appeared as a close advisor to Lugh Surehand. He was a secret member of the Council of Princes until he stepped down in 2062. Ehran has kept careful watch on those of his descendants that might be immortal as he is; and he finally discovered his daughter Jane "Frosty" Foster was one such when she was a little girl."

[Semerkhet]

Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie.  I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.

One thing to keep in mind with the unpublished material he puts out?  To some of us who are then trying to take over on projects he was working on, it becomes unpublishable material. 

I had nothing to do with DotA, but there were a few other projects that I took over after he stopped working.  As an academic and a writer, I, personally, take plagiarism very, very, seriously -- so to me, suddenly the unpublished material AH is spreading around the web became something like a minefield I had to navigate.  Every good idea he had became, to me, something I was no longer allowed to work with, because I didn't want to parrot someone else's work and present it as my own.  It turned into a tightrope I had to walk, trying to still present something awesome that makes sense in the backstory of the SR universe I love so much...but without making sense the way he'd presented it, as I tried to tip-toe and not repeat anything he'd written.

I can't say for sure that's what's happened to any given extent with DotA (so I'm not making excuses for them, in particular, or anything like that), because I didn't work on it and wasn't in on any of those conversations or anything...but it's how I felt, when I got handed a few projects that had seen big chunks of them posted on the 'net before I even got started writing on them.  It may or may not have been just as jarring and delicate an issue for other writers that had to pick up projects like that, and it may or may not explain some of the organizational issues.

I definitely sympathize with you on this issue.  I think it's a testament to Mr. Derie's vision of the SR universe that you say that you have had difficulty presenting something "awesome that makes sense in the backstory of the SR universe" without repeating something he had previously written.

I'm curious, though, whether you could have used any ideas from his written material, even if he hadn't made it public.  I don't know the legal particulars but doesn't Mr. Derie own the material he's made public?  If so, current CGL authors couldn't have used the ideas contained therein, even if he hadn't made them public.  If CGL does use pieces of his unpublished work then I'd think he'd speak up, as he did when exactly this situation arose with a few bits of the Corp Guide.  If CGL owned the material then Mr. Derie would have had no legal right to make it public, correct?

I'm not saying this isn't a difficult situation for current SR writers, in fact it becomes all the more tragic that malfeasance at the top of the company led to all this turnover and organizational confusion.

[Semerkhet]

Oddly (or perhaps not) it keeps coming back to Bobbie Derie.  I still wouldn't have the big picture if I hadn't read the unpublished material he put out a while back concerning the backstory to DotA and the follow-on adventures he'd written a draft for.

Whew! I must have missed that one. Mind posting the link... pleeeze?

Here is a link to the Dumpshock topic where Ancient History, i.e. Mr. Derie, posted about his unused drafts of material for the DotA follow-on and advanced magic book.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33195&hl=

[Kot]

Oh man, that's awesome. Especially the Advanced Magic notes. It's basically Earthdawn magic in a pill, plus at least twice as many modern techniques.
What a shame that won't be printed... SR lost a lot potential here.

[The_Gun_Nut]

What would really bring SR magic closer to ED magic is a metamagic technique similar to the Durability talent from ED.  Basically, take this technique and start getting extra health levels.

Imagine a Magic 12/Initiate 6 troll adept with a half dozen extra health boxes.

[Kot]

Hah. I'd love that, as a player. But as a GM? Well, not all characters are Adepts. And why should i discriminate those? Adepts get enough goodies already, like clean +3IPs, and other powered stuff.
Blood Charms, Oaths, and minor Life magics would be better.