[Lucek]

Stupid idea I cam up with. Astral objects can't interact with objects not on the astral plane. But they can interact with dual-natured objects. Dual-natured sabot (a device that fits around a projectile to allow it to be used in objects that it wasn't intended to be fired from) would allow one to fire something that only has a astral form like a bullet with convectional weapons. Perfect assassins weapon. The projectile passes right through anything not tangible on the astral plane, walls, other people, etc. and hit the target.

OK now you can tell me why this won't work/is a stupid idea.

[Redmercury]

I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly it is you're describing, but for the bullet to pass through objects as if astral (which is a can of worms on it's own [more like a brick wall]) it would have to be astral, thus the gun firing it would have to be astral, thus the person firing it would have to be astral. It doesn't fly, on multiple levels.

Okay, I think I get what you mean, that the bullet shoots through things on the astral, in which case it would be mundane or dual-natured, in either case it would be blocked by whatever surface you intend to shoot through, to put it simply. You should also take note that while non-living things like walls won't stop astral objects, other living things, including other people would stop it. Your line of sight couldn't be good like that anyway.

[Mirikon]

A dual-natured bullet? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would not be so simple as wrapping a bullet in glomoss and calling it a day. The bullet part would work fine, but it would be hard to have the kinetic energy of the bullet (which is what does the killing) translate to the astral, where it is the 'idea' of damage that does the killing. Instead of a sabot, I would look at some naturally dual-natured material to form the bullet. Just know that it will be expensive as all hell, for very little return. You'd be better off finding an improved version of APDS ammo.

[UmaroVI]

The idea is a dual-natured sabot; kind of like using a dual-natured bow to fire a astral-only arrow. The answer is "what is the actual astral object" because there aren't really rules for that, also there's no indication that things like momentum, velocity, kinetic energy, etc. even work or make sense for astral-only objects.

[Mirikon]

Sounds like a lot of R&D for a very niche product. Unless the actual bullet was dual-natured, then it wouldn't affect anything other than dual-natured or astral critters. And unless you were, yourself, able to astrally perceive, you couldn't target the astral critters, there are better options already existing for dealing with dual-natured critters and manifested spirits, such as SnS and APDS ammo.

[Lucek]

I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly it is you're describing, but for the bullet to pass through objects as if astral (which is a can of worms on it's own [more like a brick wall]) it would have to be astral, thus the gun firing it would have to be astral, thus the person firing it would have to be astral. It doesn't fly, on multiple levels.

Okay, I think I get what you mean, that the bullet shoots through things on the astral, in which case it would be mundane or dual-natured, in either case it would be blocked by whatever surface you intend to shoot through, to put it simply. You should also take note that while non-living things like walls won't stop astral objects, other living things, including other people would stop it. Your line of sight couldn't be good like that anyway.

OK not quite. UmaroVI had it closest with the astral arrow and dual nature bow. Think of it like a babushka doll, Astral bullet in a dual-natured sabot in a real gun. The gun fires the Sabot that carries the bullet until it's leaves the gun the bullet flies off on it's own.

Is it possible, probably not. Is it practical, No! Is it fun to think about, for me that's a big yes. Basically it was a thought experiment stemming from the question how does a mundane deal with spirits and other astral entities.

[Mason]

Dual Natured means it exists on both worlds, physical and astral. Since it exists on the physical world, it does not pass through physical objects unless it does enough damage, and then it is weakened. If, however, you had a dual-natured bullet, it would strike astral only entities, making it useful to "ghost hunter" characters. However, such a thing will be ridiculously expensive and incredibly rare, if it existed at all.

[PeterSmith]

I would think it would be useful in a place like a Zero Zone. Slip a clip into everybody's daily kit, they can use it to slow down astrals while the wage mage is en route.

[Mirikon]

Mason and PeterSmith, you're both missing an important point here: targeting. Unless you're able to astrally perceive, you can't even target a creature solely on the astral. Meaning that unless that spirit manifests, or you're a mage or combat adept that happens to be looking 'sideways' at the moment, you don't even get a chance to use those fancy bullets. And, as I said, if the spirit manifests, there's already great tools for dealing with them available to mundanes. And any ghost hunter capable of watching the astral will already have better things available without having to spend potentially millions of nuyen on manatech R&D that goes beyond anything anyone has ever been able to accomplish so far (i.e. ranged attacks in the astral).

[PeterSmith]

A hallway with leech constructs starts wailing, start shooting.
Introduce FAB I into the atmosphere and keep a set of UV lights running.
Lucifer Lamps.

None of these approaches are cheap, mind you, which is why I suggested the Zero Zone scenario.

[Mirikon]

Like I said, though, this is at least decades, maybe a hundred years from being able to happen, if it is ever possible. You're talking major manatech R&D on something that no one is sure will actually be able to happen, when there are already existing tools to accomplish the job that are much cheaper and more efficient.

[Mason]

Mason and PeterSmith, you're both missing an important point here: targeting. Unless you're able to astrally perceive, you can't even target a creature solely on the astral. Meaning that unless that spirit manifests, or you're a mage or combat adept that happens to be looking 'sideways' at the moment, you don't even get a chance to use those fancy bullets. And, as I said, if the spirit manifests, there's already great tools for dealing with them available to mundanes. And any ghost hunter capable of watching the astral will already have better things available without having to spend potentially millions of nuyen on manatech R&D that goes beyond anything anyone has ever been able to accomplish so far (i.e. ranged attacks in the astral).

I kinda thought saying you are targeting an astral only entity implies you can see it. 

[Mirikon]

Yes, but that makes the assumption that you are either using the effects of a lucifer lamp or astral shallow, or you're awakened and looking 'sideways'. Lucifer lamps burn out quickly, and in an astral shallow they can simply go through floors and walls. Really small niche where something like this would even be theoretically usable, much less a viable means of attack, assuming you got the massive R&D budget and managed to make a breakthrough. And anyone awakened will have better options than trying to use dual-natured ammo.

For mundanes, spirits are really only dangerous once they manifest. And when that happens, you can shoot them with SnS or APDS. Could something like this possibly be made? Maybe, but doubtful. Would it ever be a practical weapon system? No, never.

[Lucek]

Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game.  (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game.  (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.

I ... don't know how to answer that.  Suffice it to say that this is what all corporations do, if this is the sort of thing they'd research; advances are made by discovering the impractical, and then making it practical.