[Falconer]

Problems...

One: you can't hide a real object in an astral one.  the real object does not phase through walls/people/things.

Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving.   So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve.  Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.

Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.

Four: the closest you'll come to this by the rules is to turn a bullet into a ward anchor (or maybe a triggered spell anchor... very expensive in karma and metamagics).  Even this is questionable because if the anchor is deformed or damaged (such as by the rifling of the barrel or the act of firing).   The minimum size for a ward is  1m radius... so the bullet would be a permanent 2m diameter ward... that would move along with it... if mobile wards are allowed by your GM.   Then you run into the old... forcing something through a ward problem wiping out spells, spirits, etc. which don't beat the opposed roll.   Anchoring a spell triggered on contact... is even trickier as you need to anchor both a detection spell and the combat spell greatly increasing the cost even more.

This is nothing but a variation on the 'battering ram drone ward' idea... anchor a ward on a drone or vehicle... then drive it through a space... but one thing that many people forget on this is that the drone gains Object resistance for being behind a ward (you can't counterspell the non-living object... but you can still protect and make it harder to affect).   Again though things moving at astral speeds move so fast... that this is even questionable.

[Lucek]

Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game.  (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.

I ... don't know how to answer that.  Suffice it to say that this is what all corporations do, if this is the sort of thing they'd research; advances are made by discovering the impractical, and then making it practical.

Slight vocab correction. I said impracticable not impractical. Slight but meaningful difference. I.E. Making negative temperature, impractical. Get something to 0 Kelvin, impracticable.

Problems...

One: you can't hide a real object in an astral one.  the real object does not phase through walls/people/things.

I'm not aware of anyone asking if you could.

Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving.   So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve.  Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.

Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.

Academic interest, where in the rules does it state thees? (Book, edition, page, and paragraph if you don't mind.)

Four: the closest you'll come to this by the rules is to turn a bullet into a ward anchor (or maybe a triggered spell anchor... very expensive in karma and metamagics).  Even this is questionable because if the anchor is deformed or damaged (such as by the rifling of the barrel or the act of firing).   The minimum size for a ward is  1m radius... so the bullet would be a permanent 2m diameter ward... that would move along with it... if mobile wards are allowed by your GM.   Then you run into the old... forcing something through a ward problem wiping out spells, spirits, etc. which don't beat the opposed roll.   Anchoring a spell triggered on contact... is even trickier as you need to anchor both a detection spell and the combat spell greatly increasing the cost even more.

This is nothing but a variation on the 'battering ram drone ward' idea... anchor a ward on a drone or vehicle... then drive it through a space... but one thing that many people forget on this is that the drone gains Object resistance for being behind a ward (you can't counterspell the non-living object... but you can still protect and make it harder to affect).   Again though things moving at astral speeds move so fast... that this is even questionable.

Again this was a tangent but one leading to a new idea. Nothing says the anchor has to be the outside of the bullet. Say a carving on the inside of a hollow point round. Ideally it wouldn't be marred till after it's impacted the target.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Mirikon you are convincing me that this research is going on in my game.  (Ignore below if you are in my game.) One of my main plot points is a secret Megacorp that does just the kinda thing. The more impracticable the research the more likely they'd research it.

I ... don't know how to answer that.  Suffice it to say that this is what all corporations do, if this is the sort of thing they'd research; advances are made by discovering the impractical, and then making it practical.

Slight vocab correction. I said impracticable not impractical. Slight but meaningful difference. I.E. Making negative temperature, impractical. Get something to 0 Kelvin, impracticable.

Don't correct me; I rarely use words incorrectly, and did not do so this time.

You may have a 'secret megacorp' in your game, but what you're apparently not getting is that 'impracticable' research is what some little section of all the corporations do, all the time.  They're called think-tanks, whether that's economic, military, mystical, or whatever.  The reason think-tanks can do this is because they are being funded by people who take their dumb-ass ideas and designs, however impractical or impracticable they are, and work on making them practical and practicable, and then selling those gizmos and gadgetries to the general populous for craploads of money that they a) return to their investors and b) use to fund the secret think-tank that came up with the idea for Gizmo A in order to come up with the idea for Gizmo B.

Or, said another way, I'm sure your 'secret megacorporation' will prove to be great fun, however unlikely it logically is, in either that it's still secret, or that 'impracticable research' is its main focus.

[Lucek]

Don't correct me; I rarely use words incorrectly, and did not do so this time.

You didn't use a word incorrectly, you replaced a word with a different word that isn't a synonymy.

Or, said another way, I'm sure your 'secret megacorporation' will prove to be great fun, however unlikely it logically is, in either that it's still secret, or that 'impracticable research' is its main focus.

It's not illogical. There is a single place that you can't be seen. They simple stay there. And have for a long time in my person version of shadow run history.

[Mirikon]

Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving.   So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve.  Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.

Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.

Academic interest, where in the rules does it state thees? (Book, edition, page, and paragraph if you don't mind.)

Astral Com bat
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally
perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes
and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral
Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting
characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see
the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill.
There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so
unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the
only options for astral combat.
Most astral combat damage is based on the character’s astral
strength (Charisma), as noted on the Astral Combat table. Damage
inflicted from astral combat attacks can be either Stun or Physical
(attacker’s choice). Astral objects like barriers can only be affected by
Physical damage.

Here's the thing. You need a living aura to even be present on the astral. While nonliving objects create shadows, they cannot affect the astral. Weapon foci only work because the user's aura is bound into it. If it leaves their body, then it deactivates immediately.

Again, what you're talking about is a change in the fundamental structure of magic as we know it. Simply painting bullets in glomoss won't cut it. If it was that simple, someone would have done it by now. Now, you find a piece of dual-natured rock, and make a spear out of it, then you might, might be able to do something. Maybe. However, the damage would have nothing to do with your physical stats, but would work off your Astral Combat skill and mental stats. There are only three skills that let you attack in the Astral: Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Astral Combat. Nothing else works, period.

[Lucek]

Two: aimed at Peter and others... the rules state that even a dual natured weapon focus cannot be used to attack an astral entity unless the wielder is astrally percieving.   So right there is a nail in the coffin... of any mundane who can't astrally percieve.  Attacking an astral entity also requires the trained only 'astral combat' skill which has a prerequisite of must be able to astrally perceive.

Three: there are *NO* ranged weapons on the astral... the best you can do is extend your reach.

Academic interest, where in the rules does it state thees? (Book, edition, page, and paragraph if you don't mind.)

Astral Com bat
Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally
perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes
and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral
Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting
characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see
the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill.
There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so
unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the
only options for astral combat.
Most astral combat damage is based on the character’s astral
strength (Charisma), as noted on the Astral Combat table. Damage
inflicted from astral combat attacks can be either Stun or Physical
(attacker’s choice). Astral objects like barriers can only be affected by
Physical damage.

Here's the thing. You need a living aura to even be present on the astral. While nonliving objects create shadows, they cannot affect the astral. Weapon foci only work because the user's aura is bound into it. If it leaves their body, then it deactivates immediately.

Again, what you're talking about is a change in the fundamental structure of magic as we know it. Simply painting bullets in glomoss won't cut it. If it was that simple, someone would have done it by now. Now, you find a piece of dual-natured rock, and make a spear out of it, then you might, might be able to do something. Maybe. However, the damage would have nothing to do with your physical stats, but would work off your Astral Combat skill and mental stats. There are only three skills that let you attack in the Astral: Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Astral Combat. Nothing else works, period.

I would note 1 thing. You are in fact reading what isn't there. No where in that paragraph did it say no ranged combat nor did it say no astral blinded combat. Just How to calculate damage depending on how you are precising an astral entity, and "no known ranged weapons that function in astral space". As such it's not changing any current rule just adding in a new one/s.

Again it's a small distinction but an important one.

BTW don't use the argument, "If it was that simple, someone would have done it by now". I'm going to try keeping this civil so I won't say what I think about it, just know it's not a good argument whatsoever.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Wow.

Just ... wow.

So ... since we're all going to 'try to keep this civil', I guess we'll all be leaving you alone, then.

[Falconer]

http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/

"If a character has a dual-natured weapon but is not astrally perceiving, can they still attack things on the astral? What about a mundane with a dual-natured weapon, like a sword possessed by a spirit?

Under the current rules, only characters present on the astral (astrally perceiving or projecting) can engage in Astral combat. This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook."


That's where I pulled the other half of that question of yours... that a mundane cannot target things on the astral.   (look at astral movement speeds and realize that things in meat are super-slow compared to an astral form with fly speed perfect 10x that of a gravity bound earthling.

"Can you attack a target on the astral using a dual-natured metahuman or critter as an improvised melee weapon?

Under the current rules, only unarmed attacks, Natural Weapons, and weapon foci deal damage in Astral Combat. This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook."

So even if you ARE astrally percieving you're still limited to those forms of attack and can't pull an improvised astral weapon.

As for the rest of your comments... the point is the rulebook states it outright that there are no ranged astral weapons (excepting mana spalls and mana critter powers).

Any kind of outburst on your part doesn't make that not so.  It only demonstrates that you feel somehow you're a special snowflake... not subject to the same rules as the rest of us.   Barring any additions to the setting this is unlikely to change  (from an unnamed sourcebook which is unlikely to be published with 5th ed on the horizon).

[Wildcard]

The FAQ is pre-4a, and hopelessly outdated.

That said, ranged weapons that can hit astral entities have been needed to help balance out the game for a long time. Hopefully 5th edition finally fixes that glaring error.

[All4BigGuns]

The FAQ is pre-4a, and hopelessly outdated.

That said, ranged weapons that can hit astral entities have been needed to help balance out the game for a long time. Hopefully 5th edition finally fixes that glaring error.

The first sentence is quite true, and it is made worse by the blatant rules contradictions (see the mystic adept contraversy) it contains.

The second, not really, no there doesn't need to be 'astral ranged weapons', and even if the developers did decide to introduce such a thing, it probably would be in the form of bows or crossbows and not firearms (which some--mainly the 'optimization' crowd--would still gripe about).

[Mirikon]

Why are they needed? Astral entities can't attack unless their target is dual-natured or astrally projecting/perceiving. In other words, only those on the astral can be attacked by the astral. All a mundane has to worry about is when a spirit materializes, in which case there are several things already existing that the mundane can use against them, namely SnS and APDS ammo, amongst others. About the only use I could see for this on any kind of regular basis would be for a ghoul or other dual-natured creature that is not an adept or mage. And that weakness is part of the balancing factors against creatures that are typically significantly more powerful than a normal metahuman.

[Lucek]

As for the rest of your comments... the point is the rulebook states it outright that there are no ranged astral weapons (excepting mana spalls and mana critter powers).

Again no. It stated no known. We aren't talking about if something is in the rules but if it is allowed/not disallowed by the rules. They left it vague, and the argument can be raised.

[Falconer]

The FAQ is pre-4a, and hopelessly outdated.

That said, ranged weapons that can hit astral entities have been needed to help balance out the game for a long time. Hopefully 5th edition finally fixes that glaring error.

The first sentence is quite true, and it is made worse by the blatant rules contradictions (see the mystic adept contraversy) it contains.

Okay I'm going to stop this now... the current FAQ was written FOR SR4a... it was written by an author with full knowledge and NDA of SR4a...   It is a matter of public record by that author that it was written for SR4a with the full blessings of the line developer.

Don't post BS like this.   Especially ignorant uninformed BS like this.

The FAQ covers over 200 topics at last check... and there are only a bare handful of situations which can be counted on a single hand where it clearly and unambiguously gets something which contradicts the rulebook.   That was the conclusion of a good dozen rules lawyers who went over it with a fine tooth comb just as it was released... we had some fun arguments on that.


Even the mystic adept bit... the ONLY thing it contradicts the rulebook on is the second paragraph where it invents limitations on adept powers that did not make it into the rules..  The first is fine... as an argument can be made that FOR ALL PURPOSES OF THE SKILL includes the force and whatnot.   It's ambiguous enough that you can't say it's clearly wrong though you can make an argument... it's not a conclusive one.  I'm not saying this to reopen this argument... merely to point out the length of some of the arguments which have occurred and that people do read it both ways.

You may not like the FAQ and a lot of it's answers... I know I don't.  But I'll defend AncientHistory and the time and effort he put into it.   Most of the people who spew this bullshit have no idea of exactly how bad the PRIOR FAQ... which WAS written for SR4 was.   The faq that is up is a SR4a FAQ... it is not a SR4 FAQ... thankfully that one is dead and buried (now that one was an utter mess which completely ignored the rulebok left right  and center!).

[Wildcard]

[citation needed]

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

As for the rest of your comments... the point is the rulebook states it outright that there are no ranged astral weapons (excepting mana spalls and mana critter powers).

Again no. It stated no known. We aren't talking about if something is in the rules but if it is allowed/not disallowed by the rules. They left it vague, and the argument can be raised.

All right, try this on for size: The vagueness of the rule statement was done deliberately to allow GMs to decide if someone has invented what is literally a Magic Bullet - a weapon that can be used at range in astral combat.  In regards to canonical Shadowrun, it has been stated in previous editions - and please do remember, we are operating with a system that has a persistent background and an essentially stable conceptualization of the world, however differently the crunchy bits to explain that world happen to be.

Previous editions have stated categorically that no, there are no ranged combat options for astral space, outside of spells or critter powers; a bow adept cannot shoot someone at range with a magic arrow, etc. etc.  This made it into the 4th editions as 'no known', so as to give GMs the option of including those at their tables.

If, at your table, you want to have them, that's your option; keep it at your table.  In the Shadowrun standard canon, however, they don't exist.  Period.