[Thazar]

Fairly new to SR4 and I have a question on spell drain.

When a spell is cast does it matter or not how many hits they have for the drain test?  Some of my info in the book just says to use the Drain Value listed for the spell.  Most spells list Drain Value as F/2 +/-X.  But some of the samples in the books say net hits also add to this number.  But the FAQ says that the comments of removing hits from casting a spell to make drain easier is a typo from older editions?  At this point I am confused.

So if a mage casts Manabolt at Force 6 and has 4 hits on the spellcasting test.  Is the Drain going to be 3 (Force 6/2) or is it going to be 7 (Force 6/2)+4 Hits.  I know he would roll Willpower + Logic dice to resist the drain.  (Or something other then logic depending on tradition.)

One rule seams to make magic pretty easy to resist overall unless you are casting one of the spells where the +/-X is +3, 4, 5, or larger.  While the other rule could make a spell with some solid casting hits almost certain to put the mage to sleep by filling his stun boxs.

Thanks for the help.

[Mirikon]

When resisting drain from a manabolt, the drain is always (Force/2), unless you're using that ridiculously craptacular optional rule that others will likely mention. If you look in the book, all the spells except Heal have a drain value of (Force/2)+X. Spellcasting hits have zilch to do with resisting drain. You could roll all sixes on the spellcasting test, and it won't do a thing to resist drain. And yes, 3 Drain doesn't sound like much, but when you're only rolling 8-12 dice to resist it, then you're at the edge of probabilities there. And with higher drain spells, casting them at high Force becomes a lot like shooting yourself in the foot.

[Blue_Lion]

The optional rule is intened to make non direct combat spells more apealing. Direct combat spells have less drain and more relible damage than elemntal spells. The optional rule makes drain on direct combat spells varbile but with more relible damage. While indrect combat spells whould be less relible damage but more relible drain.

It kinda a balance thing since agaist most living targets indrect is horible compaired to drain.

[roflzor]

Im a new player to Shadowrun and I have some questions regarding use of Magic and Spellcasting tests.


If i red correctly you frist need to you choose a spell , then declare a force of the spell you are going to use after that roll D6 , and after that you need to resist drain with your att.

But  i need some clarifications about :

I use illusion spell - Bugs with force of 5 (my magic attribute is 5) my spellcasting dp is 9. so i throw 9 dice and en up with 3  hits. So my questions is : What will it be ?  I mean do you sum the force + n et hits for the threshold?

[Kiirnodel]

One rule seams to make magic pretty easy to resist overall unless you are casting one of the spells where the +/-X is +3, 4, 5, or larger.  While the other rule could make a spell with some solid casting hits almost certain to put the mage to sleep by filling his stun boxs.

The optional rule adds the net hits to the drain. You also get to choose how many net hits to use for this purpose, with the unused hits not adding to the drain. This means that direct damage spells that are not fully resisted (remember, if they beat you on the opposed roll no damage is dealt) will deal the extra damage to both the caster and the target.

But it is still an optional rule, nothing says you have to use it. Depending on the style of the game, and the amount of magic being thrown around, it may or may not be appropriate to your game.

[All4BigGuns]

One rule seams to make magic pretty easy to resist overall unless you are casting one of the spells where the +/-X is +3, 4, 5, or larger.  While the other rule could make a spell with some solid casting hits almost certain to put the mage to sleep by filling his stun boxs.

The optional rule adds the net hits to the drain. You also get to choose how many net hits to use for this purpose, with the unused hits not adding to the drain. This means that direct damage spells that are not fully resisted (remember, if they beat you on the opposed roll no damage is dealt) will deal the extra damage to both the caster and the target.

But it is still an optional rule, nothing says you have to use it. Depending on the style of the game, and the amount of magic being thrown around, it may or may not be appropriate to your game.

And don't even consider using it unless you want to basically be telling your players, "Hey over-cast your spells all the time. You'd be stupid not to."

[Blue_Lion]

If it is all a group of new players the optional rule might make things more complicated for them.

But the rule does not apply to illtionary spells. It is on page 204 under direct combat spells.
It deals primary with two issues.

1- mages over casting spells for lots of damage because they will not take damage with stun spells and such. A force 8 stun bolt deals 3 boxes drain resited with 10-11 dice odds are fairly good they will not take any drain as 1-3 dice removes a box. Now if you add the optional rule then it could be 5 boxes or more of drain meaning the mage will think about it more.

2- makes taking indrect spells more usefull as direct damage spells can still take out drones and such. It is what +3 drain for elemntal spells without the rule they are not verry good choice for the  risk.

[All4BigGuns]

If it is all a group of new players the optional rule might make things more complicated for them.

But the rule does not apply to illtionary spells. It is on page 204 under direct combat spells.
It deals primary with two issues.
1- mages over casting spells for lots of damage because they will not take damage with stun spells and such. A force 8 stun bolt deals 3 boxes drain resited with 10-11 dice odds are fairly good they will not take any drain as 1-3 dice removes a box. Now if you add the optional rule then it could be 5 boxes or more of drain meaning the mage will think about it more.

No. As has been pointed out by multiple people multiple times, it would just lead to over casting more as a mage would be able to get the same damage for less drain (you don't have to actually apply the hits to the damage).

Force 5 Stun Bolt applying 4 hits to damage == 9S DV and 5 Drain
Force 9 Stun Bolt applying no hits to damage == 9S DV and 3 Drain

Kinda stupid not to do the over cast with the optional rule in place.

[Blue_Lion]

If it is all a group of new players the optional rule might make things more complicated for them.

But the rule does not apply to illtionary spells. It is on page 204 under direct combat spells.
It deals primary with two issues.
1- mages over casting spells for lots of damage because they will not take damage with stun spells and such. A force 8 stun bolt deals 3 boxes drain resited with 10-11 dice odds are fairly good they will not take any drain as 1-3 dice removes a box. Now if you add the optional rule then it could be 5 boxes or more of drain meaning the mage will think about it more.

No. As has been pointed out by multiple people multiple times, it would just lead to over casting more as a mage would be able to get the same damage for less drain (you don't have to actually apply the hits to the damage).

Force 5 Stun Bolt applying 4 hits to damage == 9S DV and 5 Drain
Force 9 Stun Bolt applying no hits to damage == 9S DV and 3 Drain

Kinda stupid not to do the over cast with the optional rule in place.

All the GMs I have seen use it either do not allow to with hould hits or go off net hits rolled not thouse applied.
Granted that is only 3 GMs, they run it that way to make inderect spells more apealing despite the fact they are worse damage dealers over all.

[All4BigGuns]

Well that's a house rule in conjunction with the optional rule. Doesn't change that the optional rule basically punishes a character for being good at what he should be good at.

[Mithlas]

I seem to recall this being a standard rule in SR4 before the annivarsary edition - would not using this now optional rule really be unbalancing to magic with the high drain code of elemental spells? Would using it encourage indirect spells?

[Mirikon]

I seem to recall this being a standard rule in SR4 before the annivarsary edition - would not using this now optional rule really be unbalancing to magic with the high drain code of elemental spells? Would using it encourage indirect spells?

It was a standard rule in the first PDF version, and was later changed to an optional rule.

[Blue_Lion]

I seem to recall this being a standard rule in SR4 before the annivarsary edition - would not using this now optional rule really be unbalancing to magic with the high drain code of elemental spells? Would using it encourage indirect spells?

The way it was applied when I played 2 mages one that always cast direct spells and 1 that cast inderect spells. The inderect spell mage using elemental spells often took less drain than the direct mage. The joke was the dirct mages first attack takes out both the mage and the enemy so he was a one fight wiz. While the mage with inderct spells (smoke if I recall) was able to get off more spells in combat. Also the spell choice tended to be difrent the inderct mage used allot more than just combat spells to help out with fights so he was the flex mage. His tatics in combat changed more than just attacking, he was more aware of the drain and whould intenaly take physical damage drain when he was at half or more of his stun boxes. (He whould short while later use heal to clear up some physical boxes.)

Without the forced penalty the mages tend to mana ball/stun ball every thing tatic tends to just burn threw enemies boxes. with the mage taking little drain if any, while focing the penalty the direct damage mage after a few months switched tatics and started learning new spells and moved away from his first action just drop a big nuke.

[Glyph]

I seem to recall this being a standard rule in SR4 before the annivarsary edition - would not using this now optional rule really be unbalancing to magic with the high drain code of elemental spells? Would using it encourage indirect spells?

No, it was briefly a standard rule in the earliest .pdf's of the SR4A rules, but was never in the basic SR4 rules.  Using this ill-wrought optional rule doesn't encourage indirect spells, because indirect spells still suck.  It does encourage overcasting, spirits, and mental manipulation spells - all of which are more potentially unbalancing than an average mage having a good, effective, low-Drain workhorse spell.

[Thazar]

Thanks everyone.  I now have enough information to get something set up for my group as well as understanding where the conflicting information I was finding in some of the books.

I will keep it simple and just use the drain as listed for each spell and move on.