Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Unahim on <08-11-13/0750:33>
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Throughout the Matrix chapter, marks are referred to as sort of setting your access level. At 1 mark you're a registered user, at 3 that's potentially up to Administrator level. One would assume that people operating computer systems inside a facility would have 3 marks for this purpose, generally making them able to operate the system like it was designed without too much hassle. Common uses for this that I can see is the activation of cameras, alarms, opening doors, etc...
So why do I, when I have 3 marks on such a system, need to take Sleaze actions to do such simple things? The system should recognize me as an authorized user and simply comply, should it not? When I order a device to do something it was designed to do, having the correct user privileges, what kind of illegal activity ripples is GOD picking up on? As far as the system knows, all I'm doing is kosher. It can't possibly be letting its actual legitimate users jump through the hoop of rolling Sleaze actions against its Firewall, so why me?
Even more hilarious is the fact that if that system is linked up to a gun turret, I can use the turret to shoot everyone nearby remotely with it being a Data Processing action, because there's a dicepool for it. But don't you dare open a door or eject a clip from a gun! Logic!
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To make Matrix combat not boring. Also, the administrator can notice an unauthorized admin account and try to lock it out.
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I don't know if i remember this correctly, but didn't the admin have 4 marks (ownership) on his stuff?
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No, it says the Owner of a device is quite often not the person using it, and only 1 person can own it. Usually the owner is the Corporation that issued their people the gear, not the guy using the gun. Not to mention the fact that people working in shifts pretty much denies the option of them being the "4 mark" owners, since you can only have 1 and logically speaking multiple people will do the same job at different times of the day/week.
And SoulGambit, we're not really talking about Matrix combat at all right here. If I got 3 marks, all the tests and stuff already happened. And as I said, I -can- start using all their remote turrets to shoot stuff up, but I can't open a simple door without hacking. It makes no sense.
Also, you can notice marks on a device, but not whom they belong to. Any device that's used by a great many people (and a security door probably qualifies) would likely have dozens of marks. They'd have to get quite lucky to just happen to first make a Matrix Perception check near the marks, and then notice my marks amidst all the ones there, and then realise they haven't seen those before to boot.
Suppose I get some inside source to use Invite Mark on me three times. Then I -still- have to hack to use the privileges granted to me. It's inane.
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Yeah, this bothered me about marks too. The way the matrix actions work suggest they are an illegal thing hackers do, but the fluff suggests that's how all identification works. So how do legitimate users accomplish anything with all these resistance tests all the time?
The other thing I don't get is that there is no bonus for having more marks than you need. Shouldn't it be easier to do something that needs 1 mark if you have 3?
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Yeah, kinda like how you get higher DV on certain matrix attacks per Mark. It's odd how you get more benefit from them when outright trying to destroy the system than when you're trying to use it.
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so, two things:
you can always use the control device action with your data processing limit instead of sleaze to force a device that you have marks on to do things without invoking sleaze. i'm pretty sure this is how one would accomplish simple tasks that you are authorized to do. for example, invoking simple action (send message) on a host to make them send you a file you can later try to crack seems legit to me.
as far as doing more damage in matrix combat, that also makes sense. it's a lot easier to install malicious code that does real damage to the system with superuser access than it is as a guest user. think of it as being able to rewrite /src instead of only getting to rewrite /users/n00b/src.
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so, two things:
you can always use the control device action with your data processing limit instead of sleaze to force a device that you have marks on to do things without invoking sleaze. i'm pretty sure this is how one would accomplish simple tasks that you are authorized to do. for example, invoking simple action (send message) on a host to make them send you a file you can later try to crack seems legit to me.
as far as doing more damage in matrix combat, that also makes sense. it's a lot easier to install malicious code that does real damage to the system with superuser access than it is as a guest user. think of it as being able to rewrite /src instead of only getting to rewrite /users/n00b/src.
It says you use Sleaze when doing actions that do not have dicepools normally associated with it.
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send message is annotated as a "data processing" action though, so i think that's somewhat ambiguous. but it's pretty stupid if it's intended for you to have to sleaze a send message action when you have marks, agreed, not least because you could never send a message from a device you had marks on without a cyberdeck.
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Maybe Send Message would work, I don't really know. It's used to command Drones to do stuff at least, but this sentence in Command Device:
If there is no test associated with the action you want the device to perform (such as unlocking a maglock or ejecting a clip from a pistol), you must succeed in an Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall test to perform the action.
Has me in serious doubt, as that'd fall under opening doors and stuff, potentially.
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hmm maybe the reason you have to hack with 3 marks is because your covering your tracks? For instance your hacking a server with only 4 other 3 mark presences, you get yours to 3. You still have to hack through simple actions so the network/spider doesn't notice the fact that there are 5 three mark presences and flags it? But thats just my take on it.
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hmm maybe the reason you have to hack with 3 marks is because your covering your tracks? For instance your hacking a server with only 4 other 3 mark presences, you get yours to 3. You still have to hack through simple actions so the network/spider doesn't notice the fact that there are 5 three mark presences and flags it? But thats just my take on it.
That would tie in to failing the sleaze alerting them.
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Without the access codes, marks aren't going to help you Crack File (or other Attack action). The host assumes that someone with 3 marks also knows the password specific to the file. Even with 3 marks, when you start brute forcing a file (or a door, or whatever), the host knows you're doing something that you shouldn't be doing.
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So they're having everyone remember and input codes for every single thing, up to and including turning the lights in a room on and off? That seems like an enormous amount of hoop to jump through for Corporation who are stated as "having confidence in their Wireless matrix security."
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So they're having everyone remember and input codes for every single thing, up to and including turning the lights in a room on and off? That seems like an enormous amount of hoop to jump through for Corporation who are stated as "having confidence in their Wireless matrix security."
I would be surprised if lights in a specific room were encrypted--I don't think many corps would spend their money that way. The text from Spoof Command makes it clear that having a mark doesn't actually make you an authorized user, it just makes it possible to trick the device/host into thinking you're an authorized user. Without legitimate passcodes, you're faking it no matter how many marks you generate. If marks were actually truly authenticating, every decker run would be "Hack on the Fly while outside the host x3, done."
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I would be surprised if lights in a specific room were encrypted--I don't think many corps would spend their money that way.
Yet by the rules, a legitimate 3 mark user has to Sleaze to get them on or off.
The text from Spoof Command makes it clear that having a mark doesn't actually make you an authorized user, it just makes it possible to trick the device/host into thinking you're an authorized user. Without legitimate passcodes, you're faking it no matter how many marks you generate. If marks were actually truly authenticating, every decker run would be "Hack on the Fly while outside the host x3, done."
You spoof a device’s owner’s identity, making the
device think that your command is a legitimate one from
its owner. You need one mark on the icon you are imitating;
you do not need a mark on the target. The opposing
dice roll is still based on the target, though. This trick
only works on devices and agents, not IC, sprites, hosts,
personas, or any other icons.
Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.
Rules text:
A Matrix authentication recognition key, or mark if
you’re not a fan of rattling off fancy technological nomenclature,
is how the Matrix keeps track of which
personas have access to which devices, files, hosts,
and other personas.
The encryption you're talking about -is- the Mark, that's how the Matrix keeps track of what you can and cannot do; however, under the current rules, having 3 marks on a Device lets you do... nothing, unless you hack. So how do legitimate users get around?
Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it. The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.
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Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.
Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll. Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll. Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.
To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good. Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file. Or whatever. But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function. An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.
Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it.
What Shadowrunner is interested in legitimate activity? 8)
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach? He'll never be a legitimate user. He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking. Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has. Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.
The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.
I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll? log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS. Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).
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Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.
Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll. Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll. Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.
Again, no, this doesn't work as you claim.
If you are the device’s owner, or the device’s owner has given you permission to jump into the device, you don’t need to make a test.
Jump Into Rigged Device has a specific caveat preventing that, but it is the -only- thing that does. For everything else, Marks are what decides if you can or cannot do it.
To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good. Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file. Or whatever. But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function. An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.
What if I use social engineering to get 3 Marks on a host? What rules do I use?
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach? He'll never be a legitimate user. He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking. Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has. Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.
My Technomancer with Puppeteer can Invite Mark on herself without accrueing any OS, and by all logic she has achieved the same legitimacy as anyone else. The marks aren't "fake", they were put there in the same way the truly legitimate people get them. Invite Mark is how everyone who's not a Decker gets their marks, after all.
The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.
I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll? log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS. Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).
If you start controlling stuff in weird ways, the enemy's security personnel/deckers/riggers will pick up on it and start vying for control, leading to a matrix battle-it-out. Where's the problem? Also note that under the current rules, I -can- get 3 marks on a Host and then start using all remote turrets in that facility without making a Sleaze test. It's only the things like opening maglocks that the system would have a problem with :p Also, unless you find a device to connect through, I do not believe you can get marks on a Host from the outside at all. (as per the rules that you can't affect the inside form the outside, and vica versa) Else that one decker guy wouldn't have had to go through a maglock with a physical connection in that example text on page 224, so getting Marks on the host will involve being physically close, and in that case your repeated attempts can and will get noticed and security will probably be prowling the perimeter in the meat. That'll be bad for your Decker.
So no, even with this change the matrix would work fine and there'd be plenty of battles, both in the matrix after you start poltergeisting a facility, and in the meat when they try to find you. It'd just make actual sense, that's all :p
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Again, no, this doesn't work as you claim.
How? I'm attempting to illustrate that not all marks are created equal. There seems to be a difference between the authorized user's 3 marks and the decker's 3 marks here.
What if I use social engineering to get 3 Marks on a host? What rules do I use?
Do you mean kidnapping a corp for his security codes (eqv.)? In that case, you're in and you can do whatever his login could normally do without needing a roll. Obviously, it's a GM call to say when you've overstepped things. Most places will let a single user lock a door, but opening up a MMG might require cross verification.
My Technomancer with Puppeteer can Invite Mark on herself without accrueing any OS, and by all logic she has achieved the same legitimacy as anyone else. The marks aren't "fake", they were put there in the same way the truly legitimate people get them. Invite Mark is how everyone who's not a Decker gets their marks, after all.
Yes, but legitimate marks are associated with people with extensive files in HR, who are logged in from a particular terminal, and who are also on the clock during their session. Deckers shouldn't be where they are and hosts always know this. This is why simply sitting around with 3 marks generates OS; you can't completely erase your footprint. The incongruity between authentic marks and decker-generated marks must logically exist because a decker cannot log into a host and spend 5 hours deleting spam emails.
If you start controlling stuff in weird ways, the enemy's security personnel/deckers/riggers will pick up on it and start vying for control, leading to a matrix battle-it-out. Where's the problem? Also note that under the current rules, I -can- get 3 marks on a Host and then start using all remote turrets in that facility without making a Sleaze test. It's only the things like opening maglocks that the system would have a problem with :p Also, unless you find a device to connect through, I do not believe you can get marks on a Host from the outside at all. (as per the rules that you can't affect the inside form the outside, and vica versa) Else that one decker guy wouldn't have had to go through a maglock with a physical connection in that example text on page 224, so getting Marks on the host will involve being physically close, and in that case your repeated attempts can and will get noticed and security will probably be prowling the perimeter in the meat. That'll be bad for your Decker.
Ideally, yes, but not every building has a dedicated security rigger. I assumed the guy on page 224 jacked into the maglock to avoid Noise (he seems like he's in a busy commercial area), which is a very good reason to be on-site, but certainly the bank's host exists in the matrix. It would be hard for customers to do any online banking or for employees to work remotely if this wasn't true. You can get marks from the other side of the planet if you can fight through the Noise.
Really, this discussion boils down to "do you find a game-balancing mechanic plausible?" For me, that means thinking about decker marks as something different. It could be something else for you, or it could end up that there's no explanation that you'll accept and you houserule Control Device. That's fine too and I imagine in games with that houserule, the extra power a decker has will be balanced somehow by the GM--maybe spiders are simply more common. It's Shadowrun--attempts to overexplain will often end in frustration.
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I just find it curious that there's no caveat anywhere in the book separating legitimate user's marks from a decker's. The book literally just says "This is how the matrix keeps track of authorisations and permissions." That seems clear cut enough, but the rules just simply don't support it. Outside of 1 specific matrix action (jumping in) the rules don't support your interpretation either, though. The Control Device thing would be a houserule, but pruely by RAW so is considering decker's marks different from legitimate ones.
Also, people doing their banking online would enter the Host. That's an extra step your hacker needs to take, and once he's in there he's susceptible to being noticed by any spiders or Patrol IC around, so yeah he could keep doing it, but every time he risks being spotted and then the facility will be on high alert, whether he relogs or not.
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I will absolutely grant you that chunks of the book, and the Matrix chapter in particular, could have used some better editing. My "decker marks v. authentic marks" reading is largely based on inference (notably, p. 231)--certain things don't make sense if they aren't distinguished, even if that is never explicitly spelled out.
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Alright, I think I can help clear this up.
I subscribe to the theory that having Marks grants you appropriate access. That's why you need 1 mark to edit a file or attempt to crack it. A normal wageslave user would have that 1 mark.
1) Control Device only works on Devices and a host is not a Device. Thus:
1.1) You can't control guns through the host / system. You need to have Marks on the guns themselves and then they will accept appropriate level commands, depending on how many Marks you have. Just like a normal user with properly granted Marks could.
2) The rule to use Elec. Warfare vs. Int + FW for when no test is available (p.238) works if you understand point 1 above. You are not (as you would have in SR4) telling the Lock/Door/Ventilation system to do something based on your privileges on the host. Instead, you control the Device itself. The Maglock/Keypad/Cardreader itself is built to work a specific way (use card, punch in number etc.) and you are trying to bypass that. In order to have at least some gameplay happen, you roll to see if you make it or not, despite potentially having 3 Marks on it. If you want to rationalize why that is, maybe it's because the command is not coming from the right source. You could have (if you're good enough) also just gotten 1 Mark on the host controlling the devices and then spoofed the command. That would then also have been a roll.
Either way, I don't think there needs to be a new level of "Decker Marks" that are weaker than normal Marks.
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Why does a decker with 3 marks who goes afk in a host still accumulate OS? Presumably an authenticated user with 3 marks can spend all day in the host.
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Why does a decker with 3 marks who goes afk in a host still accumulate OS? Presumably an authenticated user with 3 marks can spend all day in the host.
But a real user doesn't CARE about overwatch score. The GOD will show up, see that they're authenticated and move along. Think of it as a periodic check in or a random traffic stop.
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Marks have no bearing on Overwatch Score. The fact that you did something illegal is what matters. The Matrix is built to defend itself and expose illegal activity. As such, the ticket starts running the moment you do something illegal.
Reminds me of the Matrix movies where, as long as they were logged in, the Agents would send real-world machines after them. You could only run around and cause mayhem versus the Matrix for so long before the gig was up.
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Why does a decker with 3 marks who goes afk in a host still accumulate OS? Presumably an authenticated user with 3 marks can spend all day in the host.
But a real user doesn't CARE about overwatch score. The GOD will show up, see that they're authenticated and move along. Think of it as a periodic check in or a random traffic stop.
But it isn't a random traffic stop. If it worked the way you just described it, every single Matix user would face convergence multiple times a day. GOD is powerful, but it certainly isn't that powerful. The OS clock start ticking once you perform either an Attack or Sleaze action. You likely need to do one of those to get into the host in the first place. Normal users cannot perform Attack or Sleaze actions, so there's no reason for OS to generate, so GOD would never think they somehow have a false positive. Convergence never ends with GOD apologizing for the interruption.
Another example: Joe Wageslave is in middle management (2 mark access) and is working on a work-related file on his terminal. He makes some changes to the Johnson account and hits save. This is an Edit File matrix action. Does he now need to roll Computer + Logic v. Firewall + Intuition? Of course not. But a decker making the exact same modifications to the Johnson account does have to make that roll, even with 2 marks. Why would this be the case if all marks are equal?
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The way I see it is, every time the decker attempts to do something, he has to prove to. The device he has the authority to do so... Since his marks aren't exactly 'real', he needs to roll.
If the security rigger, who is the legitimate user at 3 marks tells a camera to follow someone, the system goes "who are you?.... Oh Walter Whosit. You can do that."
When a decker tries the same thing, the camera again asks "who are you?" and the decker has to "prove" he can do so... Otherwise the camera goes "um, you seem to have clearance... But I can't find you in the log....begin system check"
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I thought the Overwatch score rising over time was because you leave tiny little matrix scars when you do illegal actions, and over time, the GOD algorithms that analyze them get more info? Something like a cloud-computing version of hunters tracking prey, or one of those things from Numb3rs.
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I thought the Overwatch score rising over time was because you leave tiny little matrix scars when you do illegal actions, and over time, the GOD algorithms that analyze them get more info? Something like a cloud-computing version of hunters tracking prey, or one of those things from Numb3rs.
Essentially, yeah. But once you perform an illegal action (Attack/Sleaze)--even if it's only once--it starts ticking and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Without stealing passcodes, it's essentially impossible to enter a host without performing an illegal action, so deckers always risk being discovered. You can browse the matrix all day, but once you start placing illegal marks, something somewhere starts looking for you.
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The way I see it is, every time the decker attempts to do something, he has to prove to. The device he has the authority to do so... Since his marks aren't exactly 'real', he needs to roll.
If the security rigger, who is the legitimate user at 3 marks tells a camera to follow someone, the system goes "who are you?.... Oh Walter Whosit. You can do that."
When a decker tries the same thing, the camera again asks "who are you?" and the decker has to "prove" he can do so... Otherwise the camera goes "um, you seem to have clearance... But I can't find you in the log....begin system check"
If the Host/Devices had that kind of potential, why wouldn't they constantly be searching for Marks that didn't have log files to go with them, and deleting them/raising the alarm? Why doesn't the entire system go "You've got a Mark? Who are you? Can't find you in the log..." all day long, constantly? It would barely take up any computing power.
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If the Host/Devices had that kind of potential, why wouldn't they constantly be searching for Marks that didn't have log files to go with them, and deleting them/raising the alarm? Why doesn't the entire system go "You've got a Mark? Who are you? Can't find you in the log..." all day long, constantly? It would barely take up any computing power.
Given the thousands upon thousands of devices in a typical host's WAN, having it constantly search for and scrub unauthorized marks would be really inefficient. It's far easier to simply have a handshake protocol when a device is actually used, since only tiny fraction of devices are going to be in-use at any given moment. Patrol IC serves as a "dumb" first line of defense.
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Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.
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If the Host/Devices had that kind of potential, why wouldn't they constantly be searching for Marks that didn't have log files to go with them, and deleting them/raising the alarm? Why doesn't the entire system go "You've got a Mark? Who are you? Can't find you in the log..." all day long, constantly? It would barely take up any computing power.
Given the thousands upon thousands of devices in a typical host's WAN, having it constantly search for and scrub unauthorized marks would be really inefficient. It's far easier to simply have a handshake protocol when a device is actually used, since only tiny fraction of devices are going to be in-use at any given moment. Patrol IC serves as a "dumb" first line of defense.
Really, we could do this sort of thing with programs that exist today, in organizations that have no less employees/devices. It's as simple as having a program that returns an error whenever there's a Mark without an authorization code connected to it. I think the Matrix in general should be more about hacking for access accounts and then using those accounts to do stuff, rather than hacking for every little action, because it just gets really confusing, as this thread illustrates.
Even the people on the same "side" (don't want to make this more of a versus thing than it is :p) aren't exactly on the same line. It's hard to put forth a conclusive ruling like that.
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I'm not sure how simple it is - given fading etc- but decker/Technomancer teams seem to have a lot of synergy in this system.
slipped.
re:unahim. You can't really say "oh we do this today" because nothing in our current computing model accounts for a global wireless full sensory VR system with DNI interfaces. We literally have no idea what the "back end" of the matrix looks like.
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Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.
Technomancers solve all sorts of Matrix-related problems 8)
A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.
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Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.
Technomancers solve all sorts of Matrix-related problems 8)
A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.
Every decker should get themselves a pocket technomancer ^^ Hell, Complex Forms don't require proximity to sustain, so there could be a Technomancer somewhere handing out Static Veil's to Deckers at a comfortable price all day. Could probably sustain 3-4 (with 1 running on focused concentration) before it gets too hard. More if a Sprite helps out with the Threading.
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Also, isn't there actually a simple way to avoid the over-time increase: have a technomancer with you that uses Static Veil on you? In the event that they perform any illegal actions themselves, they can just Static Veil themselves, too.
Technomancers solve all sorts of Matrix-related problems 8)
A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.
illegal MATRIX actions. Resonance actions don't generate OS whether they're legal or not.
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A side note, Static Veil just works against the long-term accrual of OS (so unlike deckers, they can, in fact, hang out in a host all day), performing illegal actions still gives you OS as normal.
As Apple would say: "There's a Complex Form for that". Cleaner at level 1 lowers your OS by 1, takes a Combat Turn of sustaining it to take effect, with 11 Fading Resist Dice gives about 0.0868 Drain on average, and with Computers 3, Resonance 6, and a -2 from sustaining Static Veil, has a 97.4% chance of succeeding.
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I feel like Edit File, Control Device, and Send Message can take care of most of your basic needs. None of those are necessarily Sleaze actions and can be done without issue. Edit File is disgusting, by the way. You want to hack a turret? You can either put 3 marks on it to control it directly, or you can invert its Friend/Foe indicator via Edit File using only a single mark. Or just blind the turret's camera by adding static to the sensors. If you want to hack a door? You could control device, or you could Edit the files where the password is stored, or just send the message to the door to open.
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I feel like Edit File, Control Device, and Send Message can take care of most of your basic needs. None of those are necessarily Sleaze actions and can be done without issue. Edit File is disgusting, by the way. You want to hack a turret? You can either put 3 marks on it to control it directly, or you can invert its Friend/Foe indicator via Edit File using only a single mark. Or just blind the turret's camera by adding static to the sensors. If you want to hack a door? You could control device, or you could Edit the files where the password is stored, or just send the message to the door to open.
Thinking like this is why I love deckers. Doors (or at least important ones) are probably encrypted, so I'd ask for a Crack File roll of you didn't have the marks for Control Device, but using Edit File to switch a binary setting (do I shoot guys with a corp ID? [y/n]) can be all sorts of fun.
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Heh, now I want to get karma so I can develop the Hacking skills of my Dronomancer ^^ And if I die I'll just go Decker.
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I feel like Edit File, Control Device, and Send Message can take care of most of your basic needs. None of those are necessarily Sleaze actions and can be done without issue. Edit File is disgusting, by the way. You want to hack a turret? You can either put 3 marks on it to control it directly, or you can invert its Friend/Foe indicator via Edit File using only a single mark. Or just blind the turret's camera by adding static to the sensors. If you want to hack a door? You could control device, or you could Edit the files where the password is stored, or just send the message to the door to open.
Thinking like this is why I love deckers. Doors (or at least important ones) are probably encrypted, so I'd ask for a Crack File roll of you didn't have the marks for Control Device, but using Edit File to switch a binary setting (do I shoot guys with a corp ID? [y/n]) can be all sorts of fun.
Yeah, totally had a hacker do this with a MAD detector he accidentally walked through before turning it off. Rather than try and gun his way out of it, he stayed cool and AR hacked it with the new orders "Alert on presence of all metal" instead of "Alert on presence of X amount of Metal" basically jacking up it's sensitivity to beep with the zipper in your pants. Suddenly his pat down was not the only one that needed to be done (Over a dozen people had walked through as soon as he had, it didn't take long for the officers to suspect that something was wrong with the machine. But the tampering wasn't found out until much later) and officers gave a lot less of a thorough search before just letting him walk on his merry way.
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Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.
Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll. Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll. Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.
To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good. Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file. Or whatever. But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function. An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.
Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it.
What Shadowrunner is interested in legitimate activity? 8)
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach? He'll never be a legitimate user. He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking. Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has. Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.
The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.
I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll? log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS. Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).
Agree with Kincaid.
As I understand the current hacking, the hacker never reaches the level a legitmate user does. The legitimate user, with the correct passcodes etc doesnt have to make certain tests, it just works. The hacker is continually faking it, and temporary marks are just an indication of how well he is duping the system at that moment. The hacker is making continual tests to maintain and achieve further effects he desires bec he has to sweat to keep up his techno fakery ruse - the system is continually checking/trying to catch him out. All the time his OS score is rising, and the clock is always against him .... reminiscent of The Matrix movie (which i love by the way, well number 1 and 2, at least). That's how i understand the basic hacking concept to work. You are never legit, you are constantly faking/tricking the system, the system is constantly trying to catch you out, and you are always time limited (Technos seem to have certain exceptions to OS).
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As far as marks making you legit, here is the description of Patrol IC from p.251.
Patrol IC acts more like an agent than other intrusion countermeasures. Its job is to patrol a host, scanning people’s marks and looking for illegal activity using the Matrix Perception action on all targets in the host. While the act of placing a mark is an illegal activity, the act of simply having a mark is not. Once you have the mark, you are considered a legitimate user. Patrol IC has no attack, but it shares its information with its parent host. Since the Patrol IC doesn’t use Attack actions, it doesn’t take Matrix damage when it fails. Most hosts have Patrol IC and keep it running all the time.
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Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.
Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll. Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll. Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.
To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good. Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file. Or whatever. But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function. An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.
Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it.
What Shadowrunner is interested in legitimate activity? 8)
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach? He'll never be a legitimate user. He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking. Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has. Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.
The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.
I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll? log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS. Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).
Agree with Kincaid.
As I understand the current hacking, the hacker never reaches the level a legitmate user does. The legitimate user, with the correct passcodes etc doesnt have to make certain tests, it just works. The hacker is continually faking it, and temporary marks are just an indication of how well he is duping the system at that moment. The hacker is making continual tests to maintain and achieve further effects he desires bec he has to sweat to keep up his techno fakery ruse - the system is continually checking/trying to catch him out. All the time his OS score is rising, and the clock is always against him .... reminiscent of The Matrix movie (which i love by the way, well number 1 and 2, at least). That's how i understand the basic hacking concept to work. You are never legit, you are constantly faking/tricking the system, the system is constantly trying to catch you out, and you are always time limited (Technos seem to have certain exceptions to OS).
I just want to point out this entire argument falls apart when dealing with a technomancer that used puppetmaster to force invite mark.
The Technomancer is now a perfectly legal user with three legitimate marks (as far as the matrix is concerned), why wouldn't the tecnomancer then be able to edit/copy a file with no test?
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I feel like Edit File, Control Device, and Send Message can take care of most of your basic needs. None of those are necessarily Sleaze actions and can be done without issue. Edit File is disgusting, by the way. You want to hack a turret? You can either put 3 marks on it to control it directly, or you can invert its Friend/Foe indicator via Edit File using only a single mark. Or just blind the turret's camera by adding static to the sensors. If you want to hack a door? You could control device, or you could Edit the files where the password is stored, or just send the message to the door to open.
I dont think just editing a turret would do that... After your editing it will start shooting at everything after all, even features, plants, props, Tv screen... You have to do more than simple editing to rewrite a IFF algorithme.
And the turret camera is probably not it´s main aiming / identification device, a RFID tag reader is more sensible.
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As far as marks making you legit, here is the description of Patrol IC from p.251.
Patrol IC acts more like an agent than other intrusion countermeasures. Its job is to patrol a host, scanning people’s marks and looking for illegal activity using the Matrix Perception action on all targets in the host. While the act of placing a mark is an illegal activity, the act of simply having a mark is not. Once you have the mark, you are considered a legitimate user. Patrol IC has no attack, but it shares its information with its parent host. Since the Patrol IC doesn’t use Attack actions, it doesn’t take Matrix damage when it fails. Most hosts have Patrol IC and keep it running all the time.
hmmm u r considered legit by the patrol IC perhaps, i dunno? but u r not actually a legit user... bec u just arent. u rnot using the true passcode. u r faking it.
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Spoof Command makes the device think you are the OWNER of the Device, which is naturally much harder because the Owner is at the unreachable 4 Marks level. We're talking about registered, legitimate users here, not the owner. Only 1 person can be the Owner of a Device, but when talking about a secure facility many people will need to be able to access the commands and input orders to do their job. Your line of reasoning does not hold true. I'm also not talking about just 1 mark (at which point many advanced functions should rightfully be locked from you) I'm talking about having 3.
Jump Into Rigged Device (the corp owns the device, the security rigger is an authorized user) suggests that I am correct by virtue of the fact that it's an opposed roll. Under your theory, simply having 3 marks would be sufficient to perform the action without the roll. Presumably, the authorized rigger doesn't roll vs. Firewall + Willpower (does he use his own Willpower?) in this situation.
To a certain extent, marks exist simply as a game mechanic to make decking work a certain way, but for the sake of verisimilitude, think of it this way: PC generated marks (as opposed to host-generated marks) simply aren't as good. Maybe this is because they aren't stored in the host's "authorized user" file. Or whatever. But there is no scenario in which an authorized spider and a decker have precisely the same ease of function. An authorized user can Control Device no problem, but for me to attempt to slice a small piece off of the host's WAN, I need to have 3 marks and even then the host isn't going to go along willingly.
Understand: I'm not suggesting you should be able to do anything and everything with 3 Marks on a device, but as the rules currently are you can't do anything legitimate with it.
What Shadowrunner is interested in legitimate activity? 8)
I think of marks not as what sort of legitimate actions can my decker take, but rather what depths of illegitimacy can he reach? He'll never be a legitimate user. He can kind-of-sort-of fake the host out for a little bit, but the nature of decking is that sooner or later, the clock will start ticking. Maybe he'll send everything into reboot, log out and log back in to reset his OS, but he can't live in the host 24-7, no matter how many marks he has. Even doing nothing at all with 3 marks, he's going to accrue OS every 15 minutes.
The Control Device action, at least, should use Data Processing when you have 3 marks, not Sleaze. That still leaves every other matrix action wide open, and Control Device only deals with devices that interact with the meat (doors, lamps, locks, turrets, etc) so there'd be plenty of stuff to do besides plant 3 marks and be done with it. It's not that easy to get 3 Marks on a decent host anyway.
I understand the thinking here, but if Control Device didn't generate OS, a decker could get his 3 marks out side the host (fail a roll? log out and log right back in), enter the host and then perform DP actions that could literally kill the entire staff of the building without any risk of generating more OS. Presumably a spider shows up at some point, but it still throws the entire thing out of whack and goes against the design philosophy of matrix rolls being like meat rolls (in this case, opposed rolls to control something).
Agree with Kincaid.
As I understand the current hacking, the hacker never reaches the level a legitmate user does. The legitimate user, with the correct passcodes etc doesnt have to make certain tests, it just works. The hacker is continually faking it, and temporary marks are just an indication of how well he is duping the system at that moment. The hacker is making continual tests to maintain and achieve further effects he desires bec he has to sweat to keep up his techno fakery ruse - the system is continually checking/trying to catch him out. All the time his OS score is rising, and the clock is always against him .... reminiscent of The Matrix movie (which i love by the way, well number 1 and 2, at least). That's how i understand the basic hacking concept to work. You are never legit, you are constantly faking/tricking the system, the system is constantly trying to catch you out, and you are always time limited (Technos seem to have certain exceptions to OS).
I just want to point out this entire argument falls apart when dealing with a technomancer that used puppetmaster to force invite mark.
The Technomancer is now a perfectly legal user with three legitimate marks (as far as the matrix is concerned), why wouldn't the tecnomancer then be able to edit/copy a file with no test?
hmm the description of an invited mark = legit is problematic. they should change that, imo, focusing on marks as fake, temporary keys. that concept works best for me at least.
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But Invite Mark is also how you give permissions to your friends, how Corporations give their users their permissions, etc. It's not problematic at all, considering the effects of the changes made in the Matrix can still be noticed by Spiders or people in the meat, and then a witchhunt starts for the Technomancer messing with their stuff. 's all good.
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Alright, I think I can help clear this up.
I subscribe to the theory that having Marks grants you appropriate access. That's why you need 1 mark to edit a file or attempt to crack it. A normal wageslave user would have that 1 mark.
1) Control Device only works on Devices and a host is not a Device. Thus:
1.1) You can't control guns through the host / system. You need to have Marks on the guns themselves and then they will accept appropriate level commands, depending on how many Marks you have. Just like a normal user with properly granted Marks could.
2) The rule to use Elec. Warfare vs. Int + FW for when no test is available (p.238) works if you understand point 1 above. You are not (as you would have in SR4) telling the Lock/Door/Ventilation system to do something based on your privileges on the host. Instead, you control the Device itself. The Maglock/Keypad/Cardreader itself is built to work a specific way (use card, punch in number etc.) and you are trying to bypass that. In order to have at least some gameplay happen, you roll to see if you make it or not, despite potentially having 3 Marks on it. If you want to rationalize why that is, maybe it's because the command is not coming from the right source. You could have (if you're good enough) also just gotten 1 Mark on the host controlling the devices and then spoofed the command. That would then also have been a roll.
Either way, I don't think there needs to be a new level of "Decker Marks" that are weaker than normal Marks.
This is how we've been playing it. You need to get your mark on the individual devices, not the host to start controlling things.
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This is how we've been playing it. You need to get your mark on the individual devices, not the host to start controlling things.
Problem is that, by the rules, if you have 3 Marks on a Device -and- on the Host, you still can't make a Device automatically do actions it's supposed to be able to do without hacking. Even a door made to be opened through the Matrix with Command Device would require any legitimate user who tried to open it to hack, since there's no dicepool associated with it.
Say what you want about SR4's terrible hacking system, but at least user priviledges and accounts were clear in what you could or could not legitimately do with them.
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I just want to point out this entire argument falls apart when dealing with a technomancer that used puppetmaster to force invite mark.
The Technomancer is now a perfectly legal user with three legitimate marks (as far as the matrix is concerned), why wouldn't the tecnomancer then be able to edit/copy a file with no test?
I suspect the problem here is actually Puppetmaster--I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of rules clarification on this one down the road. But if you want technomancers to be simply better at certain things (and I'd be fine with that in my game, they have deficits elsewhere), this could be made to work. Expect your GM to send spiders, though.
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I just want to point out this entire argument falls apart when dealing with a technomancer that used puppetmaster to force invite mark.
The Technomancer is now a perfectly legal user with three legitimate marks (as far as the matrix is concerned), why wouldn't the tecnomancer then be able to edit/copy a file with no test?
I suspect the problem here is actually Puppetmaster--I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of rules clarification on this one down the road. But if you want technomancers to be simply better at certain things (and I'd be fine with that in my game, they have deficits elsewhere), this could be made to work. Expect your GM to send spiders, though.
The reason spiders or IC get sent is because the host tells them something is wrong. So if the host thinks your perfectly legit why would it contact or send IC? The only thing that's possible is if you have a spider that patrols and happens to notice what your doing.
I would really get pissed at a GM that just randomly decided that for some reason spiders decided that I was the one legit user it was going to check on every run.
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I just want to point out this entire argument falls apart when dealing with a technomancer that used puppetmaster to force invite mark.
The Technomancer is now a perfectly legal user with three legitimate marks (as far as the matrix is concerned), why wouldn't the tecnomancer then be able to edit/copy a file with no test?
I suspect the problem here is actually Puppetmaster--I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of rules clarification on this one down the road. But if you want technomancers to be simply better at certain things (and I'd be fine with that in my game, they have deficits elsewhere), this could be made to work. Expect your GM to send spiders, though.
The reason spiders or IC get sent is because the host tells them something is wrong. So if the host thinks your perfectly legit why would it contact or send IC? The only thing that's possible is if you have a spider that patrols and happens to notice what your doing.
I would really get pissed at a GM that just randomly decided that for some reason spiders decided that I was the one legit user it was going to check on every run.
Once the buildings guns fire start firing on its guards, I think that's reason enough for a spider to come check things out. More to the point, any GM who allows marks to work this way has reduced all matrix runs to a single roll, after which there's essentially no challenge or risk.
From a game design standpoint, is it reasonable to think the deckers have to make a series of contested rolls for just about every action they take in a host while technomancers can easily circumvent the majority of them "just because"? That plainly doesn't make sense. I imagine design saw Puppeteer as essentially Hack on the Fly/Brute Force in reverse. They arrive at the same end (the PC needs marks), but just in slightly different manners--the decker places marks, the technomancer asks for marks. In my games, the marks a technomancer gets are just as unreliable as the ones a decker gets for exactly the same reasons--the lack of a HR record, record of you entering the building/logging into a terminal, etc. No one gets to avoid rolling dice. Being smart might help you avoid rolling dice on occasion, or increase the number of dice you do roll, but no archetype simply forgoes with dice to perform the same tasks another archetype rolls dice for.
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The reason spiders or IC get sent is because the host tells them something is wrong. So if the host thinks your perfectly legit why would it contact or send IC? The only thing that's possible is if you have a spider that patrols and happens to notice what your doing.
I would really get pissed at a GM that just randomly decided that for some reason spiders decided that I was the one legit user it was going to check on every run.
Actually, this is what Patrol IC is meant to do. It can actually be out there checking when there is no alert.
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I just want to point out this entire argument falls apart when dealing with a technomancer that used puppetmaster to force invite mark.
The Technomancer is now a perfectly legal user with three legitimate marks (as far as the matrix is concerned), why wouldn't the tecnomancer then be able to edit/copy a file with no test?
I suspect the problem here is actually Puppetmaster--I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of rules clarification on this one down the road. But if you want technomancers to be simply better at certain things (and I'd be fine with that in my game, they have deficits elsewhere), this could be made to work. Expect your GM to send spiders, though.
The reason spiders or IC get sent is because the host tells them something is wrong. So if the host thinks your perfectly legit why would it contact or send IC? The only thing that's possible is if you have a spider that patrols and happens to notice what your doing.
I would really get pissed at a GM that just randomly decided that for some reason spiders decided that I was the one legit user it was going to check on every run.
Once the buildings guns fire start firing on its guards, I think that's reason enough for a spider to come check things out. More to the point, any GM who allows marks to work this way has reduced all matrix runs to a single roll, after which there's essentially no challenge or risk.
Obviously if something happens physically or even in the matrix that shouldn't be then the spider going to go looking. But if all you do is go there get marks on a file and copy the file and leave why would the spider even know if you had legit access to that file to copy?
The way the game is set up has some inconsistencies in the rules when dealing with marks. People are trying to explain it away and those explanations make sense when you only account for deckers but technomacers kinda blow that explanation out of the water. The big issue here is they need to make a difference for hacked marks and legit marks.
This doesn't just effect TM's. Say you as a decker have a face buddy of yours convince a tech in a corp to give you marks on a file that normally just would be impossible to hack. Sweet now you can just copy the file no test right? Wrong by the rules you still have to roll even though you have legit marks. By these rules no player can do any matrix action legit or not without GOD coming for them at some point. The exception being TM but only because they are not really doing matrix actions but resonance actions.
The reason spiders or IC get sent is because the host tells them something is wrong. So if the host thinks your perfectly legit why would it contact or send IC? The only thing that's possible is if you have a spider that patrols and happens to notice what your doing.
I would really get pissed at a GM that just randomly decided that for some reason spiders decided that I was the one legit user it was going to check on every run.
Actually, this is what Patrol IC is meant to do. It can actually be out there checking when there is no alert.
And I have no problem with patrolling IC or spiders I would just be pissed if where there was no patrols the GM decided to have to spider check just because hey the players a TM and hes getting away with something.
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Obviously if something happens physically or even in the matrix that shouldn't be then the spider going to go looking. But if all you do is go there get marks on a file and copy the file and leave why would the spider even know if you had legit access to that file to copy?
All of this operates under the assumption that the marks a TM gets are inherently different from the marks a decker generates. While this is certainly one reading of things, it is by no means the only reading. Indeed, if you factor in design elements like game balance and parallel rules (which seems to be a big thing in 5e), there seems to be reason to conclude that decker marks and TM marks are, or at least should be, the same. My interpretation is, obviously, also an interpretation. But my interpretation is grounded in the context of the game as a whole. I don't see the contextual support for the TM marks are "real" line of thinking.
The way the game is set up has some inconsistencies in the rules when dealing with marks. People are trying to explain it away and those explanations make sense when you only account for deckers but technomacers kinda blow that explanation out of the water. The big issue here is they need to make a difference for hacked marks and legit marks.
Not really (see above). The method of acquisition is different, but the effect is identical. People are free to come up with whatever plausible explanation for the rules they want for their table. PC vs. NPC marks is how I'm going about it and TM marks work perfectly fine within the PC mark heading.
This doesn't just effect TM's. Say you as a decker have a face buddy of yours convince a tech in a corp to give you marks on a file that normally just would be impossible to hack. Sweet now you can just copy the file no test right? Wrong by the rules you still have to roll even though you have legit marks. By these rules no player can do any matrix action legit or not without GOD coming for them at some point. The exception being TM but only because they are not really doing matrix actions but resonance actions.
Unless the decker got a SIN and was added to payroll, no. If the decker got a SIN and was added to payroll, he probably has other issues. The decker probably should have asked his buddy to copy the file to a chip. I work at a university. You can't even get a @university.edu email here without going through a number of different departments. No single office, let alone single person, generates that kind of authority. A single wageslave can't, on his own, give some random username corporate access.
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Obviously if something happens physically or even in the matrix that shouldn't be then the spider going to go looking. But if all you do is go there get marks on a file and copy the file and leave why would the spider even know if you had legit access to that file to copy?
All of this operates under the assumption that the marks a TM gets are inherently different from the marks a decker generates. While this is certainly one reading of things, it is by no means the only reading. Indeed, if you factor in design elements like game balance and parallel rules (which seems to be a big thing in 5e), there seems to be reason to conclude that decker marks and TM marks are, or at least should be, the same. My interpretation is, obviously, also an interpretation. But my interpretation is grounded in the context of the game as a whole. I don't see the contextual support for the TM marks are "real" line of thinking.
"Brute Force" and Hack on the Fly are you tricking or forcing ill gotten marks on something this is inherently different than "invite mark," They are not the same they will never be the same. The first two are attacks the last is something that requires you to be the owner to do.
Its also not something most TM will ever be able to use, puppeteer to do as they have to use puppeteer on the owner of that device to get them to issue the marks. which causes other issues like the fact they don't understand why there persona just randomly gave marks to some unknown so your likely using resonance veil to mask there own matrix actions form them. But once that is all done your left with legitimate access for a set time. Is it possible for someone to check records and start wondering why you were given access? Yes which is why you hurry but that spider as far as he knows the person in charge gave you access. Hell he might even start calling people but this is not instant. He has got to go through the chain of command, because while you having access might seem odd if he attacks you and you did have legit access its his ass.
I challenge you to go look at those three abilities and tell me they are not fundamentally different. Any ability that requires you to be an owner is in a different class than other actions.
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Puppeteer lets you make the target do any action without having any Marks on them, and since "Owner" is pretty much just an extension of the Mark system, there's absolutely no rules reason why you'd have to use Puppeteer on the Owner in order to Invite Mark. Else you'd have to use every other Puppeteer function on a persona with the right amount of Marks too, and you do not.
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-snip-
Puppeteer lets you make the target do any action without having any Marks on them, and since "Owner" is pretty much just an extension of the Mark system, there's absolutely no rules reason why you'd have to use Puppeteer on the Owner in order to Invite Mark. Else you'd have to use every other Puppeteer function on a persona with the right amount of Marks too, and you do not.
The reason is because owner is required to "invite mark" and a device or persona can only do a matrix action it is able to do. So yes you could puppeteer a spider to invite mark but if they are not the owner they won't be able to do it.
If you’re the owner of a device, file, persona, host, or
IC program, you can offer other icons the opportunity
to put a mark on your device, file, etc.
You could also puppeteer a device to invite 3 marks to itself, but since a device does not own itself this would do nothing.
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"Brute Force" and Hack on the Fly are you tricking or forcing ill gotten marks on something this is inherently different than "invite mark," They are not the same they will never be the same. The first two are attacks the last is something that requires you to be the owner to do.
To reiterate: they are different means to the same ends. There is no rational reason to believe the ends are somehow different for deckers than for TMs.
Its also not something most TM will ever be able to use, puppeteer to do as they have to use puppeteer on the owner of that device to get them to issue the marks. which causes other issues like the fact they don't understand why there persona just randomly gave marks to some unknown so your likely using resonance veil to mask there own matrix actions form them. But once that is all done your left with legitimate access for a set time.
Your use of the word legitimate is entirely interpretive. Which is fine, but you should be upfront about it. Again, I have discussed the contextual reasoning behind my interpretation and you have not. I'm sure you will, but right now I just have you adding words like "legitimate" into your readings without support. I see no reason to privilege your interpretation as legitimate absent evidence.
Is it possible for someone to check records and start wondering why you were given access? Yes which is why you hurry but that spider as far as he knows the person in charge gave you access. Hell he might even start calling people but this is not instant. He has got to go through the chain of command, because while you having access might seem odd if he attacks you and you did have legit access its his ass.
So design really decided that decker marks, TM marks, and authentic marks were in fact all different things that had very slightly different rules associated with them but never decided to spell out those differences?
I challenge you to go look at those three abilities and tell me they are not fundamentally different. Any ability that requires you to be an owner is in a different class than other actions.
They are not fundamentally different. For the purposes of answering the question "How does my PC get marks?" the differences (aside from rolling different dice polls) are entirely stylistic. All three abilities are (roll dice, get marks). These abilities have other secondary uses that are different--Hack on the Fly can jump grids, Puppeteer is obviously more versatile--but since this discussion is about marks, there's effectively no difference.
Rules in SR5 transpose all the time. Want to crack open a maglock? Roll Locksmith + Agility v. Rating x2. Want to crack open a file? Roll Hacking + Logic v. Rating x2. Want to crack a mana barrier? Roll Magic + Charisma v. Force x2. I'd be willing to bet if some other thing showed up needing cracking, it would roll Rating x2 on the opposed roll. Want to initiate? Look up the mechanical rules for submersion and swap a few words. The only difference between the two processes is fluff.
You're arguing that in a game full of rules transposition, marks are the exception. This is despite the fact that 2 of the 3 ways of obtaining marks are clearly rules transpositions with the differences between Brute Force and Hack on the Fly. But Puppeteer is its own special snowflake. Special to the extent that it circumvents the core "You need to roll dice to do things" design element of SR. I just don't buy it and I cannot see how from a game balance/game design standpoint, there's any reason to think that's how it works.
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-snip-
Puppeteer lets you make the target do any action without having any Marks on them, and since "Owner" is pretty much just an extension of the Mark system, there's absolutely no rules reason why you'd have to use Puppeteer on the Owner in order to Invite Mark. Else you'd have to use every other Puppeteer function on a persona with the right amount of Marks too, and you do not.
[/quote]
The reason is because owner is required to "invite mark" and a device or persona can only do a matrix action it is able to do. So yes you could puppeteer a spider to invite mark but if they are not the owner they won't be able to do it.
If you’re the owner of a device, file, persona, host, or
IC program, you can offer other icons the opportunity
to put a mark on your device, file, etc.
You could also puppeteer a device to invite 3 marks to itself, but since a device does not own itself this would do nothing.
[/quote]
Read this:
For all intents and purposes, owning an icon is the same as having four marks on it.
So, for all itnents and purposes, "owner" is just an extra, hard-to-reach Mark level, of which there can only be one; therefore, if Puppeteer cannot do something with the Owner requirement without being the owner, it can't do anything with another Mark requirement without having those Marks as well.
In that case, Puppeteer can't make a device do any of the following matrix actions:
- Control Device
- Crack File
- Crash Program
- Edit File
- Erase Mark
- Format Device
- Invite Mark
- Jack Out
- Jam Signals
- Jump Into
- Reboot Device
- Send Message (in some cases)
- Set Data Bomb
- Snoop
- Spoof Command
- Switch Interface Mode
- Trace Icon
So essentially 90% of all Matrix actions. Your interpretation makes Puppeteer, a Level + 4 Fading CF, completely useless.
(I will flat-out ignore any reasoning based on there being a structural difference between being Owner or having 1-3 Marks on something, because by RAW "for -all- intents and purposes", there is not.)
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Read this:
For all intents and purposes, owning an icon is the same as having four marks on it.
So, for all itnents and purposes, "owner" is just an extra, hard-to-reach Mark level, of which there can only be one; therefore, if Puppeteer cannot do something with the Owner requirement without being the owner, it can't do anything with another Mark requirement without having those Marks as well.
In that case, Puppeteer can't make a device do any of the following matrix actions:
- Control Device
- Crack File
- Crash Program
- Edit File
- Erase Mark
- Format Device
- Invite Mark
- Jack Out
- Jam Signals
- Jump Into
- Reboot Device
- Send Message (in some cases)
- Set Data Bomb
- Snoop
- Spoof Command
- Switch Interface Mode
- Trace Icon
So essentially 90% of all Matrix actions. Your interpretation makes Puppeteer, a Level + 4 Fading CF, completely useless.
(I will flat-out ignore any reasoning based on there being a structural difference between being Owner or having 1-3 Marks on something, because by RAW "for -all- intents and purposes", there is not.)
Puppeteer
You push Resonance commands into a target, forcing it to perform a Matrix action...
You can't make the target do a matrix action it can't do by the rules.
INVITE MARK
(SIMPLE ACTION)
Marks Required:Owner
Test:none (Data Processing action)
If you’re the owner of a device, file, persona, host, or
IC program, you can offer other icons the opportunity
to put a mark on your device, file, etc. When you make
the offer, you choose the number of marks allowed, their
duration, and how long the offer stands. The invitee can
then mark your icon with a Free Action. You may revoke
your offer at any time before the mark is placed, but
once another icon has a mark, you need to either use
the Erase Mark action or reboot your device to remove it
before the duration you chose expires.
Only an owner can perform invite mark.
You can force a persona to jackout. but you can't force a device to jackout, for the same reason. Devices don't own themselves, and the jackout action requires you to be the owner.
I just wan to add as further explanation, its not the ability Puppeteer that requires owner, its the action you want to do (invite mark) that requires it. Forcing something to make an action doesn't not stop that device/persona from having to follow the rules, it just means you force them to use their abilities to is a single matrix action. They still follow rules and have to roll dice etc.
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on reflection the problem is puppeteer - which should be amended to say you cannot force any action that requires owner. issue fixed.
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on reflection the problem is puppeteer - which should be amended to say you cannot force any action that requires owner. issue fixed.
Given that Puppeteer seems to be supposed to be powerful (due to the crazy L+4 fading and thresholds required to do anything with it), I'd say that it's more reasonable to amend it to say that you can force an action as though it was being performed by the owner.
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Also, the Owner performs Invite Mark -through- the device. The Owner isn't letting you Invite Marks on himself, after all. So making a device Invite Marks on you (assuming that Puppeteer acts regardless of Marks, which it should) is completely legit.
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But that's the problem, forcing owner actions like invite mark are too good because it makes you a legitimate user from one dice roll. Even for puppeteer, too good (imo). What else can puppeteer do as owner matrix actions - jack out, or make target go into VR from AR - that's bloody strong!!
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I would assume defensive rolls play like this: The owner/user defends against every action, even their own, by default. They may opt to forgo this defense if they feel the action is legitimate or benefits them.
This does assume that you -can- choose not to defend against something. I feel this is a reasonable assumption, and creates the best play environment.
As for Puppeteer, you guys are getting really pedantic. If you're going down this road, devices don't take independent matrix actions at all. People in the meatworld use devices to take actions. Since Puppeteer can't target those people (it targets Devices), Puppeteer does nothing at all and the writers really just felt like wasting their wordcount and confusing us. Woo~.
Sarcasm aside, there is a certain amount of common sense that has to be applied to make an ability work. That said, when it comes to Invite Mark, I'm not sure its intended for Puppeteer to be a good method of using it. Even if it works (I'm debating, the "Owner" is always the one defending against the action, after all) you have the sticky issue of this line:
"You may revoke your offer at any time before the mark is placed, but once another icon has a mark, you need to either use the Erase Mark action or reboot your device to remove it before the duration you chose expires."
So it goes something like this: "I puppeteer you to invite mark." "Whatever, I immediately revoke your permission as a non-action." "I... well, shit." Resonance seems to be more about bypassing the mark system entirely for short duration than feeding into it.
And yes, a Security Spider worth his salt is going to have an Agent monitoring every mark on every device under his care. If something shows up he, the person, does not recognize then it would have action taken against it. This has to happen, or otherwise sleaze specialists would just troll everything.
All of -that- said. The Owner thing is a tad odd in respect to companies, especially in regards to Full Matrix Defense.
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"You may revoke your offer at any time before the mark is placed, but once another icon has a mark, you need to either use the Erase Mark action or reboot your device to remove it before the duration you chose expires."
So it goes something like this: "I puppeteer you to invite mark." "Whatever, I immediately revoke your permission as a non-action." "I... well, shit." Resonance seems to be more about bypassing the mark system entirely for short duration than feeding into it.
Obviously if your persona suddenly is sending out an invite to mark that you didn't actually do your going to immediately rescind the mark (as long as your paying attention) and even if you weren't paying attention surely you will either erase mark or reboot. But if the TM is smart and uses resonance veil to make the owner see nothing then there's no reason for them to even think an invite to mark went out.
And I agree Resonance is about about bypassing it which is why I agree with the premise that the mark system doesn't account for legitimate users and marks as it makes no sense for someone who is supposed to be using and manipulating those file to have to roll hacking checks which currently will happen if that user is a PC. Lets say you have a strange game where for some reason a corp hires you to be a spider by the rules even though you have 3 marks on everything in the node you would still have to roll to do anything, does that really make sense?
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This is how we've been playing it. You need to get your mark on the individual devices, not the host to start controlling things.
Problem is that, by the rules, if you have 3 Marks on a Device -and- on the Host, you still can't make a Device automatically do actions it's supposed to be able to do without hacking. Even a door made to be opened through the Matrix with Command Device would require any legitimate user who tried to open it to hack, since there's no dicepool associated with it.
Say what you want about SR4's terrible hacking system, but at least user privileges and accounts were clear in what you could or could not legitimately do with them.
Why would a legitmate user (of a door) need to do anything through the Matrix? What I mean is, wouldn't that legitmate user have an RFID, passcode, voice/retinal scan, etc. so they would just walk up to the door and authenticate? The legitimate user doesn't need to hack.
But the hacker without legitmate access, walks up to the door and then needs to get a mark on it and Command Device (both illegal actions).
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This is how we've been playing it. You need to get your mark on the individual devices, not the host to start controlling things.
Problem is that, by the rules, if you have 3 Marks on a Device -and- on the Host, you still can't make a Device automatically do actions it's supposed to be able to do without hacking. Even a door made to be opened through the Matrix with Command Device would require any legitimate user who tried to open it to hack, since there's no dicepool associated with it.
Say what you want about SR4's terrible hacking system, but at least user privileges and accounts were clear in what you could or could not legitimately do with them.
Why would a legitmate user (of a door) need to do anything through the Matrix? What I mean is, wouldn't that legitmate user have an RFID, passcode, voice/retinal scan, etc. so they would just walk up to the door and authenticate? The legitimate user doesn't need to hack.
But the hacker without legitmate access, walks up to the door and then needs to get a mark on it and Command Device (both illegal actions).
Marks aren't concerned with legitimacy; for any user to do anything Matrix wise, marks are required.
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Why would a legitmate user (of a door) need to do anything through the Matrix? What I mean is, wouldn't that legitmate user have an RFID, passcode, voice/retinal scan, etc. so they would just walk up to the door and authenticate? The legitimate user doesn't need to hack.
But the hacker without legitmate access, walks up to the door and then needs to get a mark on it and Command Device (both illegal actions).
A legitimate user (of a door) would open the door by altering an augmented reality object (ARO) in their augmented reality heads-up display. If the user have DNI this would be the free action Change Linked Device Mode and without DNI this would be the simple action Change Device Mode.
To fool the door to open you would either hack a mark on the icon's owner and then spend a complex action to fool (Sleaze as limit) the door that it is receiving a legitimate command from it's owner (by using his Hacking skill and Intuition attribute to spoof a command in the name of the owner)
- or you would hack a mark on the door and use a free action to fool (Sleaze as limit) the door's ARO to open (by using his Electronic Warefare skill and Intuition attribute) similar to if he would be a legitimate user.
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I kind of assumed that everything had two levels of security: Marks and "passwords". A hacker, Deck or TM, firsts establishes level of access (places marks), then "works their magic" to verify that access. Otherwise the alternative would be to spend months getting hired and promoted to the level of clearance you need.
I don't think it has anything to do with the legitimacy of the mark; the mark is or it isn't. I think it has everything to do with your verification, which your skill check is supplying in lieu of clearance.
Renraku employees probably carry a keycard with them that game-wise counts as a device with the proper marks and verification to get them through all the doors/security checkpoints that they need to get by in order to do their jobs. Your fixer shouldn't be denied the opportunity to acquire one of these keycards just because there's a hacker in your group. Your hacker should be there for situations that you didn't prepare for, or didn't go as planned, like a keycard with the proper RFID verification, but the marks aren't right.
What I want to know is, how exactly does Puppeteer work with Invite Mark? I'm kind of okay with the fact that metagame-wise I spend a simple action to invite the mark - except it isn't a Jedi mind trick, so I'm not okay with it - but where does it say the puppeteer has that much control over all of Invite Mark's parameters? This is what I see:
"I have to Invite Mark you? Okay, you can have one mark that lasts .1 seconds. You have .1 seconds to decide."
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What I want to know is, how exactly does Puppeteer work with Invite Mark? I'm kind of okay with the fact that metagame-wise I spend a simple action to invite the mark - except it isn't a Jedi mind trick, so I'm not okay with it - but where does it say the puppeteer has that much control over all of Invite Mark's parameters? This is what I see:
"I have to Invite Mark you? Okay, you can have one mark that lasts .1 seconds. You have .1 seconds to decide."
Let me turn that around for a second - on what basis would you suggest that the target, which doesn't know what the hell is happening and very well may not be remotely capable of decision-making, gets to have that kind of control over the action it is forced to take?
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Let me turn that around for a second - on what basis would you suggest that the target, which doesn't know what the hell is happening and very well may not be remotely capable of decision-making, gets to have that kind of control over the action it is forced to take?
Just posted in the other puppet/mark thread, but I'll try and sum up...
From the way Invite Mark reads, it doesn't sound like the device is the one doing the inviting, it sounds like the owner is inviting marks onto the device. Also, according to Aaron (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg230175#msg230175 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg230175#msg230175), no. 3), it sounds like the owner is aware of what happened... although from his answer, it sounds like the device is doing the inviting. Either way, the device's owner seems aware based on his reply (which I understand is only semi-official).
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That reading really doesn't make sense - I've explained a bit as to why in the other thread. Invite Mark might normally be initiated by the owner, but it is by necessity completed by the device. Puppeteer takes over the first half of that, boxing the owner out.
And knowing marks have been invited doesn't mean you know what's happening, specifically, you don't know why or how it happened.