Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Killstring on <09-16-14/1624:27>
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Known as "The Outsider," possessed of a whole clan of dragons, and creator of the human equivalent of Immortal Elves?
Why have I never heard of this guy before? Is he or his clan around in the 6th world?
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Why do you think fewer than two dozen Great Dragons survived into the Sixth World? ;)
He's never been mentioned explicitly or by reference to my knowledge.
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Let me guess, this guy kicked off the 'down-cycle' wyrm hunting mentioned in a few books. :-X
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My personal theory is that he (and his old clan of long-lived humans) has ties to the Black Lodge, but IIRC there's never really even been official teasers/hints in that direction. It just makes sense to me, in the "long-lived humans, no elves allowed," sort of club of uber-magicians the BL has grown to be.
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Oh nuts. Critias had to go and turn this serious.
I don't necessarily agree with him, but there are some rather suggestive links between Denairastas Clan and Black Lodge. This becomes especially interesting if the human who appeared in Praxis was the Black Lodge's Penultimate Master. And now the Black Lodge is also now directly at war with the Great Dragons as of their last council, so that adds another wrinkle.
Let me guess, this guy kicked off the 'down-cycle' wyrm hunting mentioned in a few books. :-X
Maybe.
However, most speculation has focused on the elves, specifically Aithne Oakforest (Who may be linked to DIVE, which might explain how DIVE has been able to acquire so much intimate information on the Great Dragons). That said, there are potentially far more of the Denairastas Clan than there are IEs. Or the immortal humans died off in the Fourth and Fifth Worlds without Denairastas's direct intervention. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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My personal theory is that he (and his old clan of long-lived humans) has ties to the Black Lodge, but IIRC there's never really even been official teasers/hints in that direction. It just makes sense to me, in the "long-lived humans, no elves allowed," sort of club of uber-magicians the BL has grown to be.
I agree with Critias that the Denairastas clan is most likely behind the Black Lodge. It makes sense, since they have always been high level initiate types with seemingly much more knowledge than they ought to be able to have given the 'no elves' policy, and the fact that the 'official' dragons are not big on sharing secrets with the Young Races. The Black Lodge also supposedly originated somewhere in central Europe, which is (roughly) the area where Iopos was during Earthdawn's time. Also, the organization goes up (as far as we know) to a 'Penultimate Master', suggesting that there is an Ultimate Master out there.
As far as the dragonslayer orders, my personal opinion is that they are descended from the Therans. While the Denairastas might have nudged them along and perhaps helped behind the scenes, the dragonslayer orders are simply too blatant and open for it to be the work of the Outcast.
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As far as the dragonslayer orders, my personal opinion is that they are descended from the Therans. While the Denairastas might have nudged them along and perhaps helped behind the scenes, the dragonslayer orders are simply too blatant and open for it to be the work of the Outcast.
Or they could be Hunters.
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Nothing happened. ED is licensed to a totally different company now, and since that character was never mentioned in Shadowrun, he likely never will be now. :)
Yeah, not the answer you were looking for, I know.
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so the scale of Scary goes Lawyers>Horrors>CFD>Bugs>Shedim>Corps? ;)
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Nothing happened. ED is licensed to a totally different company now, and since that character was never mentioned in Shadowrun, he likely never will be now. :)
Yeah, not the answer you were looking for, I know.
Nah, it's cool. Just so I'm clear, the cutoff is based on whether or not anything from ED was mentioned in a Shadowrun source, yes? There's already plenty there, and FASA 2.0 cannot dictate what I put in my own games, so all's well.
Mostly was just curious, as there's some pretty compelling possibilities; could be Lofwyr (I know this was debunked by German fans. All hail German Fans), the Black Lodge (seems like this was hinted at), the force behind Atzlan (in the ED Dragons PDF, the Outcast seemed pretty scientifically curious in regards to blending Horrors and Things That Are Not Horrors) or could just not have shown up yet.
Considering that the next Shadowrun game I GM was always likely to delve into what's up in Dragonland -- specifically, what Hestaby's doing these days -- I may just mention that Denaiastas is going to show up, and then have runs involving all of the above.
(Edit: I can spell FASA, I swear)
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so the scale of Scary goes Lawyers>Horrors>CFD>Bugs>Shedim>Corps? ;)
...You mean you didn't know?! :P
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Nah, it's cool. Just so I'm clear, the cutoff is based on whether or not anything from ED was mentioned in a Shadowrun source, yes? There's already plenty there, and Fase 2.0 cannot dictate what I put in my own games, so all's well.
I forgot a second smiley tag in there, as I was mostly just being snarky (in a fun way, not a mean way). But yeah, this is pretty much it. Shadowrun and ED already had a bit of a solid divide to them anyway, because even the couple immortals that appeared in both tended to have different names to them. But yeah, nuFASA isn't going to tell us we can no longer use something that was previously established in Shadowrun that refers back to ED. By the same token, we're not going to pull any more direct ED references out either.
The connections are still there, but... There's not much point to really digging into the 4th world much further for Shadowrun. Rather, it's better for the game as a whole if we focus on the 6th world and move forward. I doubt you'll see much direct usage or references to 4th world stuff, but that doesn't mean it's gone by any means.
And as you say, the Game Police aren't gonna kick down your door if you want to use that stuff more directly in your home game :)
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In my totally lay view, with limited information and totally not giving actual legal advice or analysis, it seems that the IP rights are so complicated as far as consumers are concerned that it's just easiest for fans to take Bull's statement in his first post at face value.
Though I'd miss the opportunities to fuck with you all if you did.
so the scale of Scary goes Lawyers>Horrors>CFD>Bugs>Shedim>Corps? ;)
Yep.
I do want to point out that I also side with the conservative view for another reason, and that is selfish: I want to create my own shit, and not be hindered by someone else's creation (even with the considerable liberties we can and have taken with them). If I'm not going to own my work product, I'd at least like there to be something original to show for the effort.
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Who took Harlequin and Aina into the late SR4 books?
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Oh, I'm gonna have words with that guy.
Anyhow. I personally would say that after Deniwhateverthehellitsnameis did yet another stupid thing during the 4th World, the GDs (and maybe IEs) hunted down him, his dragons, and all their associated humans - quite possibly using a spell like the one Sirrurg used on Cali - and put them into the ground. Considering the non-canonical (but still nicely interesting) bit about the start of the Black Lodge that's floating out there, I like mine.
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Email me. I forgot your idea.
I like keeping the idea out there as a red herring. I also prefer it to the origin story that never made it into Loose Alliances, mainly because that raises more questions than it answers (Not that I'm against it, but ... Meh).
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Not mine - Peter Taylor's. Here's (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=5973.msg102990#msg102990) your post in which you re-post what he'd posted but never got to get into Loose Alliances...
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Yeah. I meant the last line where you said "I like mine."
Besides, we haven't chatted in a while.
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Naaw, just about Denairastas. I prefer my line of thought: "I'm a moron, I violated the rules of my society, so they banished me. So I'm gonna do MORE stuff that violates those rules. I mean, I'm banished, so I can get away with it, right??" Not. Out come the nukings and the bloodline-killing magics and suchlike. He had what, another 1500 years to screw up? Had to happen at some point.
Besides, not everything super-magical has to be in a direct line of descent from some great ancient 4th World event/person/whatever. :P :)
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True story! As cool as it is to have ties to a mythic history, it would be incredibly depressing if no significant innovations have occurred since the 4th world. I like to think that (meta)humanity's got some spark to it.
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Indeed.
I think it's appealing because it does looks like a perfectly reasonable connection to make between The Outcast and the Black Lodge. Especially compared to say, forming a new kingdom in Oregon.
CT and Clutch only began to touch on some things that also seem interesting in the bigger picture, such as how fucking aggravating would it be to deal with a lizard people conspiracy theorist when it turns out, oh, dragons are real? Like, there have to be enough artifacts and legends and just the law of averages striking once again that even downcycle hunters didn't necessarily have to be immortals with personal grudges like Aithne Oakforest, but people who realized that this shit was real and we cannot let these things come back.
Another thing is that clearly dragons and specifically Great Dragons have gotten more powerful since the Awakening. On one hand, Lofwyr has been kept in relative check ever since he dumped enough gold on the market to sink the price per ounce and still buy BMW, but Dunkelzahn owned a crazy amount of stuff no one even realized, and physically Aztechnology threw virtually every weapon in their arsenal at Sirrurg and he's still alive.
But the corps, especially but not exclusively Aztechnology being the biggest threat, may or may not have something that was beyond the scope of metahuman and draconic knowledge in the Fourth World: The DNA of immortal elves and two great dragons.
Naaw, just about Denairastas.
Gotcha.
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But the corps, especially but not exclusively Aztechnology being the biggest threat, may or may not have something that was beyond the scope of metahuman and draconic knowledge in the Fourth World: The DNA of immortal elves and two great dragons.
Hmm. Something in the way you said that makes the back of my brain simmer. Hmmm. I think ... I think I need to take another look at a couple of things.
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But the corps, especially but not exclusively Aztechnology being the biggest threat, may or may not have something that was beyond the scope of metahuman and draconic knowledge in the Fourth World: The DNA of immortal elves and two great dragons.
Oh man. That's... I had not thought about that. Damn.
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But the corps, especially but not exclusively Aztechnology being the biggest threat, may or may not have something that was beyond the scope of metahuman and draconic knowledge in the Fourth World: The DNA of immortal elves and two great dragons.
"Coming to a theater near you this Halloween!"
Hey, why not? :D
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Exactly.
As the early 21st century poet Hilary Duff asked, "Why not?"
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I like to think that (meta)humanity's got some spark to it.
There are a decent amount of innovations that 4th Age magic had no concept of. Cyberzombies are an exclusively 6th World issue, because there wasn't the technology for it previously. We can speculate that this part of the reason why Harlequin had hope for the future, when Tech and Magic had progressed enough to defeat the Horrors, but I guess we'll never see that awesome RPG.
I seem to recall that there were other surprised for 4th Age practitioners in SR Lore, but I can't remember them now.
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Jiffy Pop
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Jiffy Pop
Ever and anon.
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Jiffy Pop
Ever and anon.
Also Harlequin was much impressed by the Bucket Burgers in the SRR Anthology as I recall. :P
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My personal theory is that he (and his old clan of long-lived humans) has ties to the Black Lodge, but IIRC there's never really even been official teasers/hints in that direction. It just makes sense to me, in the "long-lived humans, no elves allowed," sort of club of uber-magicians the BL has grown to be.
I agree with Critias that the Denairastas clan is most likely behind the Black Lodge. It makes sense, since they have always been high level initiate types with seemingly much more knowledge than they ought to be able to have given the 'no elves' policy, and the fact that the 'official' dragons are not big on sharing secrets with the Young Races. The Black Lodge also supposedly originated somewhere in central Europe, which is (roughly) the area where Iopos was during Earthdawn's time. Also, the organization goes up (as far as we know) to a 'Penultimate Master', suggesting that there is an Ultimate Master out there.
As far as the dragonslayer orders, my personal opinion is that they are descended from the Therans. While the Denairastas might have nudged them along and perhaps helped behind the scenes, the dragonslayer orders are simply too blatant and open for it to be the work of the Outcast.
Maybe . . . . just maybe . . . the Black Lodge has (or had) a subordinate organisation of designated hitters, word of which could spread in the shadows in, say, a format like one of the 10 Mercs write-ups. Probably not a standalone product though.
And as for the Denairastas - numerous family lines, properties and fortunes 'disappeared' during a distinct period - see Clutch of Dragons and a few other books. Dragon Civil War-related - maybe. But just suppose . . .
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Someone also seemed intent on preventing Damon starting a new bloodline (Accidentally? Carelessly? Notoriously?).
Damon is an example of why so few Adult Dragons have ever become Great Dragons.
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They get into high-speed bike racing while drunk/drugged out of their minds and wearing squishy human forms? ;D
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Yep
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Talk about crazy college days...
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The drunk Fireball trick has claimed legions.
(I wonder if anyone's even old enough to get that reference)
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Sorry, you're gonna have to elaborate.
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Sorry, you're gonna have to elaborate.
An errant fireball was the macguffin that led to the whole plot of Revenge of the Nerds.
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8FbxMUmUs8
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I always had the feeling, that Juan Atzcapotzalco could have been a member of that family. I would fit nicely with a corrupted Great Dragon and the discussion in the 2.0 Aztlan Sourcebook. That the name Azcapotzalco means 'ant hill' in Nahuatl is interesting in the sense of bug spirits, but with horrors crawling all over the place, they don't fit in.
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From Ancient Files' section on Aztlan:
:::::[LADY OF THE COURT] How odd. Why would they do that when it would be so simple just to create a simulacrum or surrogate of some kind?
:::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] Personal experience again?
:::::[JUNGLE CAT] Atzcapotzalco has always been something of an enigma, even when he was still a public figure. We've received clear reports that he is magically capable and quite proficient; yet when I was in Aztlan on business ten years ago (in my "guise") I actually managed to get close to him for a short time. I felt a palpable sense of power about him, and yet no effluence of an easily discernible aura. I thought perhaps it was a double, but all other evidence indicated otherwise.
:::::[WORDSMYTH] I've met him as well, a little less than eight years ago (after Mr. "Rat Dancer" says he "cacked off"). We...had words about certain Aztechnology practices and efforts with regard o the Tir. He was not amused. I was not amused. He is a man of great power, mystic power. I would have taken him for one of us, but to all cursory examinations he appears simply human. Inexplicable.
:::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] Never dealt with the man, or whatever.
:::::[LADY OF THE COURT] Could he have some artifact or object?
:::::[WORDSMYTH] Possible, especially considering the area. Cat, you said that Amazonia has a Locus. COuld Aztechnology have one as well?
:::::[JUNGLE CAT] Then why the blood rites?
:::::[WORDSMYTH] True.
:::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] Theirs could be corrupt.
:::::[LADY OF THE COURT] A curse on that thought!
:::::[THE BIG 'D'] YOU HAVE GONE OFF THE TRACK HERE. We shall return to this.
This began in response to voiced rumors that Juan Atzcapotzalco had died nine years previously (in 2048). Lady of the Court questioned why they would retain Juan in particular, rather than create some sort of substitute that looks just like him. I don't know what the "personal experience" comment Laughing Man uses means.
Jungle Cat's "guise" might be his metahuman form if he is a shape-changer.
Jungle Cat and Ehran's statements point out some oddities. For one, Juan appears to be magically capable and in the same range of proficiency as an Immortal Elf...but he appears human. The fact that he radiates power to those sensitive to it but lacks a discernible aura is very peculiar: if he doesn't have an aura, then he must be masking. But if he's masking, he shouldn't be broadcasting power. One possibility may be that if cybermancy was keeping Juan alive: he would create mobile background counts as he moved but retain his masking abilities as a magician. Or it might be something else, such as an ancient magical artifact of some sort like Lady of the Court suggests..
A Locus, or mel'thelem, is an ancient and powerful magical device of unknown origin, purpose and power; although it appears to be located at a nexus of mana lines and able to empower mighty rituals when activated. It is unclear why Aztlan would be more likely to have a Locus than any other region, unless they are artifacts of particular inhabitants; such as Great Feathered Serpents. For the record, Aztlan does excavate a Locus in 2057, shortly before Dunkelzahn's death.
Apparently, with a Locus the blood magics that Aztechnology makes use of would not be necessary; Laughing Man says that it may indeed be necessary if the Locus is corrupt. I am not sure how this could be accomplished or what its effects would be (save t o corrupt magicians that come into contact with it), but as the device contains veins of orichalcum, which may be tainted by Horrors, then it is possible.
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Did Harlequin hint that Lady of the court (Brane Deigh) is a substitute for Alachia?
Awesome Harlequin is awesome
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Well, I seem to remember that she is (was?) mentored by Alachia, so it seems possible.
And Harlequin isn't just awesome, he is crazy awesome! :P
Also, looking through the prism of trying (and failing) to get the students to pay attention to the class during my recent teaching practice, I find Dunkie's attempts to do the same with a bunch of several millenia old uber-powerful IE's EVEN MORE hilarious than the first time I read that.
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And yet a simple bomb did him in.
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And yet a simple bomb did him in.
That's if the bomb was all that simple.
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Call it a 'self-sacrifice'. After all, we know what happened; the only real question (for the players) is how it was done - if that's even a question.
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I meant Juan Azcapotzalco.
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It is a tough call, seeing as even the IEs can't figure out what the hell he was.
Maybe whatever forces were backing him withdrew their favour or he is stewing in a vat somewhere on call to pop up once more down the road.
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There's also the matter of whatever was in the box Dunkelzahn left him.
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One interesting thing to think about the Atzlan locus needing blood magic is the difference between blood magic of the Fourth and Sixth Worlds - in Earthdawn, it was self-sacrifice, giving up some of yourself to create a supernatural effect, which even mundanes could use (if I remember blood charms correctly). In Shadowrun, it's exclusively TAKING something from someone else to strengthen supernatural effects (the Great Ghost Dance in the Twist novels aside).
Perhaps the Atzlan locus was originally powered by the blood magic of the Fourth, but became corrupted by the blood magic of the Sixth..? I mean, the gruesome rituals of blood mages come directly from pre-Spanish Atzlan, and the magicians working for Atzlan might have leapt straight to that when trying to activate it, and inadvertently corrupted it into NEEDING the 6th World stuff.
Or maybe it had been used DURING pre-Spanish Atzlan, and despite the dormancy of magic, the sacrifices corrupted it...
And I'm personally a bit sad that Earthdawn is owned by a different company. I like the idea of an interconnected gaming world.
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From Ancient Files' section on blood magic:
All uses of blood magic require an expenditure of life force, either from the pracitioner, a willing donor, or a victim as circumstances and uses warrant. All uses of blood magic permanently mark the user physically and mentally, but after the Scourge of the Age of Legends blood magic is roughly split into two distinct practices, Life magic and Death magic.
Life Magic encompasses the original use of blood magic: to seal oaths, boost adept powers, cast spells, empower blood charms, and in other ways sacrificing a bit of your own life energy to gain a greater effect. In the Age of Legend, many workings of magic required an extra boost of magical energy. A practitioner in those days drained small doses of their own life energy to fuel certain talents, items and abilities, taking a bit of damage that can later be healed normally (this is referred to as strain). This practice is functionally identical in some respects to the Sixth World concept of Drain in Shadowrun, indicating that the adept forcefully channels more mana than can be used without effort to cause a magical effect.
Death Magic is originally attributed to the Therans, this is the practice of drawing on the life force of others to power magics; such as when the life forces of slaves are drained to power the locomotion of Thera's great stone airships. Aside from ethical concerns regarding this aspect of blood magic; proponents of those who believe all Blood Magic comes from the Horrors and even attracts them point to the effects of Death Magic. This is, in part, true: Death Magic attracts the attentions of the Horrors. Death magic invariably involves the deliberate sacrifice of a living Namegiver. For an example, the killing ritual of the Hand of Corruption's Assassin branch allows the assassin to temporairily absorb the life force of the victim for increased stealth, before the ritual sends it elsewhere.
Additionally, in "Artifacts Unbound" Frosty (p. 141) knows two versions of "Sacriface" metamagic: bog standard blood magic, and a more refined variant that can be used without rising the background count provided that she sacrifaces either herself or another willing victim.
And then there is the Great Ghost Dance. So both kinds of blood magic are around it's just that... Well, did you seriously expected fraggin' Azzies to be willing to commit ritual suicide if they can just murder a few hundreds/thousands innocent people? ??? C'mon, chummer.
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As I don't have those books, I'll have to take your word for it.
It's also a far cry from the sheer... well, commonality of sacrifice magic in Earthdawn, where every adept knew the technique. Also, as it's one of the ways that non-adepts can fuel magical objects (blood charms), do you think it'd count towards Dunkelzahn's bounty on magic for mundanes?
Or has that bounty been claimed in some book I haven't yet read, too? :p
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It's still active, but the Draco Foundation will only take toxics and blood magicians (and bug shamans) who are on their bounty list.
You can also say that some of those charms have just been replaced by another form of "blood magic" – cybernetic and other unnatural augmentations, i.e. those costing Essence.
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This one?
To the first party to develop a magical item that can be used by a mundane. I leave the medium-sized chunk of orichalcum I keep in my sock drawer at Lake Louise.
Or possibly this one?
To the first party to successfully invent an artificial mechanism capable of producing and maintaining a magical effect with no assistance from a living magician or spirit. I leave 8 million nuyen for additional research into the fusion of magic and technology.
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It's also a far cry from the sheer... well, commonality of sacrifice magic in Earthdawn, where every adept knew the technique.
Yeah, but back in Earthdawn, mana level was MUCH higher. In Shadowrun magic appeared, what, 64 years ago?
Also, I seem to recall that Azzies really don't like it when someone plays with "their" toys.
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You're mistaken in regards to sacrifice magic. In Earthdawn, you could use unwilling others; in Shadowrun, you can use yourself or willing sacrifices. It's always been that way, but for plot's sake, in Shadowrun the FOCUS has been on the 'unwilling-others' version.
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and I did just spot something Arleesh said in the Clutch of Dragons book: "We're seeing old adversarial groups that we assumed were dead in the Fourth World that are now revealing themselves again."
That can't refer to the immortal elves, because the dragons have KNOWN about them for how long? As far as we know, there were only two groups who opposed the dragons, other than the dragonblooded elves: The Denairastas and the Therans. The rabble-rousing and leading humans to take down their adversaries seems more Denairastas-style than anything else...
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... uh ... again, no. On a couple of points.
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... uh ... again, no. On a couple of points.
...Mainly that a few pages later it talks about Harlequin and his vendetta against Ghostwalker, huh? And that the truce between the dragonblood elves and the dragons might be over...
But the anti-dragon sentiment is being borne by the Humanis-type goons, just with a redirected focus. "Who cares if that guy over there has hands the size of my head and a horn, when those THINGS are eating humans and trying to rule the world?" The other dragonbloods have no reason to stick their necks out like Harlequin does, and his actions are late in the game anyway - way after the whole plot begins to stir.
The Black Lodge connection also has potential, particularly because it DOES come from a FASA era where they were strengthening 4th-6th World connections.
Just because you have a murderous hate-boner for bringing in 4th World connections doesn't mean the rest of us do. I LIKE when a game acknowledges history, whether real or created; nothing made me happier than seeing mentions of Eliohann and reading about Perianwyr and other dragons from old Shadowrun adventures. And while I always thought that Mountainshadow=Dunkelzahn, getting it confirmed was a thumbs up.
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... I'm sorry, where are you getting all of 'just because you have a muderous hate-boner' from? I enjoy 4th World references, and despite never having even played Earthdawn, I know for a fact that your information is wrong - and this is the second time you've thrown up bad information.
Ever since they laid the rules out for sacrifice metamagic, it has always had the option to be willing or unwilling. And since you're failing to name them, I guess I get to - the Cult of the Great Hunter was all about the anti-dragon agenda, and is most likely the group which Arleesh - being the Great Dragon particularly concerned with the artifacts and corruption of the 4th world - was speaking about.
So seriously - check your facts before posting as though you had.
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Mmm, true, but I'd discounted the Cult of the Great Dragon Hunter because they're inherently linked to Verjigorm (the Great Dragon Hunter hisself!), and the Horrors aren't even hinted at as a threat in any material published since Dunkelzahn offed himself - well, that I've got access to anyway. If they were involved, I'd expect to hear more noises about Cthulhuesque cults trying to bridge the gap, as well as that guy from Harlequin2/Threats2, what was his name? Something Black?
Whereas the BL/Denairastas connection is hinted at multiple times, and they fit the bill as enemies of dragons as well as anyone.
Ancient Enemies of Dragons that could be stirring:
1) Therans
2) Cult of the Great Dragon Hunter
3) their children/Dragonblooded elves
4) Denairastas
Therans are another possibility but as the Atlantean Foundation seems almost more academic than political, and the other organizations who look for Theran artifacts seem bent on using them for their own power rather than resurrecting the 'glory days' I discounted them as well.
And whether the rules for sacrifice metamagic allow willing or unwilling donors, from the start it's been restricted to NPCs because of the moral implications, and even in the 5e book it says, "Be cautious when allowing PC blood mages" to GMs. Damfool idea to even hint at allowing it to PCs; they sure don't talk about toxic or insect shaman PCs...
Whereas in Earthdawn, it's available from the start. Sacrifice some of your damage capacity and spend some silver, and you too can have on-call fiery wings which let you fly to the floating castles of Thera! Or if you need to, take some damage to bump up your chances of performing that dangerous stunt! There are no moral implications, and I can't recall reading much of anything about unwilling donors in the books. Maybe my memory has just failed in my old age, (and I don't have the books close to hand) but even the Therans didn't use unwilling blood magic sacrifices... even the kaer magic didn't require it, and if anything did it would be that. The only ones who used unwilling donors were Horrors - and I always got the feeling they did it more for the horror it would inspire than because they had to...
And, er, the 'murderous hate-boner' line is one I use when I'm trying to actually damp down the rhetoric of an argument; I always laugh so hard when using it that I... well, I'm sorry for using it.
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what was his name? Something Black?
Believe you are referring to Mr. Darke.
While hell bent on trying to usher in a new age of pain under his masters, say what you will about the man, but he had style and knew how to make a decent Old Fashioned.
Edit:
(with apologies to Culture Beat)
Call him Mr. Horror
call him Mr. Wrong
call him Mr. Darke(Darke
Darke).
Call him Mr. Horror
call him Mr. Wrong
..
call him insane
(insane
insane) insane.
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what was his name? Something Black?
Believe you are referring to Mr. Darke.
What a guy. ;D
As for ancient-enemies-that-could-be-stirring, my money's on whoever's behind Azzies (*cough*horrors*cough*). Just because Big D is pulling a Gandalf somewhere in deep metaplanes doesn't means that Blood Mage Gestalt/Smoking Mirror/whatever-the-hell-they-are-calling-themselves-these-days stopped TRYING to find a way to let them in.
Also, while I admit I don't really know much about Theran's, I think Atlantean Foundation should be mentioned with IE's rather than them. They ARE headed by Alachia after all.
And completely off-topic: with the mention of the Great Cthulhu, I suddenly remembered THIS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75hQwSJFuXg
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I wonder if Hestaby would do the same thing Denairastas did now that she is an outcast. What did she do to get kicked out anyway?
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Of the top of my head, for revealing too much about dragon culture and relations and trying to involve those puny mortals.
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Yeah, after Alamais' defeat, there was a quite large dragon conclave to settle accounts in regards to dead dragon remains, SIrrurg, the attack on Lofwyr, Hestaby and the title of Loremaster. A large number of dragon bodies, including Alamais, all the dead during the battle and Dzitblachen were properly taken care of as per dragon traditions, Sirrurg got imprisoned for 'multiple lifetimes' in metahuman terms after a long debate, the attack on Lofwyr was discovered to be by the Black Lodge (which is now at war with dragons; the dragons' goals are to wipe them off the face of the Earth) and Hestaby had her hoards and holdings taken and was exiled from the dragon community for breaching draconic conventions and acting 'improperly'. After that, Lofwyr stood down from Loremaster, and his nominee, Celedyr, was put in place.
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I wonder if Hestaby would do the same thing Denairastas did now that she is an outcast. What did she do to get kicked out anyway?
Asked the UN to officially label Sirrurg a war criminal.
Her Voice got assassinated shortly after, seemingly by Lofwyr, so she went to war with him. Turned out it was Alamais though. You want to hear the kicker? If I recall correctly, it was Hestaby who managed to get the Dragon corpse back from Aztlan. But rather than taking that into account, that she was clearly trying to help not just metahumanity but also the dragons, they just banished her and killed off her followers for refusing to surrender her lair. They did acknowledge that Sirrurg was way out of line, but no, clearly Hestaby had to be banished for actually caring about Metahumanity. And THAT is why every non-pro-metahuman Dragon out there is our enemy. Because they exiled someone who actually cared for caring.
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In regards to Hestaby, they banished her for publically breaking ranks - not for trying to help out everyone involved. I know they haven't given any sort of a timeline on redemption, but I'd bet my last nuyen (to take a saying from my 'published self') that she'll be able to gain redemption in some way or another. The vote to banish her was not, after all, unanimous.
As for her followers, when your nation says, with however much reluctance, "I surrender," but you decide to actively and violently resist the occupying army, what the hell did you expect? They had the opportunity to step aside; they decided not to.
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I thought Burr-hide and Hestaby respected each other? Surely she would have known he didn't do it. There has to be more to that story.
You know I bet if metahumans were to help Ghostwalker get his lady a body again I'm sure he'd start caring like he used to and you'd have her on metahumanities side as well. Who needs Hestaby, Eh?
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"Burr-hide"??
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Sorry, I mean Lofwyr. There's just a dragon that resembles him in Earthdawn called Burr-hide so. It's still a good nickname since Burrs are sort of gold/brown, spiky, and everywhere.
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Lofwyr was a Great back then as well, so if Burr-hide was a Great - I don't recognize it, but hey, I wasn't that into ED - that's a possibility. He's known mostly as 'Gold-Master' among the dragons, as far as I know, and sometimes referred to as 'Gold-Snout' among the shadows.
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Ah. In one of the 1st or 2nd ed. Earthdawn source books you meet Burr-hide when the party falls into a pit in Vasgothia, kills a half horror (Ulk-men) they stumble upon thinking it was a horror. Then they find out it was just an indentured servant working the gold mine. Burr-hide sends you on a ridiculously risky quest to make up for killing his worker. Has to be Golden-Snout.
I bet that gold is the reason He and Alamais didn't get along.
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Honestly? Pretty sure that's a different dragon. Like I said, I'm not any sort of expert on the ED names of SR dragons, but I sure don't recall 'Burr-hide' in the list, especially not in reference to Lofwyr.
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To my knowledge, Lofwyr never appeared in FASA's Earthdawn products. He was always just Alamaise's brother lairing north of Barsaive.
Also, the reason they didn't get along has at its core been simply that they were brothers, and Alamais always resented Lofwyr for being the older and superior of the two (which would explain his abandoning the north for Barsaive).
Burr-Hide doesn't seem to describe Lofwyr's appearance. He's a sleek, golden dragon (Hence the name Gold Master). The name burr hide suggests something else.
That said, Lofwyr did/does respect Hestaby. He is darwinian, but he is also a wyrm of honor. Hestaby sullied her honor, and had to be punished. It is a testament that he even contemplated and consulted others as to her fate, when he was much less troubled in punishing Sirrurg and Alamais.
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It's just a guess based on personality, color, and location. It does say in ED Alamais had a brother in Vasgothia who chased him out and that's why they had bad blood but there isn't any reference to Lofwyr and there could have been other siblings.
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Ah, yes. That's the name of the land where Lofwyr lived.
Was Burr-Hide gold? Because that name seems more likely to describe Kaltenstein or some other German dragon.
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Yes Burr-hide was gold.
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Could be, then. The idea fits until it doesn't (however that may happen).