Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: tequila on <09-25-14/1552:03>
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http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/E-CAT27003E_SG-Errata.pdf?4713c7
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Well, they nerfed commanding voice again. The Stolen Souls (overpriced) version of commanding voice remains. The Street Grimoire version was competely changed. Name, effect, everything.
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The removed the ability to choose an additional power from Beast's Way. Now I have to redo my character again in chummer. Dammit! >:(
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Ok I'm glad they finally did this, but this is less than half the errata needed. They fixed the spells, but didn't change or correct any of adept powers besides commanding voice. Ways are still stupid.
Unless you really think counter strike should cost twice as much as riposte, for some reason.
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I like the direction of the changes. It seems like it's a rebalancing pass more than anything else. As Prometheus pointed out, there is still a lot more that needs to be errata'd, but hopefully this won't be the last time we get an update to the material.
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Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
Yes I actually need to do that to make my plot work. -_- I'm fine with the less-powerful form though, where the attributes aren't all horribly overrated.
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I was really expecting something less than 20 Karma for the Ways. I find the cost for Mystic Adept especially amusing. With my build, where I needed Mentor Spirit, I could either get Magician's Way and save 1 PP, or buy the extra PP (I could only afford 5 with the two qualities) and then have 15 more Karma to spend. Yeah I'd "save" another .5 (at most) PP if I later improved my MAG by 2 but... It just doesn't feel worth it for Mystic Adepts.
I assume when you're building an adept and may want things like martial arts and the like, dropping the 20 karma is difficult too. Maybe not as bad.
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None of the ways are worth it, period. Consider that Mentor spirit typically gets you .5 PP.
You probably shouldn't have a Quality that costs 20 Karma. It's simply too big a chunk of things at chargen, and 40 pts is stupid after chargen. (and then they hedge this, but only sorta, with this retcon at GM discretion thingie....wut?) They probably should be a quality, period, and 20 is too much, period. Also, having the benefit be so variable (1/2 of one level, which varies imensely) is absolutely crazy.
The fact an adept has to pay for Way to get certain metamagics, enhancements is also stupid....mages just pick one they want to grab per initiation. What's wrong with that for adepts?
The Way system is so wrong, I can't think of anything right about it.
Drain codes and other spell weirdness probably should have been a priority, becuase they were jsut the most obvious fix. But if you're just saving adept power re-balancing and Way errata for another pass......please tell us that. Cuz otherwise I'm worried you think it's just fine the way it is.
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20 karma = 10 BP, which was the Way price in 4th as I remember. And given the PP discount is not outrageous in most games, outside of Street level. IMO of course
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yup if you arent making your karma back in PP discounts, you're in the wrong way. Also it injects a little flavor into your old boring physad. Sure some of the ways are better than others, but that doesn't make them all worthless. To the right player the ways are not only a nice bonus but an entire character concept! I've been working on a few way of the beast adepts myself.
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The Way of the Warrior is very useful for a combat-oriented type as well; halving all penalties from War/Violence aspected areas? I'll take it!
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i just like the thought of keratin control with the two karma claws, from way of the beast, to have distinctive style and have a lion's mane and claws. Also the option to F with the decker after his first VR session, *go from clean cut to hobo beard asap and be like "Drek chummer do you know how long you've been in there?!"
There is RP gold in every way. There may just not be as much power game mileage as others would like
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20 karma = 10 BP, which was the Way price in 4th as I remember. And given the PP discount is not outrageous in most games, outside of Street level. IMO of course
I don't think that's true, no. At least, in terms of qualities. For one thing, you were allowed 35 BPs of qualities, and now 25 karma pts of qualities. If anything, 1 karma is worht several BPs.
yup if you arent making your karma back in PP discounts, you're in the wrong way. Also it injects a little flavor into your old boring physad. Sure some of the ways are better than others, but that doesn't make them all worthless. To the right player the ways are not only a nice bonus but an entire character concept! I've been working on a few way of the beast adepts myself.
Loosely, a PP is worth 13 or 16 karma. It's hard to get more than .75 PP from a Way. I think you can get up to 1.5 in certain very limited circumstance, but that's jut the point, it's very limited, only works if you build your character in a very particular way. And I don't think too many people will be able to start with it, so, it's really 40 karma.
It's fine if you want to do it for character reasons. But game mechanically, it's awful.
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There is RP gold in every way. There may just not be as much power game mileage as others would like
Expecting something to be mechanically good and not overpriced is not "wanting a lot of 'power game mileage'".
I apologize, that was poor wording on my part. Power gaming does carry with it negative meanings i didn't intend at writing. What i mean is that not everything to needs to be equally effective all the time. The core book has plenty of positive qualities that aren't as good as others. Granted i don't know how ways worked in 4th, but i like niche items and they have value to the right build.
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I don't know about equal, but it helps a lot if all the powers have about the same power level per PP --other wise you wind up with good and bad choices, and in the end, if you want to do a something characterful, you wind up being less powerful than someone who made more optimal, min/max choices. I'd prefer that doesn't be the way of it.
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I apologize, that was poor wording on my part. Power gaming does carry with it negative meanings i didn't intend at writing. What i mean is that not everything to needs to be equally effective all the time. The core book has plenty of positive qualities that aren't as good as others. Granted i don't know how ways worked in 4th, but i like niche items and they have value to the right build.
The 4th edition Ways were worth taking. In addition to the 25% discount which applied to all ranks of all powers on the Way list, they provided bonuses to a limited selection of metamagics and access to Way restricted adept powers that didn't require initiation. And notably, that discount could apply to Improved Reflexes for Warrior's and Magician's Way adepts. (Mostly cause Magician's Way adepts could duplicate some of the effects of another Way.) The 5th edition version explicitly cannot.
I don't mind flavorful, niche stuff. And I agree that not everything needs to be equally good at all things. But if one gets out of it less than they put into it, there's a balance issue. Currently, the ways are just flavor. I can roleplay that and spend my karma in better places. The worst IMHO is magician's way. There's no real reason to take it as a mystic adept (it gives you access to metamagics you already have access to), and it's about as useless as tits on a bull for a standard adept. At 20 karma, they should be fairly awesome. But they really aren't.
-Ariketh
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I think the confusion that I'm experiencing with the Ways is that they're Qualities, which means that after character creation the cost of the Ways should double. Unless I missed something in the errata document, that still holds true. Which makes Ways REALLY expensive after character creation. And during character creation, it chews up 20 of your 25 available Karma (not counting negative qualities) which means that you can't get a Way and also a Martial Art, or you can get a Way and a Mentor Spirit and that's it (not counting the ways that give mentor spirits of course). I mean sure, people can (and probably should) pick up negative qualities - they're an important part of the game. But they shouldn't be forced on someone.
So I was really hoping for clarification that the Way costs would stay the same even after character creation.
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I think my main problem is that a Way is a quality anyways. If it was just something that was like buying Power Points for Mystic Adepts, I would be fine with it. When you have to sink 20 of your available 25 Karma for Positive Qualities into a Way, you can't get some of the really useful (and flavorful) positive qualities because you are already maxed out. I mean, Speaker's Way adepts can't even get First Impression or Blandness. Infiltration Adepts can't get Catlike. I think like 90% of the qualities are above 5 Karma, and those are usually the ones with more flavor.
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I introduced Ways as Qualities back in the day because...well...a Quality was the only way (pun intended) to kind of work them into the system. With a brand new edition there could have been other ways to handle it -- since you're essentially introducing all new costs and mechanics and stuff (I would've liked to have seen them tied to Initiating, personally) -- but the decision seems to have been that Qualities was the easiest way to handle it.
My biggest issue with it is, similarly to yours, the cap on Positive Qualities. That sort of thing is, fortunately, easily house rules for most games.
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I'm doubly stunned; their cascading farkup of revisions that is Commanding Voice &/or Authoritative Whatever and the untouched Ways.
It's like no one there reads any of the boards or plays the game...
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I apologize, that was poor wording on my part. Power gaming does carry with it negative meanings i didn't intend at writing. What i mean is that not everything to needs to be equally effective all the time. The core book has plenty of positive qualities that aren't as good as others. Granted i don't know how ways worked in 4th, but i like niche items and they have value to the right build.
The 4th edition Ways were worth taking. In addition to the 25% discount which applied to all ranks of all powers on the Way list, they provided bonuses to a limited selection of metamagics and access to Way restricted adept powers that didn't require initiation. And notably, that discount could apply to Improved Reflexes for Warrior's and Magician's Way adepts. (Mostly cause Magician's Way adepts could duplicate some of the effects of another Way.) The 5th edition version explicitly cannot.
I don't mind flavorful, niche stuff. And I agree that not everything needs to be equally good at all things. But if one gets out of it less than they put into it, there's a balance issue. Currently, the ways are just flavor. I can roleplay that and spend my karma in better places. The worst IMHO is magician's way. There's no real reason to take it as a mystic adept (it gives you access to metamagics you already have access to), and it's about as useless as tits on a bull for a standard adept. At 20 karma, they should be fairly awesome. But they really aren't.
-Ariketh
Correction -- they only applied to Mag/2 powers, but they applied to all the levels of the power. They were also comparatively much cheaper. I think it could be argued Ways were actually too good in 4th.......but that's no excuse to make them useless now.
But generally, everything you said was spot on.
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I introduced Ways as Qualities back in the day because...well...a Quality was the only way (pun intended) to kind of work them into the system. With a brand new edition there could have been other ways to handle it -- since you're essentially introducing all new costs and mechanics and stuff (I would've liked to have seen them tied to Initiating, personally) -- but the decision seems to have been that Qualities was the easiest way to handle it.
My biggest issue with it is, similarly to yours, the cap on Positive Qualities. That sort of thing is, fortunately, easily house rules for most games.
Yeah, they shouldn't haven't been qualities. Partly jsut because, unlike mentor spirit or ambidexterity, I think it's more natural to evolve into a Way than to start with it, or at least just as good.
It's not like there's no precedent, though -- Martial Arts isn't a Quality.
Not sure it's worth it even at a flat 20 karma pts, though. Maybe after you've already initiated quite a few times, and the discounts are right in line with what you wanted to do anyway.
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Honestly, I was really disappointed with both ways and martial arts - they just don't really seem worth it. Which makes me sad. I loved martial arts in 3rd, which was the last edition I played.
If either show up in a game I'm in, it's likely due to house rules. Which I can then post if people like. :)
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I think the confusion that I'm experiencing with the Ways is that they're Qualities, which means that after character creation the cost of the Ways should double. Unless I missed something in the errata document, that still holds true. Which makes Ways REALLY expensive after character creation. And during character creation, it chews up 20 of your 25 available Karma (not counting negative qualities) which means that you can't get a Way and also a Martial Art, or you can get a Way and a Mentor Spirit and that's it (not counting the ways that give mentor spirits of course). I mean sure, people can (and probably should) pick up negative qualities - they're an important part of the game. But they shouldn't be forced on someone.
So I was really hoping for clarification that the Way costs would stay the same even after character creation.
Do you mean you cannot take a Martial Arts karma-wise?
As for Martial Arts, Killstring, I like that they aren't a deliberate must and they still contain nice things. In SR4, a melee fighter HAD to take two Martial Arts and take +3 DV total.
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I think the confusion that I'm experiencing with the Ways is that they're Qualities, which means that after character creation the cost of the Ways should double. Unless I missed something in the errata document, that still holds true. Which makes Ways REALLY expensive after character creation. And during character creation, it chews up 20 of your 25 available Karma (not counting negative qualities) which means that you can't get a Way and also a Martial Art, or you can get a Way and a Mentor Spirit and that's it (not counting the ways that give mentor spirits of course). I mean sure, people can (and probably should) pick up negative qualities - they're an important part of the game. But they shouldn't be forced on someone.
So I was really hoping for clarification that the Way costs would stay the same even after character creation.
Do you mean you cannot take a Martial Arts karma-wise?
As for Martial Arts, Killstring, I like that they aren't a deliberate must and they still contain nice things. In SR4, a melee fighter HAD to take two Martial Arts and take +3 DV total.
In fairness, I haven't seen them used at a table yet, and I never bumped into them in SR4, so I can't make the comparison. I will say that Shadow Block is sexy as hell, and yes, I find a martial arts maneuver in an RPG supplement amorously attractive, whachoo gonna do 'bout it? 8)
I'll look at them again, and see if I can figure out why they're awesome. As I prefer things to be such. :)
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As for Martial Arts, Killstring, I like that they aren't a deliberate must and they still contain nice things.
They weren't an absolute or deliberate must before.
In SR4, a melee fighter HAD to take two Martial Arts and take +3 DV total.
Provide proof in the form of quotes stating that taking a Martial Art was a prerequisite for playing a melee-oriented warrior character.
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"had to be taken, assuming you wanted to use the potential of your character effectively" would probably be accurate. +3 DV is really much. So yeah, if you wanted to melee someone, get Martial Arts, high Str and good Weapon/Adept powers. That was SR4.
I guess, Martial Arts were very strong and cost effectiv in 4th. My main drawback on Martial Arts in SR 5 is, that it is a pain in the a** to figure out, what excactly a martial art does and when you finally do, it does not sound that awesome. Plus 27 Karma for the whole style is a lot. You could use the karma for nearly getting a Skill up to 8, which is usually just as good.
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They still did not have to be taken at all. They helped and they were good enough to be worth their cost, but were in no way a requirement whether through a quotable rules requirement or an effectiveness requirement.
They weren't even required to play a martial artist character using one of the styles listed among them. All that took was making a character with high ranks in the appropriate melee combat skill (with a Martial Arts specialization in the case of Unarmed Combat) and stating that that was the style your character used.
Flavor is good, but if something is a quality which gives a mechanical benefit it needs to be very good to justify spending the points and the cost needs to be low enough to be worth what you get. The cost-benefit ratio was about right in 4th.
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Of course there was no rules requirement for taking MAs. There are no rules requiring you to take anything at all. You can play with Attributes at 1 and Skills at 0.
But in regards to effectiveness, MAs for higher DV rank very far up. So from a standpoint of effectiveness, taking MAs was pretty good, better probably, than improving skills beyond a certain point or increasing your Str further. You did not have to buy them as Qualities, as you could simply learn them later for Karma and Money. So, no problems there. And 10 Karma for DV+1 seems really good, especially if it's DV+1 for your main combat skill.
MAs in SR5 on the other hand are much more situational, the effects much smaller. So it's a tough question, if you benefit from a MA more than sinking your Karma into Skills, Qualities and such things.
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And melee in general needs much less of a focus to be effective in SR5. Moderately high STR (6+, including augmentations) and a good weapon means you're able to do damage enough for it to be usable. In SR4, you needed MA or Critical Strike and high STR to be worth it, and it was still questionable due to the drawbacks (only a bit lessened in 5th) combined with the investment necessary.
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You could still be effective enough without using them. The Martial Arts before were just good enough to be worth bothering to purchase instead of just saying you're a martial artist, and that was with everything one could gain from them and the costs as they were. 27 karma is simply ridiculous for a few little niche modifications.
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Well, I guess we both have different requirements on "effectiveness" but the same view on the MAs ;) So let's keep it at your resumé.
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Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed. >:(
Single type Para-form like the Examples were giving was IMHO a great alternative to a gimped form of Shapechange which is what we end up with.
Ways IMHO are still too expensive, I'd like to see them reduced down to 15 each & see the power choice options expanded since some are like 7 powers while others are 12. I'd like to see them all have the same # of .5 & 1.0 listed powers. Like say 9 & 3 each to match the best current way list.
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And melee in general needs much less of a focus to be effective in SR5. Moderately high STR (6+, including augmentations) and a good weapon means you're able to do damage enough for it to be usable. In SR4, you needed MA or Critical Strike and high STR to be worth it, and it was still questionable due to the drawbacks (only a bit lessened in 5th) combined with the investment necessary.
That was a strength of the 4e system. There were a lot of different routes to being an effective melee character. By removing multiple levels of critical strike and multiple dv levels from martial arts they reduced the number of options drastically. Melee is more powerful in 5e but it is orders of magnitude worse for probably the majority of people who wanted to play a melee character because the largest archetype normal strength phys adept got crapped on so the troll could shine.
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You could still be effective enough without using them. The Martial Arts before were just good enough to be worth bothering to purchase instead of just saying you're a martial artist, and that was with everything one could gain from them and the costs as they were. 27 karma is simply ridiculous for a few little niche modifications.
You don't have to buy all the techniques in a style, though. And some of the techniques offer tactical choices you quite simply don't have access to other than through martial arts; Clinch is a good example of this. The ability to be able to not only negate Reach bonuses but actively turn them against the attacker can be huge for an unarmed combatant, for example, and a single technique only costs 7 karma.
Finishing Move, while expensive at -10 Initiative and -1 Edge, has the potential to allow you to take out an opponent in a single attack; this could be equally tactically huge, as taking out that one guard before he has a chance to sound an alarm (only requires a thought, after all, what with DNI and the like) can be the difference between a successful mission and a failed one.
It feels to me like you're being a little hyperbolic in this case; are Martial Arts the be-all, end-all of close combat in SR5? Absolutely not. Do they offer interesting (and admittely some rather useless) options for a relatively acceptable cost? In my opinion, yes.
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Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed. >:(
Because this brings it back to the level (Critter) Form was at in 4th?
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Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed. >:(
Paracritters have magical powers, which the subject would gain of the spells would gain if they worked with paracritters. That's opening a huge can of worms...
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Bah. *houserules a (Paracritter) Form spell for Awakened NPCs*
I'm still not getting why the it was nerfed. >:(
Paracritters have magical powers, which the subject would gain of the spells would gain if they worked with paracritters. That's opening a huge can of worms...
Exhibit A: Just about every Polymorph-related thread for previous editions of D&D.
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Exhibit A: Just about every Polymorph-related thread for previous editions of D&D.
I don't know if that was in support of or against a paracritter option for (critter) form, but since you bring up D&D...
If I recall correctly, pretty much every version of shapechange that allowed supernatural forms came with the caveat that you only gained their natural, non-magical physical abilities. So, you could take the form of a dragon, but you would not get its breath weapon, but you would get its claw/claw/bite/tail/wing attack. I'm less clear on if you got flight, but I don't think so (I hated playing magic users of any stripe because the spell memorization/slot system rubbed me the wrong way).
So for SR, I would think Dragon form would allow you to look like a dragon and gain their bite and claw attacks, but not gain their elemental attack, dragonspeech, hardened armor, or anything else that isn't normally a feature of a mundane critter (effectively armor, natural weapons, Enhanced Senses, and winged flight). Becoming a Shark or other sub-aquatic animal would grant you the ability to breathe water (or hold your breath a really long time in the case of dolphins and whales) as well as an enhanced swim speed, though the stat block doesn't indicate that, nor does it indicate the ability to fly for critters that should have that ability, so these things aren't so much powers as innate qualities I guess.
Of course, with the +/-2 BOD requirement of the spell, you aren't going to see much in the way of Dragons (though a 13+ BOD Troll could pull off a Feathered Serpent form) so treat the Dragon example as more of an extreme case. I'd also rule that it would have to have a physical form, so no ghost/fog/ball of light forms, etc.
As likely evidenced by the forum posts you mention, there may be edge cases (this paracritter has flight, but no wings, do I still get flight? No as it's a supernatural effect, etc) but it is not broken or otherwise impossible to implement sanely.
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So for SR, I would think Dragon form
See, I'd go with non-sapient paracritters to begin with. So no Ghoul, Vampire or Dracoform.
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So for SR, I would think Dragon form
See, I'd go with non-sapient paracritters to begin with. So no Ghoul, Vampire or Dracoform.
Drakes aren't sapient, last I checked. Naga and sasquatch are, however.
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"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.
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"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.
No, the other drakes. Fire and ice and sea drakes. The non-sentient dracoform critters that live on Kamchatka, Iceland/Greenland, etc.
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So for SR, I would think Dragon form
See, I'd go with non-sapient paracritters to begin with. So no Ghoul, Vampire or Dracoform.
I could see making non-sapience a requirement. To me, it's fine either way.
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"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.
No, the other drakes. Fire and ice and sea drakes. The non-sentient dracoform critters that live on Kamchatka, Iceland/Greenland, etc.
So you mean the ones from SR4 Running Wild, not the Dracoforms in SR5 Core.
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"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.
No, the other drakes. Fire and ice and sea drakes. The non-sentient dracoform critters that live on Kamchatka, Iceland/Greenland, etc.
So you mean the ones from SR4 Running Wild, not the Dracoforms in SR5 Core.
I mean the ones from there, and from all the other editions as well.
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Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.
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Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.
Given that we're talking about Shadowrun, and they are canon critters in most editions... It's just a matter of statting it up over the course of 15-30 minutes, as one hasn't been released yet. Sure, the GM can go 'nope, not for you' about it; they can do that about practically anything in the setting. GM discretion isn't an automatic 'no'.
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Regardless - the confusion was about the use of the term "drake."
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20 karma = 10 BP, which was the Way price in 4th as I remember. And given the PP discount is not outrageous in most games, outside of Street level. IMO of course
I don't think that's true, no. At least, in terms of qualities. For one thing, you were allowed 35 BPs of qualities, and now 25 karma pts of qualities. If anything, 1 karma is worht several BPs.
Well not to mention that you start off with 400 bp.
But also the ways back in 4th gave you access to a super adept power, generally, along with discounting even .25 cost abilities and every level of an ability.
Now the most you can earn back is 1.5 pp, provided each power you pick is a 1pp and you have 6 magic points. But most have really only .5 pp powers and maybe one or two 1pp.
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Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.
Given that we're talking about Shadowrun, and they are canon critters in most editions... It's just a matter of statting it up over the course of 15-30 minutes, as one hasn't been released yet.
You are missing the point. Please read my posts better.
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Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.
Given that we're talking about Shadowrun, and they are canon critters in most editions... It's just a matter of statting it up over the course of 15-30 minutes, as one hasn't been released yet.
You are missing the point. Please read my posts better.
And you actively cut out a portion of what I replied with. I'm not missing your point, I'm of the mindset that it's invalid.
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And you actively cut out a portion of what I replied with.
You mean the part that was irrelevant to the argument? Yeah, shame on him.
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And you actively cut out a portion of what I replied with.
You mean the part that was irrelevant to the argument? Yeah, shame on him.
It was a response to his irrelevant comment on the topic, so I guess it could be considered irrelevant as well. Thanks for pointing out how both were useless to the point at hand!
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No, thank you for being polite about people disagreeing with you on something.
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None of this has to do with the topic - so rather than letting this thread get locked, let's quit bickering over tone and verbiage on the forums.
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Under RAW, Ways are vastly to expensive to be viable, forget Ways until they have their cost decreased, they are simply an epic waste of karma. Not one of the granted powers is worth 20 quality points.
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I got Adepts running out of easy initiations, which would have made 20 karma at chargen (and spending a few more on getting a quality aftewards, so basically a price of ~25 karma) actually worth it for saving a total of 1+ PP. Granted, I allowed them to start with extra karma spent, so they easily got 3 Initiations (didn't allow more), but the guy who's currently almost at 5 is really restricted already. Only reason he got that far was because I allowed the Nine Paths to serve as a replacement of the Arcana+Intuition Extended Test, since there's 45% max chance to make that roll, and only the first few Paths. Without that ruling, he'd already have had to pay a decent bit of karma for training Arcana since I don't allow Edge on Initiation tests.
So yeah, definitely at the point where 20 karma for a way would actually have been worth it for him, to get more punch out of his PP.
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While I agree that 20 Karma feels like too much (15 would be more reasonable, and perhaps making them similar to martial arts in that they don't count as Qualities would be better), there are some interesting powers.
- Supernatural Prowess (Athlete's Way Metamagic) really starts kicking in at Initiate Grade 3+ (effective Agility 9+ for a Combat Turn, 4+ times per day)
- Claws (Beast's Way Enhancement), far as I can tell, seems compatible with things like Elemental Body and cyberimplant Spurs (or at least until they errata-nerf it 9 months from now).
- Shadow Touch (Invisible Way Enhancement) means you don't have to wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, and Stillness of the Void (Invisible Way Metamagic) is valuable when trying to sneak up on mages.
- Fae-Touched (Speaker's Way Metamagic), at higher grades, will boost your face's effective Charisma, while Presence can be used to boost, say, Negotiation; again, getting stronger at higher grades
On a semi-related note, I don't really get the Hot Qi enhancement: the corebook doesn't mention a limit on the force of a single focus, just a [Magic x 5] limit on total Force - and the same goes for SR4A.
Only reason he got that far was because I allowed the Nine Paths to serve as a replacement of the Arcana+Intuition Extended Test, since there's 45% max chance to make that roll, and only the first few Paths. Without that ruling, he'd already have had to pay a decent bit of karma for training Arcana since I don't allow Edge on Initiation tests.
So yeah, definitely at the point where 20 karma for a way would actually have been worth it for him, to get more punch out of his PP.
I got Arcana 4 at chargen: while writing a Thesis would have required teamwork tests from an instructor, I can get 6 hits on average in 3 months, so Initiating itself isn't the issue. And yes, getting Beast's Way did save me 0.75PP for 15 Karma (since it also gave me a totem), compared to 20 Karma post-discount for my upcoming 5th Initiation.
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15 for a non-quality restricted way would I expect be viable.
I mean if you look at how power points are priced, you have to see very clearly you need to be at least a mid grade initiate before you can ever possibly begin getting your points worth out of them, and that assumes you can get 100% effect, which isn't possible for many of the ways as the power selection is to restricted.
Though making it non-quality opens up a quality loop hole. Which is something I don't think would be a great, though to be fair it's a small hole.
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It's not just about getting your points out of it karma-wise though. You also get extra options, and avoiding an Initiation for a Power Point means you don't have to spend months performing it and maybe even have to spend karma to raise your Arcana high enough.
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Would making Way a "positive quality that isn't a quality", like Martial Art styles, work?
Whether at character generation or in game, martial art styles cost 7 karma and you gain the style and technique. The same could be applied to Ways as a house rule, no?
Would that make it too good in game? Is 20 karma for a way too cheap?
I must admit I ki d of like that there are certain things in the game that doesn't make sense at character generation; maybe a standard runner shouldn't already be a follower of a Way out of character generation except for the occasional case, and that this is something that mechanically represents a story driven character advancement.
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I'd say it's not too cheap but definitely worth it in the end for some builds. It takes a while to get the bang for your buck after all. And for those that do want it at chargen, allowing it outside the PQ-allotment is nice too.
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Yeah I think making it like martial arts would work a lot better.
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In speaking with one of the developers, the intent of the Ways is that they do not double in cost after character creation. I believe there is a blurb about existing characters getting to buy the Ways retroactively, but it's phrased poorly - "existing" shouldn't be in there at all.