[Ariketh]

I apologize, that was poor wording on my part. Power gaming does carry with it negative meanings i didn't intend at writing. What i mean is that not everything to needs to be equally effective all the time. The core book has plenty of positive qualities that aren't as good as others. Granted i don't know how ways worked in 4th, but i like niche items and they have value to the right build.

The 4th edition Ways were worth taking. In addition to the 25% discount which applied to all ranks of all powers on the Way list, they provided bonuses to a limited selection of metamagics and access to Way restricted adept powers that didn't require initiation. And notably, that discount could apply to Improved Reflexes for Warrior's and Magician's Way adepts. (Mostly cause Magician's Way adepts could duplicate some of the effects of another Way.) The 5th edition version explicitly cannot.

I don't mind flavorful, niche stuff. And I agree that not everything needs to be equally good at all things. But if one gets out of it less than they put into it, there's a balance issue. Currently, the ways are just flavor. I can roleplay that and spend my karma in better places. The worst IMHO is magician's way. There's no real reason to take it as a mystic adept (it gives you access to metamagics you already have access to), and it's about as useless as tits on a bull for a standard adept. At 20 karma, they should be fairly awesome. But they really aren't.

-Ariketh

[Namikaze]

I think the confusion that I'm experiencing with the Ways is that they're Qualities, which means that after character creation the cost of the Ways should double.  Unless I missed something in the errata document, that still holds true.  Which makes Ways REALLY expensive after character creation.  And during character creation, it chews up 20 of your 25 available Karma (not counting negative qualities) which means that you can't get a Way and also a Martial Art, or you can get a Way and a Mentor Spirit and that's it (not counting the ways that give mentor spirits of course).  I mean sure, people can (and probably should) pick up negative qualities - they're an important part of the game.  But they shouldn't be forced on someone.

So I was really hoping for clarification that the Way costs would stay the same even after character creation.

[8-bit]

I think my main problem is that a Way is a quality anyways. If it was just something that was like buying Power Points for Mystic Adepts, I would be fine with it. When you have to sink 20 of your available 25 Karma for Positive Qualities into a Way, you can't get some of the really useful (and flavorful) positive qualities because you are already maxed out. I mean, Speaker's Way adepts can't even get First Impression or Blandness. Infiltration Adepts can't get Catlike. I think like 90% of the qualities are above 5 Karma, and those are usually the ones with more flavor.

[Critias]

I introduced Ways as Qualities back in the day because...well...a Quality was the only way (pun intended) to kind of work them into the system.  With a brand new edition there could have been other ways to handle it -- since you're essentially introducing all new costs and mechanics and stuff (I would've liked to have seen them tied to Initiating, personally) -- but the decision seems to have been that Qualities was the easiest way to handle it. 

My biggest issue with it is, similarly to yours, the cap on Positive Qualities.  That sort of thing is, fortunately, easily house rules for most games. 

[adzling]

I'm doubly stunned; their cascading farkup of revisions that is Commanding Voice &/or Authoritative Whatever and the untouched Ways.
It's like no one there reads any of the boards or plays the game...

[Sir_Prometheus]

I apologize, that was poor wording on my part. Power gaming does carry with it negative meanings i didn't intend at writing. What i mean is that not everything to needs to be equally effective all the time. The core book has plenty of positive qualities that aren't as good as others. Granted i don't know how ways worked in 4th, but i like niche items and they have value to the right build.

The 4th edition Ways were worth taking. In addition to the 25% discount which applied to all ranks of all powers on the Way list, they provided bonuses to a limited selection of metamagics and access to Way restricted adept powers that didn't require initiation. And notably, that discount could apply to Improved Reflexes for Warrior's and Magician's Way adepts. (Mostly cause Magician's Way adepts could duplicate some of the effects of another Way.) The 5th edition version explicitly cannot.

I don't mind flavorful, niche stuff. And I agree that not everything needs to be equally good at all things. But if one gets out of it less than they put into it, there's a balance issue. Currently, the ways are just flavor. I can roleplay that and spend my karma in better places. The worst IMHO is magician's way. There's no real reason to take it as a mystic adept (it gives you access to metamagics you already have access to), and it's about as useless as tits on a bull for a standard adept. At 20 karma, they should be fairly awesome. But they really aren't.

-Ariketh

Correction -- they only applied to Mag/2 powers, but they applied to all the levels of the power.  They were also comparatively much cheaper.  I think it could be argued Ways were actually too good in 4th.......but that's no excuse to make them useless now.

But generally, everything you said was spot on.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I introduced Ways as Qualities back in the day because...well...a Quality was the only way (pun intended) to kind of work them into the system.  With a brand new edition there could have been other ways to handle it -- since you're essentially introducing all new costs and mechanics and stuff (I would've liked to have seen them tied to Initiating, personally) -- but the decision seems to have been that Qualities was the easiest way to handle it. 

My biggest issue with it is, similarly to yours, the cap on Positive Qualities.  That sort of thing is, fortunately, easily house rules for most games.

Yeah, they shouldn't haven't been qualities.  Partly jsut because, unlike mentor spirit or ambidexterity, I think it's more natural to evolve into a Way than to start with it, or at least just as good.

It's not like there's no precedent, though -- Martial Arts isn't a Quality.

Not sure it's worth it even at a flat 20 karma pts, though.  Maybe after you've already initiated quite a few times, and the discounts are right in line with what you wanted to do anyway.

[Killstring]

Honestly, I was really disappointed with both ways and martial arts - they just don't really seem worth it. Which makes me sad. I loved martial arts in 3rd, which was the last edition I played.

If either show up in a game I'm in, it's likely due to house rules. Which I can then post if people like.

[Michael Chandra]

I think the confusion that I'm experiencing with the Ways is that they're Qualities, which means that after character creation the cost of the Ways should double.  Unless I missed something in the errata document, that still holds true.  Which makes Ways REALLY expensive after character creation.  And during character creation, it chews up 20 of your 25 available Karma (not counting negative qualities) which means that you can't get a Way and also a Martial Art, or you can get a Way and a Mentor Spirit and that's it (not counting the ways that give mentor spirits of course).  I mean sure, people can (and probably should) pick up negative qualities - they're an important part of the game.  But they shouldn't be forced on someone.

So I was really hoping for clarification that the Way costs would stay the same even after character creation.

Do you mean you cannot take a Martial Arts karma-wise?

As for Martial Arts, Killstring, I like that they aren't a deliberate must and they still contain nice things. In SR4, a melee fighter HAD to take two Martial Arts and take +3 DV total.

[Killstring]

I think the confusion that I'm experiencing with the Ways is that they're Qualities, which means that after character creation the cost of the Ways should double.  Unless I missed something in the errata document, that still holds true.  Which makes Ways REALLY expensive after character creation.  And during character creation, it chews up 20 of your 25 available Karma (not counting negative qualities) which means that you can't get a Way and also a Martial Art, or you can get a Way and a Mentor Spirit and that's it (not counting the ways that give mentor spirits of course).  I mean sure, people can (and probably should) pick up negative qualities - they're an important part of the game.  But they shouldn't be forced on someone.

So I was really hoping for clarification that the Way costs would stay the same even after character creation.

Do you mean you cannot take a Martial Arts karma-wise?

As for Martial Arts, Killstring, I like that they aren't a deliberate must and they still contain nice things. In SR4, a melee fighter HAD to take two Martial Arts and take +3 DV total.

In fairness, I haven't seen them used at a table yet, and I never bumped into them in SR4, so I can't make the comparison. I will say that Shadow Block is sexy as hell, and yes, I find a martial arts maneuver in an RPG supplement amorously attractive, whachoo gonna do 'bout it?

I'll look at them again, and see if I can figure out why they're awesome. As I prefer things to be such.

[All4BigGuns]

As for Martial Arts, Killstring, I like that they aren't a deliberate must and they still contain nice things.

They weren't an absolute or deliberate must before.

In SR4, a melee fighter HAD to take two Martial Arts and take +3 DV total.

Provide proof in the form of quotes stating that taking a Martial Art was a prerequisite for playing a melee-oriented warrior character.

[S.Miles]

"had to be taken, assuming you wanted to use the potential of your character effectively" would probably be accurate. +3 DV is really much. So yeah, if you wanted to melee someone, get Martial Arts, high Str and good Weapon/Adept powers. That was SR4.
I guess, Martial Arts were very strong and cost effectiv in 4th. My main drawback on Martial Arts in SR 5 is, that it is a pain in the a** to figure out, what excactly a martial art does and when you finally do, it does not sound that awesome. Plus 27 Karma for the whole style is a lot. You could use the karma for nearly getting a Skill up to 8, which is usually just as good.

[All4BigGuns]

They still did not have to be taken at all. They helped and they were good enough to be worth their cost, but were in no way a requirement whether through a quotable rules requirement or an effectiveness requirement.

They weren't even required to play a martial artist character using one of the styles listed among them. All that took was making a character with high ranks in the appropriate melee combat skill (with a Martial Arts specialization in the case of Unarmed Combat) and stating that that was the style your character used.

Flavor is good, but if something is a quality which gives a mechanical benefit it needs to be very good to justify spending the points and the cost needs to be low enough to be worth what you get. The cost-benefit ratio was about right in 4th.

[S.Miles]

Of course there was no rules requirement for taking MAs. There are no rules requiring you to take anything at all. You can play with Attributes at 1 and Skills at 0.
But in regards to effectiveness, MAs for higher DV rank very far up. So from a standpoint of effectiveness, taking MAs was pretty good, better probably, than improving skills beyond a certain point or increasing your Str further. You did not have to buy them as Qualities, as you could simply learn them later for Karma and Money. So, no problems there. And 10 Karma for DV+1 seems really good, especially if it's DV+1 for your main combat skill.

MAs in SR5 on the other hand are much more situational, the effects much smaller. So it's a tough question, if you benefit from a MA more than sinking your Karma into Skills, Qualities and such things.

[firebug]

And melee in general needs much less of a focus to be effective in SR5.  Moderately high STR (6+, including augmentations) and a good weapon means you're able to do damage enough for it to be usable.  In SR4, you needed MA or Critical Strike and high STR to be worth it, and it was still questionable due to the drawbacks (only a bit lessened in 5th) combined with the investment necessary.