Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Selentin on <11-27-15/2056:39>
-
New to the forums and to 5E (I played 1E/2E a ton, but haven't set foot in an SR game since then).
I've ready multiple threads where people claim, from a pure optimization perspective, that Magic: A is the "best" (against, talking from an optimization standpoint) choice.
TBH I find it a bit confusing. Doesn't it depend on whether or not you're talking a short game, or a full-length campaign? For a full-length campaign, it seems to me a character setting Abilities at a higher priority* would be superior. Attributes costs increase proportional to level, whereas, buying up more spells is a flat cost, and the number you can have is capped anyway.
Assuming the following...
- Use special attr points from your race choice to bump magic to 6
- Are playing a full-length campaign and not a convention game, one-shot, or brief mini-campaign
...how is picking attributes at a higher priority than magic not a more optimal choice? I honestly don't get it - please help.
* (useful for a mage, since every freaking attribute except, perhaps, STR, tends to be useful in some non-trivial way)
-
Bumping down magic in favor of higher attributes means you'll also need to increase metatype priority to get those special attribute points. This leads to lower skills on top of the already lowered ones from not having magic A.
It's generally accepted that the best priority for magicians/mysads is magic A, attributes B, skills C, with D and E dependent on personal preference. Humans can do attributes A, skills B, magic C, metatype D and resources E, but there's no way for non-humans to get a good balance of magic, skills and attributes without magic A (or sum to 10)
-
Good catch - I had an implicit, unstated assumption of Human as Metatype, which I should have made explicit, as I agree it is not really feasible with other races.
-
And that is why it is generally, Magic A, blah, blah, blah. With Sum to 10 you can make all kinds of none human casters that are completely viable.
-
CHA mages can easily dump LOG and not miss much.
LOG mages can have 1-2 CHA and still be fine because you don't usually alpha strike 8 bound spirits even as a shaman.
INT mages can dump both fairly easily but CHA is more valuable simply due to spirit binding.
All mages can dump AGI and STR. Won't miss STR, and I like to play mages who can shoot, but I'm in the minority with that.
Also 10 spells is typically really important for a versatile load out.
-
First off plenty of folks do Attribute A instead of magic A for all the reasons you would think.
You're gonna get a couple less spells, but in the long not a big deal.
My advice Avoid Aspected magic in 5th, and avoid Alchemy.
-
Hmmm
It seems that You US guys agreed on something else than us Germans :)
Here a lot of Chars I read of have Prio A in Attributes, very often B in Skills and C in Magic (or vice Versa)
With a Human as D or Elf /Dwarf as Prio C.
And when I check my own Chars (3 of them Full mages) all have Prio C in Magic
It seems that YMMV widely across the Sea :)
HokaHey
Medicineman
-
This may be surprise but most important thing in mage priorities is not to dump resources to E. 50 000 is barely enough to have useful armor, foci, car, electronics and so on to be competent.
-
This may be surprise but most important thing in mage priorities is not to dump resources to E. 50 000 is barely enough to have useful armor, foci, car, electronics and so on to be competent.
A You don't have to start fully equipped (a plain Armor Jacket is Ok for the first couple of Runs, it doesn't need to be YNT Softweave with el. Insulation, Elektrocromatic Mod, Fireproof and a concealed Holster)
B You can take in Debt for 5 Pts which is a total fo 31.000 ¥ to buy needed Equipment
C really expensive Things (like a good Fake SIN, beefed up Armor or a Car) can be bought after a few Runs
But yes, this surprises me, because I thought it is more Important for a Mage to be competent in things Magic (like Spellcasting and Summoning)
with a competent Dance
Medicineman
-
In a standard Priority character you've got to put an E somewhere and Resources is the least painful for most Magic characters. Get a disposable Commlink, an Armored Jacket and a cheap Cycle (couple karma or Bad Debit get you enough). Pick up a Lifestyle and a decent Fake SIN after the first run (or two). Generally 2 points of Edge are more valuable than 44,000 Nuyen to a Human Mage.
And for non-human mages obviously dumping Metatype isn't an option. Attributes E or Skills E is tough start for most runners. Honestly Skills E on a mage is going to be very frustrating to play.
-
I concur
I don't know why you assume that first couple of runs will be milk runs - season 5 missions is tough for mages , artifact rush plotline is deadly without good support. In debt quality AFAIK is banned in missions and I do not know home game with this allowance, but if it will be possible I would take this quality - mages are glass cannons and honestly you should be well geared from the start of the campign - low physical stats should be compensated in this way. Fake SIN 4 with licences for mages is imho must have for obvious reasons.
-
I don't know why you assume that first couple of runs will be milk runs -
My Years of Experience maybe ? ;)
The first Runs are neither supposed to be
Milk Runs nor deadly Runs that end in a TPK either.
In debt quality AFAIK is banned in missions and I do not know home game with this allowance,
And I know a lot of Rounds, not only my own ones ;)
and not only Homerounds.
Most of Games run at German Conventions stick to RAW and not Missions
Missions aren't the Alpha & Omega ! In fact most (I think) Non-American Players (and there's a lot of us !! ) don't use them at all or only as Part of an ongoing Campaign (like two of the 5 SR Groups I'm in)
A lot of People play Shadowrun without the limitations and restraints of Missions Rules there's a lot of Campaigns (even from former Editions which only need some conversion) that can be played
with a free Dance
Medicineman
-
I don't presume the first runs are milk runs, I just presume you get paid for them. If you're going to need a Fake SIN on your first run the GM should give you a heads up. If you're playing Missions then you don't need a Fake SIN for most of them, and in the Missions that do require a fake SIN there are in game ways to acquire them written into the Mission.
Lifestyles aren't needed until the run is over : ) Lifestyles are really just a way of simplifying the book keeping of day to day expenses, as long as you've got a few Nuyen in your pocket you can get through a single run.
-
By RAW (IIRC) you DO need a lifestyle to start ( Starting Money f.E.)
but You can start with a ...Streetlifestyle and as soon as the first Run is over, You upgrade immediately to whatever you like or can afford
with an upgrade Dance
Medicineman
-
By RAW (IIRC) you DO need a lifestyle to start ( Starting Money f.E.)
but You can start with a ...Streetlifestyle and as soon as the first Run is over, You upgrade immediately to whatever you like or can afford
with an upgrade Dance
Medicineman
Well that is much example of raw munchkinism, I we argue at this level I suppose should quit - there is no point to reasoning my statement with this much of metagaming.
-
How is Street lifestyle metagaming? ???
Lot's of runners have started with being new to the city the campaign plays in. It's only natural not to have an apartment waiting for you.
-
Good Bye !
....
Seriously,
what is Munchkinning at changing your Lifestyle Ingame ??
Lot of my Chars try to upgrade ingame ! For some that is the very reason for becoming Shadowrunners
I don't have such a Char, but I think it's a perfect Backgroundstory to have a char that is down on his Luck who starts with a Squatter or Low Lifestyle and who tries to "climb up the Ladder" (is that the right expression ? ) ....
with a raised-Eyebrow-Dance
Medicineman
-
Of all the things in this game that could be called "raw munchkinism," starting with poor lifestyle and upgrading it after making some money sure ain't on the list.
-
Uh, yeah, starting out in a coffin hotel and renting an apartment is really not particularly metagamey or powergamey. It's pretty much life as a Shadowrunner isn't it?
And, really, Lifestyle is purely a mechanical abstraction to reduce the bookeeping of day to day expenses. If you don't have a lifestyle (technically a Street lifestyle as Medicineman pointed out) you're simply paying as you go. No real pressing reason a character needs one out of the gate, pick one up with your first Payday.
-
Well that is much example of raw munchkinism, I we argue at this level I suppose should quit - there is no point to reasoning my statement with this much of metagaming.
Yeah, nobody gets your take on this.
RAW, The street lifestyle DOES count as a lifestyle. See page 95 in the core book. Furthermore, it makes a lot of sense in game. You get pretty desperate when you are sleeping in the gutter, mate enough so that you might do something shady. I actually start with no fake licenses and SIN when it is supposed to be the characters first run ever, is that munkinism? How would he aquire these items if he doesn't have the contacts.
-
Besides munchkinism for lifestyle using the core rulebook would be:
High Lifestyle, Cramped and Dangerous area for 7000
5D6 x 500¥ averages 17.5 or 8750nuyen
Yes, a risk because you could roll low but then again if you roll half a pip higher per die that's 10000 nuyen
<edit>of course doesn't work for trolls nor does it work well for a dwarf
-
RAW there is no mechanical consequences for take street life in most campaigns, besides possibility of few stun boxes on start first game due to enviromental damage. It's pure system cheating, on the same level as allergy to cryptonite( hey, it's RAW ! ) or other unlikely happen allergy factor.
Metagaming - designing character for specific campaign, with foreknowledge about few elements of game
Munchkinism- pure system cheating to achieve best results. Having 0 nuyen lifestyle at start of campaign is very much example of this.
-
Having a street lifestyle wouldn't be an official option if it was not meant to exist. Plain and simple.
Allergy to cryptonite is only valid if there is cryptonite in your campaign. Imaginary substances are not common or uncommon, they do not exist in the game world. And remember that negative qualities without any drawbacks do not grant karma. This is RAW.
-
So, what is drawback of having 0 nuyen lifestyle at start ? This is cheap cheat to roll lifestyle cost into the game. RAW it's perfect trick. Gamemaster cannot penalise you before game, so chapeu bas to medicineman for pointing out this trick.
-
"Upgrading lifestyle is munchkinism because you can take Allergy Kryptonite."
First: no you can't, I suggest you look at the tables regarding allergies. "Uncommon" has a definite meaning and guidelines. Interpreting "uncommon" as "something that doesn't exist at all" is in no way a reasonable reading.
Second: holy shit, what a strawman.
-
RAW there is no mechanical consequences for take street life in most campaigns, besides possibility of few stun boxes on start first game due to enviromental damage. It's pure system cheating, on the same level as allergy to cryptonite( hey, it's RAW ! ) or other unlikely happen allergy factor.
Metagaming - designing character for specific campaign, with foreknowledge about few elements of game
Munchkinism- pure system cheating to achieve best results. Having 0 nuyen lifestyle at start of campaign is very much example of this.
Do you even own the rulebook? Read it. I suggest you read page 56, which supports everyone here but you, then read page 369. Then try page 95. Quote one thing that even suggests that having a street level lifestyle is discouraged.
As far as what cash you start with up to 5000 AND street level says you get 1d6 x 20 as STARTING CASH FOR STREET LEVEL. That seems to insinuate that street level is supported for a starting level lifestyle level.
-
So, what is drawback of having 0 nuyen lifestyle at start ? This is cheap cheat to roll lifestyle cost into the game. RAW it's perfect trick. Gamemaster cannot penalise you before game, so chapeu bas to medicineman for pointing out this trick.
Less starting nuyen, taking damage from not getting enough comforts and necessities, and the social penalties from not having access to a shower.
-
So, what is drawback of having 0 nuyen lifestyle at start ? This is cheap cheat to roll lifestyle cost into the game. RAW it's perfect trick. Gamemaster cannot penalise you before game, so chapeu bas to medicineman for pointing out this trick.
Less starting nuyen, taking damage from not getting enough comforts and necessities, and the social penalties from not having access to a shower.
Not having a place for your stuff, Having to keep track of every Nuyen spent instead of handwaving into your lifestyle costs, not having a place for any pre-run activities (Alchemy, Summoning, whatever).
-
RAW there is no mechanical consequences for take street life in most campaigns, besides possibility of few stun boxes on start first game due to enviromental damage. It's pure system cheating, on the same level as allergy to cryptonite( hey, it's RAW ! ) or other unlikely happen allergy factor.
Metagaming - designing character for specific campaign, with foreknowledge about few elements of game
Munchkinism- pure system cheating to achieve best results. Having 0 nuyen lifestyle at start of campaign is very much example of this.
Do you even own the rulebook? Read it. I suggest you read page 56, which supports everyone here but you, then read page 369. Then try page 95. Quote one thing that even suggests that having a street level lifestyle is discouraged.
As far as what cash you start with up to 5000 AND street level says you get 1d6 x 20 as STARTING CASH FOR STREET LEVEL. That seems to insinuate that street level is supported for a starting level lifestyle level.
Well munchkinism is very much exploiting "RAW" . Yes you can take this, yes it's great way to roll lifestyle into game. I admitted this few times and you point RAW citation over and over. For me it's cheap trick to have cash for must-have gear in priority system for talented mages without cash. Having one or two stun boxes on first run is very good trade. Alchemy and Summoning RAW don't need specific place or lodge. To avoid misunderstanding - I am against this from common sense perspective. If you have other meaning of common sense that's your problem, not mine.
-
We could always try justifying why you'd be currently living a street lifestyle for a bit. For instance, your last run before campaign start went sour, and you've spent the past 3 months hidden in a bolt hole half a continent away from your usual stomping grounds. You got three shirts, a pair of pants, three pairs of socks, three pairs of underwear, a knife, a pistol, 40 bullets, an armor jacket, a burner 'link and 317 nuyen to your name, since that's the sum total of what was stashed in the bolt hole, plus what you didn't have to leave when the run went sour. Last week, the coffin hotel kicked you out, so you're pretty desperate for a run to get back on your feet and start establishing yourself in a new city.
Remember that one of the core assumptions is that most shadowrunners are SIN-less, and it really sucks being SIN-less. I'd wager that in-universe, it's the minority of runners that can afford a stable lifestyle of any sort, much less a high or luxury one.
-
seriously reductio ad absurdum arguments should not be used...
By RAW you can not pick Kryptonite as an allergy...it is neither common nor uncommon since it does not exist.
Many people fall back to RAW with shadowrun because this company is horrible at answering questions about RAI.
-
We could always try justifying why you'd be currently living a street lifestyle for a bit. For instance, your last run before campaign start went sour, and you've spent the past 3 months hidden in a bolt hole half a continent away from your usual stomping grounds. You got three shirts, a pair of pants, three pairs of socks, three pairs of underwear, a knife, a pistol, 40 bullets, an armor jacket, a burner 'link and 317 nuyen to your name, since that's the sum total of what was stashed in the bolt hole, plus what you didn't have to leave when the run went sour. Last week, the coffin hotel kicked you out, so you're pretty desperate for a run to get back on your feet and start establishing yourself in a new city.
Remember that one of the core assumptions is that most shadowrunners are SIN-less, and it really sucks being SIN-less. I'd wager that in-universe, it's the minority of runners that can afford a stable lifestyle of any sort, much less a high or luxury one.
So playing a guy who is down on his luck and desperate so that he will do illegal things doesn't make sense to you? Probably because you don't understand role playing. You are just thinking roll playing, where people do things to 'exploit' the rules. But seriously, what do you save? If you choose low lifestyle you would pay 2000 but start with around 600, max being 1000 (so only paying 1000) or paying nothing and getting a measly 120 at most. You think saving 1000 nuyen is munchkining? That is half a karma point. I think you are being a bit pedantic.
Which is what we have been trying to point out. He wont get it.
We could always try justifying why you'd be currently living a street lifestyle for a bit. For instance, your last run before campaign start went sour, and you've spent the past 3 months hidden in a bolt hole half a continent away from your usual stomping grounds. You got three shirts, a pair of pants, three pairs of socks, three pairs of underwear, a knife, a pistol, 40 bullets, an armor jacket, a burner 'link and 317 nuyen to your name, since that's the sum total of what was stashed in the bolt hole, plus what you didn't have to leave when the run went sour. Last week, the coffin hotel kicked you out, so you're pretty desperate for a run to get back on your feet and start establishing yourself in a new city.
Remember that one of the core assumptions is that most shadowrunners are SIN-less, and it really sucks being SIN-less. I'd wager that in-universe, it's the minority of runners that can afford a stable lifestyle of any sort, much less a high or luxury one.
-
Well munchkinism is very much exploiting "RAW" .
This is hardly worth calling an exploit.
-
Well munchkinism is very much exploiting "RAW" .
This is hardly worth calling an exploit.
I'll say. Starting your first session with 3+ stun could be brutal if it's one that doesn't give you a few hours to rest. That is, assuming you didn't soak that from the 6 stun you'd be taking.
-
By RAW (IIRC) you DO need a lifestyle to start ( Starting Money f.E.)
but You can start with a ...Streetlifestyle and as soon as the first Run is over, You upgrade immediately to whatever you like or can afford
with an upgrade Dance
Medicineman
Well that is much example of raw munchkinism, I we argue at this level I suppose should quit - there is no point to reasoning my statement with this much of metagaming.
That's not an example munchkinism in the least, and I take issue with implication. Starting with streetlife style and then doing the 10% pile on trick has been a move made by many regular teams for as long as I have played SR. I recall doing it before we had the rules on how to do it, in several editions.
If that strikes you as overly muchkin, I don't why you're reading this section, that it's probably the most common sense and least exploitative life style trick in the game.
-
For me it's cheap trick to have cash for must-have gear in priority system for talented mages without cash.
Um. I don't even know what must-have gear you can buy for 1 karma. A spell fetish maybe.
-
Resources E with +10 karma gives 26k. More than enough for a sin, licenses, scooter, lifestyle, gun, link, armour, a/v enhancers and some speciality kit for role. No excuses for munchkinning.
-
and Resources E plus 5 Pts In Debt gives You 31.000 ¥
there's so many possibilities to get some Money at the Start....
with many Dances
Medicineman
-
An example of 26k spent for a starting charcter:
Gear: 26k
Electronics + ID:
Fake SiN R3 7500 8120
+Fake Weapon License R3 600
+Credstik 20
MCT Blue defender Commlink 2000 5200
(DR3/DP1/F5)
-Trid projector 200
-Stealth Dongle R1 3000
MetaLink Comm 100
(DR1/DP1/F1) 100
13420 spent
_____________________________________________
Audio/Visual:
Earbuds R2 100 650
+Audio Enhance R1 500
+Microphone 50
Monocle R4 480 3230
+Smartlink 2000
+Image Mag 250
+Image Enhance R1 500
3880 spent
_____________________________________________
Armour, Clothing + Weapons:
Ruger Super Warhawk 400 1000
+Internal smartgun 400
+Concealable Holster 125
+ X3 speed loaders 75
Rapid Transit (ARM 9) 400 1400
+Chem protect 2 500
+Non conduct 2 500
Basic clothing 50 200
Smart clothing 150
2600 spent
_____________________________________________
Tools, Lifestyle + Misc;
Hardware kit 500
Low Lifestyle (1month) {3pts} 2050
Comforts 3 (+1)
Neighbourhood 2
Security 2
+Garage; small car (1)
+Grid Subscription (1) 50
Dodge Scoot 3000
Ammo: (not accounted for yet)
x20 Regular Ammo 40
x20 Gel 80
5550 spent 25450 so far
____________________________________________
-
I'm still not quite sure why upgrading something after payday is munchkiny. Isn't that the whole point of the monies and Karmas? Buy better stuffs? Upgrading Lifestyle = Munchkin, Upgrading Foci = just fine?
Waking up in a Coffin motel and going out to rent a disposable apartment with a new fake ID is something most Shadowrunners actually do at least once or twice in any case. Is it Munchkiny to buy a new lifestyle and SIN after your old SIN gets burned or is a character expected to stay living on the street forever now?
There are some builds that get tight on Karma. Mystic Adepts typically blow 30 on PP, or any of the Metahuman or Shifter choices that have a Karma cost for example so presuming 10 Karma is a low cost isn't really fair to those characters. There are even character backstory reasons to not have *whatever* at chargen, even on high resource characters.
-
I'm still not quite sure why upgrading something after payday is munchkiny. Isn't that the whole point of the monies and Karmas? Buy better stuffs? Upgrading Lifestyle = Munchkin, Upgrading Foci = just fine?
Waking up in a Coffin motel and going out to rent a disposable apartment with a new fake ID is something most Shadowrunners actually do at least once or twice in any case. Is it Munchkiny to buy a new lifestyle and SIN after your old SIN gets burned or is a character expected to stay living on the street forever now?
There are some builds that get tight on Karma. Mystic Adepts typically blow 30 on PP, or any of the Metahuman or Shifter choices that have a Karma cost for example so presuming 10 Karma is a low cost isn't really fair to those characters. There are even character backstory reasons to not have *whatever* at chargen, even on high resource characters.
Yeah, this is exactly it. Unfortunately we have been saying this for a while! Apparently some people's definition of munckinism is 'saving' half a karma. Also, if you want something (like a backpack, or food, whatever) it is usually covered depending on what lifestyle you have. If you have a low lifestyle, you are allowed certain things without having to pay for them out of pocket. Also, picking a lifestyle allows you to bypass the 5k money rule by starting with more the random amount that it gives you. That actually sounds more 'munchkiny' then not spending a whole karma point.
-
Starting out with a street lifestyle and minimal gear has some pretty quantifiable penalties by RAW. Awakened characters can get away with Resources: E but it will cost them foci (unless they take significant levels of In Debt, which has quantifiable penalties of its own). They can also get away with Skills: E if they have one of the higher Priorities for Magic (giving them bonus skill points) and use some Karma for rating: 1 or 2 skills.
I will add that "new in town" makes a better justification than "This is my very first run" - most shadowrunners have been moving up the criminal food chain for awhile while gaining their professional-level skills and shady contacts. You can make "beginning" characters - one of the benefits of a flexible character creation system - but they are hardly the norm.
-
I'd also argue that Mages can get by without a starting vehicle since it's possible to start out with a character that can run (or fly!) at 30 MPH or faster. Armored bag to carry stuff in and a package of baby wipes and some deodorant sure. Some Physical Adepts and Samurai could likely get from Point A to Point B in an Urban area faster than driving too.
Shapechange or Levitate, along with Spirit Movement power. 30 MPH easy. Improved Invisibility strongly recommended.
Just sayin' is all. Not everyone needs the exact same boilerplate of gear to be a shadowrunner.
-
I will add that "new in town" makes a better justification than "This is my very first run" - most shadowrunners have been moving up the criminal food chain for awhile while gaining their professional-level skills and shady contacts. You can make "beginning" characters - one of the benefits of a flexible character creation system - but they are hardly the norm.
New in town, Just Got (SIN) Burned, Out of Options, or Hit Rock Bottom to name a few tropes. Typically you don't grow up wanting to be a terrorist, you get pushed there. Signing up to be a Shadowrunner is, very likely, agreeing to murder people who are just doing their job. You don't get there without reasons. Desperation being a key one. Maybe you really, really want to live indoors.
-
seriously reductio ad absurdum arguments should not be used...
By RAW you can not pick Kryptonite as an allergy...it is neither common nor uncommon since it does not exist.
Many people fall back to RAW with shadowrun because this company is horrible at answering questions about RAI.
However could you be allergic to Krypton? I would allow it...
(If you laughed at this post, I commend your knowledge)
-
I'd also argue that Mages can get by without a starting vehicle since it's possible to start out with a character that can run (or fly!) at 30 MPH or faster.
Vehicles are not just for moving around fast. They are for moving around while you sit on your butt.
-
I'd also argue that Mages can get by without a starting vehicle since it's possible to start out with a character that can run (or fly!) at 30 MPH or faster.
Vehicles are not just for moving around fast. They are for moving around while you sit on your butt.
Or for sleeping in, if you have a street lifestyle!
-
or storing some Equip.
You don't want to run around in Downtown Seattle with a Shotgun or an Ingram Smart X or wearing a Tactical Vest with
Ammo, Grenades and Silencer-Pistol ;)
HkaHey
Medicinemna
-
To bring us back to the OP's question....
Honestly, you can build a mage in many, many ways and they are all correct. The question is "are they optimal?"
And that in its self is a loaded question that can only be answered by talking to your other players and GM.
There seems to be a... shall we say.... view(?) on these forums that unless you are rolling 10 bajillion dice, you failed making your character..... its only ONE of the reasons I generally avoid the character creation parts of the forum - it gives me a headache.
I suggest you talk to your GM and see if he can give you an idea of the dice pools you will be opposing. Or just look in the NPC section and compare your pools to the NPCs for an idea of what the typical enemy throws (assuming your GM uses the typical DP and doesn't create demi-gods for gangers).
Also... its a role-playing game!! Have fun!! Don't try to 'win'..... cause really, you can't. There is always some new jerk to beat up, job that needs doing, mook to shoot, and johnson that screws you the next week. Trying to 'win the game' tends to lead to a Dragon's dinner table.... AS dinner!
-
I think the MOAR DICE view comes from the fact that you really can't know what your opposition will be like even if your GM gives you rough guidelines, and it's generally better to take on the unknown with more dice than less.
I don't think I play this game to "win," since there's no final boss cue credits scene, but I also don't play it to fail runs. I want to do big crazy shit. I want to show the shadows that I am an emperor among criminals, not a peasant. Mechanical optimization helps me embody that play style. I also have a hard time suspending disbelief that a fixer would set up someone who's of middling competence to take on big jobs for the 10 most powerful corporations in the world. The fixer's rep is on the line too if you prove to be insufficiently competent.
If I wanted to be kind of a crappy nobody getting by by the skin of my teeth and having to count every bullet because I might not be able to afford to buy a reload, I wouldn't play Shadowrun (because nothing about that appeals to me in Shadowrun). Instead, I'd play Dark Heresy 1e. And I love Dark Heresy 1e, I just go to it for a very different play experience and power level than I do
Shadowrun.
Your idea of fun may vary!
-
Character creation, especially priority, usually involves hard choices, because you have limited resources, and something needs to be Priority: E. It is easy to make a weak character by losing your focus, but it is also easy to make a powerful character just by making a few logical choices. There is room for both kinds of characters in the Shadowrun sandbox - but some helpful advice can make the character that a player envisions match its game stats.
-
I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E. None of the those I have made or played started with a focus. Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E. Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear). I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise. Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills.
So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense. I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells. Different people prioritize different things. I like lots of high level skills. My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character.
If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way. Missions is a grinder. Home games usually are about character and story. Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E. Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil.
-
To compare them to mundanes, a mage can be like the weapon specialist (lots of skills) or like the street samurai (less skills but higher dice pools for them, with some assistance from external power-ups).
-
I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E. None of the those I have made or played started with a focus. Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E. Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear). I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise. Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills.
So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense. I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells. Different people prioritize different things. I like lots of high level skills. My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character.
If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way. Missions is a grinder. Home games usually are about character and story. Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E. Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil.
A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite
-
I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E. None of the those I have made or played started with a focus. Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E. Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear). I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise. Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills.
So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense. I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells. Different people prioritize different things. I like lots of high level skills. My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character.
If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way. Missions is a grinder. Home games usually are about character and story. Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E. Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil.
Same pretty much every mage I've made has had resources E, sure its tight but I can take starting with less cash a lot easier than less magic/skills/attributes, metatype is a close second. On the other hand those 3 do tend to shift around a bit depending on the char most mages have magic A (higher starting magic, free skills and spells all add up) but I have had the other 2 at A depending on character creation. Its a balancing act.
-
So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE...
A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite
Yeah, I get it that most think skills A is bad. Maybe for missions it is where everyone sticks to their specialty and you have a face with dice pools in the 20's who doesn't let anybody talk. For our home game we don't have a dedicated face, and everyone is expected to need some social skills at some point. Even our Combat focused troll has 10 dice in negotiation (diplomacy). I wanted a detective Mage with 6's in both sorcery and conjuring groups, good dice pools in Con, negotiation, intimidation (interrogation), sneak, tracking (it's how we do tailing) perception, assessing, and some dice for computer (matrix search).
But in regard to my munchkin comment, I was referring to the priority choice of AACEE and dumping physical stats.
-
A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite
It's still probably a trap.
-
So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE...
A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite
Yeah, I get it that most think skills A is bad. Maybe for missions it is where everyone sticks to their specialty and you have a face with dice pools in the 20's who doesn't let anybody talk. For our home game we don't have a dedicated face, and everyone is expected to need some social skills at some point. Even our Combat focused troll has 10 dice in negotiation (diplomacy). I wanted a detective Mage with 6's in both sorcery and conjuring groups, good dice pools in Con, negotiation, intimidation (interrogation), sneak, tracking (it's how we do tailing) perception, assessing, and some dice for computer (matrix search).
But in regard to my munchkin comment, I was referring to the priority choice of AACEE and dumping physical stats.
The sorcery and conjuring groups are generally bad though ... you generally don't want all three skills in both groups. skills B or C coupled with Magic A (and maybe a few karma) would actually pretty much cover all of your wants on the skill checklist
-
Yeah, specs in a couple of the actual good skills are better than the groups (or just not wasting points on the bad skills), and even if you can raise MAG with SAP from higher Meta priority, those extra spells are gold.
-
I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E. None of the those I have made or played started with a focus. Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E. Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear). I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise. Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills.
So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense. I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells. Different people prioritize different things. I like lots of high level skills. My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character.
If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way. Missions is a grinder. Home games usually are about character and story. Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E. Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil.
When will people get over this "munchkin" negativity concept . Game theory was developed over a century ago, it eventually developed to the concept of taking the least bad action to help all the players as a whole, aka the Minimum Maximum or Min/Max. It was then and it is now about helping everyone playing as a whole. Feeling guilt cause ya did some math and developed a background you like is just silly. You don't need justify anything, the stormwind fallacy alive and well in so many, is just blows me away. Everyone should play the game to have fun, for some it means taking the time to math out a great build and having a great story, for others it is different. It doesn't matter the order of creation, all that matters is ya have fun playing the game.
-
Feeling guilt cause ya did some math and developed a background you like is just silly. You don't need justify anything, the stormwind fallacy alive and well in so many, is just blows me away. Everyone should play the game to have fun, for some it means taking the time to math out a great build and having a great story, for others it is different. It doesn't matter the order of creation, all that matters is ya have fun playing the game.
Amen dude! PREACH!
-
I feel that the reason for this is a combination of a number of different factors.
First we have elitism, some individuals feel that they know how the game SHOULD BE RAN, and heaven help all who do not agree, For the record I see ALOT of his on the boards on the min/max side (Why would you give your combat mage some hacking abilities). In all fairness the other side does it as well, but more at the table than on the internet (You are playing a NAN sam, why would you do X).
Second: Different goals. We all play for enjoyment but people find the enjoyment in different ways. There is a book for the champions rpg (2nd edition) called Strike Force, inside of it is a description of a bunch of different play styles. I highly recommend it if you can track it down. I a nutshell some people play to win combats, others play to plunge the moral depths of their characters, others want to be the best in everything, etc...Each of these types of people "win" a different way.