Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Acalagus7 on <01-25-16/0121:45>
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Has shadowrun started dealing with the Horrors from the Earthdawn universe yet? I thought it was the bug spirits, but i just read that those were just a precursor to the horrors.
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No, and it won't happen for a few thousand years. Also chances are the SR publishers will never write about anything Earthdawn related again as the licenses are held by different companies.
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Technically, they have dealt with Horrors, a little. Worlds Without End was a novel with an immortal elf being hunted by a Horror. In the Harlequin's Back adventure, Harlequin throws Frosty and a group of runners into the metaplanes to stop Horrors from using the spike points of the Great Ghost Dance as a bridge to get here early. There was a plot involving a cult within Aztechnology with Oscuro and a blood mage gestalt that were attempting to open the way for Horrors, but Dunkelzhan blew himself up, possessed a cyberzombie, and traveled to the metaplanes to use a powerful focus as a hammer to smack down any Horrors trying to cross over early.
Sooo yeah, they've done stuff with Horrors, but they also wrapped that plot up, for now, without the shadows (much less the rest of the world) knowing much about it. If you're going to see any Horrors in the next hundred years or so, it will rise from either another Azzie cult or from a Horror that got 'trapped' in an Alchera somewhere, and got released when the alchera opened. Though anything is possible.
And yeah, the properties are in different companies now. If/when they do show up, they likely wouldn't be listed as 'Horrors' but probably as 'the Enemy' or some other suitable moniker that doesn't demand people file copyright suits. Like how Dunkelzhan and Ghostwalker were called Mountainshadow and Icewing back in Earthdawn.
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To be fair, Worlds Without End and Harlequin's Back were both published in what, the mid-90s? So FASA dealt with Horrors in the 6th World when they still had the license for the 4th World.
As PixeL01 and Mirikon points out, unlikely to reappear due to the licensing issues.
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Has shadowrun started dealing with the Horrors from the Earthdawn universe yet? I thought it was the bug spirits, but i just read that those were just a precursor to the horrors.
The Dragon Heart trilogy by Jak Koke (Stranger Souls, Clockwork Asylum, and Beyond the Pale) published back in 1997 effectively ended the Horrors plot thread in the Shadowrun universe.
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For now. As I said, there are ways it could be reopened, but unless the properties were reunited under one company again, they wouldn't be called Horrors, and you wouldn't see any of the same names (i.e. Verjigorm would not be mentioned by name, but you could see cryptic references to a Great Hunter). Hell, apocalyptic cults worshiping Horrors (though they wouldn't be called that, natch) could happen, especially if some poor fool picked up an artifact left behind talking about 'a great scourge' or something similar. Lots of room to have references in the lore, whenever deep dark magic stuff happens. After all, in Earthdawn, some elf found a magic tome that told of the Horrors and foretold their return, went crazy from reading it, and started a magic kingdom to try and stop the end of the world (no, seriously, that's what happened). With the recent artifact rush, rising mana levels, and maybe an alchera or two, it is possible. Hell, we've already got a 'Life Rock' found by the DIMR and what is clearly a T'Skrang (or a changeling that is close enough to be no different) working for Lofwyr. They aren't direct Earthdawn references, but players who know their lore get them. Still, as for actual Horrors appearing in the setting? It ain't happening any time soon without something on the same level of Dunkelzhan's blowing himself up or the Great Ghost Dance going down.
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I agree with Mirikon, there are plenty of Earthdawn references scattered around the material, sometimes very well hidden like the reference to the liferock in "Parageology". In regards to the horrors, i just wanna point out that there are several threads on this forum regarding the horrors already, some of them deal with how to implement them in your games.
In regards to forerunners of the horrors i seem to recall that wraiths were mentioned at some point, but ive forgotten where, it might have been in ED or SR materials i smply don't recall, but the the shadow spirits come quite close conceptually to horrors.
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Shadow Spirits, Insect Spirits and Shedim are all signs of the increasing mana levels and the coming of the Horrors. However, Dark Tooth blocked off some of the shortcuts those things could use to get here earlier than normally possible
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Technically, they have dealt with Horrors, a little. Worlds Without End was a novel with an immortal elf being hunted by a Horror. In the Harlequin's Back adventure, Harlequin throws Frosty and a group of runners into the metaplanes to stop Horrors from using the spike points of the Great Ghost Dance as a bridge to get here early. There was a plot involving a cult within Aztechnology with Oscuro and a blood mage gestalt that were attempting to open the way for Horrors, but Dunkelzhan blew himself up, possessed a cyberzombie, and traveled to the metaplanes to use a powerful focus as a hammer to smack down any Horrors trying to cross over early.
Sooo yeah, they've done stuff with Horrors, but they also wrapped that plot up, for now, without the shadows (much less the rest of the world) knowing much about it. If you're going to see any Horrors in the next hundred years or so, it will rise from either another Azzie cult or from a Horror that got 'trapped' in an Alchera somewhere, and got released when the alchera opened. Though anything is possible.
And yeah, the properties are in different companies now. If/when they do show up, they likely wouldn't be listed as 'Horrors' but probably as 'the Enemy' or some other suitable moniker that doesn't demand people file copyright suits. Like how Dunkelzhan and Ghostwalker were called Mountainshadow and Icewing back in Earthdawn.
Wait I'm bad with names but I thought Dunkelzhan was sniper shot?
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Nope. Blew up his presidential limo with a helluvalot of explosives, but contained the blast inside a barrier.
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I always thought it was suspect that Big D rode around in a limo full of explosives. He must have foreseen it...
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Big D was making plans. Remember, he's from Earthdawn times, and there Names have power. President of the UCAS is a big Name, adding on to his own. And while I doubt there was actual prophecy or divination going on, Big D did know the score behind the Azzie cult, because he had gotten himself on the board. When he heard they found a corrupted Nexus point, and were about to do Bad Thingstm, he activated the plan he already had in place.
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Or maybe it was just a horrible, but tasty accident? (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=5357.msg319024#msg319024)
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I still personally doubt that it was mundane explosives going off.
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True. There were rumors of a nuke, but I haven't heard any reports of radiation at the blast site. Then again, with the Rift and other craziness, the radiation might have been overlooked or bled off through the Rift.
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True. There were rumors of a nuke, but I haven't heard any reports of radiation at the blast site. Then again, with the Rift and other craziness, the radiation might have been overlooked or bled off through the Rift.
I seem to recall it being nuclear, but the ritual he used channeled the entire blast (and I'm guessing any radiation) into astral space to hit the Horrors and that bridge they had almost completed. I might be mistaken though, it's been a long time since I read that book. ???
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Might have been a small tactical nuke. But what with the way Nukes have been behaving since the awakening, its hard to say...
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True. There were rumors of a nuke, but I haven't heard any reports of radiation at the blast site. Then again, with the Rift and other craziness, the radiation might have been overlooked or bled off through the Rift.
I seem to recall it being nuclear, but the ritual he used channeled the entire blast (and I'm guessing any radiation) into astral space to hit the Horrors and that bridge they had almost completed. I might be mistaken though, it's been a long time since I read that book. ???
The blast didn't do anything to the bridge, thats what the Dragonheart was for. As far as i recall, the Dragonheart is described as a Unique magical item that has the power to smoothe out mana spikes, Thus making sure that the Horrors doesn't cross ahead of time. Through the Whole trilogy, the bridge comes closer and closer to completion, only the recovery of the Dragonheart and placing it in Dunkies spirit hands ensures that the bridge is destroyed or at least can only Progress towards completion at it's normal pace.
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True. There were rumors of a nuke, but I haven't heard any reports of radiation at the blast site. Then again, with the Rift and other craziness, the radiation might have been overlooked or bled off through the Rift.
I seem to recall it being nuclear, but the ritual he used channeled the entire blast (and I'm guessing any radiation) into astral space to hit the Horrors and that bridge they had almost completed. I might be mistaken though, it's been a long time since I read that book. ???
The blast didn't do anything to the bridge, thats what the Dragonheart was for. As far as i recall, the Dragonheart is described as a Unique magical item that has the power to smoothe out mana spikes, Thus making sure that the Horrors doesn't cross ahead of time. Through the Whole trilogy, the bridge comes closer and closer to completion, only the recovery of the Dragonheart and placing it in Dunkies spirit hands ensures that the bridge is destroyed or at least can only Progress towards completion at it's normal pace.
Ah, that's right! As I said, it's been some time since I read those books. Now I'm wishing we could still get them. :'(
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Been thinking about re-reading that trilogy, now I'm going to have too.
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I see so is he currently alive, dead, spirit barrier to the darker realms?
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I would go with the third option.
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Last anyone has heard, Big D is still a spirit laying the hammer down on any spike points and bridges to keep the Enemy out as long as possible.
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In regards to forerunners of the horrors i seem to recall that wraiths were mentioned at some point, but I've forgotten where, it might have been in ED or SR materials i smply don't recall, but the the shadow spirits come quite close conceptually to horrors.
IIRC they are in Paranormal Europe and I remember a reference in Aztechnology ---- just a sec...
Ah - here is a wiki on it (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith) - yup, I did recall correctly! ;D
On Dunk's limo --- I'm shadier there -- wasn't their reference to a 'cascading astral something or other' - basically a modified ritual that hadn't been seen? Well, along with the explosives - it just seems like the explosion had some magic behind it, but that may have just been the part to push the released magic into the heart. I'll have to go dig my books out and find the reference...
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Magic was indeed used to contain the blast and channel the energy into the metaplanes, that is what caused the rift if i recall correctly. However it was done more to limit the destruction and save lives rather than as an attack againt the horrrors and their bridge as far as i recall, as i said earlier thats what the dragonheart was for. In essence Dunkie need an explosion large enough to completely vaporise a great dragon, but didn't want to level several city Blocks as well, It's been some years since i read the books, so i may recall incorrectly but i don't think so.
It might also have had something to do with powering up the dragonheart as Cantrip suggests. I guess it's time to reread the trilogy :)
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It's mostly been suggested that the force required to create the DC Rift was equal to that required to close it - and/or unleashed when the Rift was closed. Harlequin theorizes that it was nuclear, but considering the source of the explosion would/could have been the Big D himself, and considering he had the possibility of this as a hope-I-don't-have-to-execute-it alternative plan, I think the force applied would have been purely magical, contained within barriers pre-set for just such the eventuality, etc. etc.
That, and considering the evidence of the Chicago Hive nuke, there being no radiation whatsoever strongly argues against a nuclear weapon having been used. Massive magic, sure, but not a nuke.
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Dunk planned the whole thing including his "death" and the events that spawned from his will. The only reason he stooped to becoming the president of the UCAS was to tap into the magical power that the title has.
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So I started re-reading the Dragon Heart trilogy. The explosion itself still seems to remain a mystery, but it does seem to be directly caused by Big D himself. The Dragon Heart is a very powerful relic and from what I can tell from reading and remembering (haven't finished my re-read) it couldn't be activated with the level of magic at the time, and maybe not for several more decades, and needed a massive mystic boost to get it running.
The lack of radiation or other explosives chemical residue does point at the destruction being magic in nature, the perfect circle of safety shows that he had prepped from explosion so it wouldn't hurt the populace at large. It may also have worked to focus the energies inward and direct them, making sure they both killed him and were directed into the Dragon Heart.
I'm thinking Dunkelzahn may have used a type of necromantic metamagic to harness the energy of his own self-sacrifice to give the ritual a boost. Kinda dark and bordering on blood magic, but he was apparently desperate, especially since The Laughing Man just left Thayla on her own with no real backup against the horrors and their human followers on the near complete spike point. His death got the Dragon Heart up and working, and ironicly thanks to Thayla apparently calling up his fragmented spirit (guessing since he was clueless as to who he used to be), he ended up personally using the Heart's power to smooth out the spike points like a giant astral belt sander.
Dunk planned the whole thing including his "death" and the events that spawned from his will. The only reason he stooped to becoming the president of the UCAS was to tap into the magical power that the title has.
Not this crap again. Joe if you're going to talk from an in game perspective take it to the RP forum. Show me an example, in canon, where name magic exists in Shadowrun or where one of the game-makers has said so. Just because a form of magic existed in Earthdawn doesn't mean it exists yet, or ever will exist at all, in Shadowrun.
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Well, this isn't ENTIRELY Joe's Plan 9-esque rambling. It has been outright said that dragons (and IEs) understand magic differently than we do, and know much that we don't yet know. Just because no one but Dragons and Immortal Elves know it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Blink blink, Joe, horrors... Nope.... I just want popcorn, and wait for the fireworks. Cause we all know the horrors just want to be loved, like the Shedim.
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Cause we all know the horrors just want to be loved, like the Shedim.
Well some of them do.
Is it their fault we are just too flimsy to be able to survive those hugs? :P
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You and I seem to have vastly different definition of "Hugs" :P
No where in my definition is 'Rend your sanity and/or Soul', listed in "Hugs"....
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They do!! Verjigorm is actually a very fluffy little bunny that just wants to be petted.
Honestly, ALL the Earthdawn magic exists in SR - but because of the barely-over-the-line mana level, most of it can't be executed. Name magic (i.e. true names) exists in SR - look at free spirits - and is, honestly, one of the most subtle ones in Shadowrun - but only the Superpowered NPCs probably know how to reeeeeally make it apply to entities that aren't free spirits. Which means that for the purposes of the game and most PCs, it doesn't exist. The rules for it certainly don't.
Which means, of course, that Joe is yet again claiming canon for his own wild hair-up-his-arse decisions.
Joe, repeat after me: "Unless I can go back and point to specific things within SR canon - giving book, page, and paragraph - without referring to either Earthdawn, my home game, or my personal theories - I will preface everything I say with 'I think', 'I believe', 'It is my theory that', or something similar to make it absolutely clear that I am not claiming canon, misleading the newbies, and/or attempting to make myself look like an ass."
We'll respect you a hell of a lot more for it - and we'll actually be able to have discussions with you instead of the standard 'shut up, Joe, you moron' responses that we come out with whenever you post. Trust me, we really WOULD like to talk about this stuff with you, but since you post as though your ideas are canon, all we can do is hammer you for them.
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Cause we all know the horrors just want to be loved, like the Shedim.
Well some of them do.
Is it their fault we are just too flimsy to be able to survive those hugs? :P
No it is not! They hug to hard! Plus, between the small equines and the Care Bears (aka Horrors) the Shedim are nice, just hug to hard (aka your dead, meatbag).
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I never said the Horrors were a good thing. What I have proposed is that Dunkelzahn lied the whole time and has either attempted to bring them over early or hold us back so that when they do arrive we'll be completely unaware.
But let me make this point VERY clear. I will NEVER debase my opinion with something so self evidently obvious as "I think" or "in my opinion". I will deign to ask you not to resort to ad hominem attacks. A simple retort of "that is not canon" will suffice. FYI, I do know what the canon says, otherwise I would be able to produce the opposing narrative. But we already have enough people extolling the canon, so I don't see the need to add anything to that bucket. However, should a GM decide to add a twist or interest or uncertainty to their game, the alternative narratives are there (and largely out of the eyes of prying players). Also, I called nanite zombies for Lockdown back when everyone was claiming blue 52. I called Deus escaping years ago, before this CFD stuff. It was all just "wild speculation" back then too. I'm not saying I'm batting a thousand, but you miss every shot you don't take.
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I'm sorry, Joe - we discuss canon here. People come here with questions about canon - which we answer. Speaking about canon is presumed. Without any such statement, it is automatically presumed that you're speaking about canon - not that it is 'something so self evidently obvious' as being a personal game, thought, or opinion. WE prepend anything that isn't actually canon with 'I think', 'It's my theory that', and all the rest. We come up with theories, and a huge host of accurate shots - my accuracy goes back well before yours, and includes a two-years-distant shot predicting Deus's escape of the Arcology via the Network - which I prefaced with 'I think', and all the other 'this is my theory' phrases.
If you think that that's 'debasement', then fine, think that. You will continue to be looked upon with derision, contempt, and everything else that you currently do - you know, 'oh, gee, there's Joe going off worse than Plan 9 because he wont' 'debase' himself by saying his opinion is his opinion and not canon, like everyone else does' - because you refuse to participate in an actual dialogue.
Until you're willing to stop acting the local nutcase, you really have no room to bitch if we call you a nutcase - which I didn't, because y'know, I'm really very, very good at not making ad hominem arguments. 'You're a nutcase' is ad hominem; 'you're acting like a nutcase' is not.
As I said:
We'll respect you a hell of a lot more for it - and we'll actually be able to have discussions with you instead of the standard 'shut up, Joe, you moron' responses that we come out with whenever you post. Trust me, we really WOULD like to talk about this stuff with you, but since you post as though your ideas are canon, all we can do is hammer you for them.
So if you don't want courtesy or respect your ideas or purported accuracy could earn for you, then by all means, continue to believe that simply using 'I think' and the rest is beneath you. We'll continue to ignore you and remind people that 'What Joe says ain't canon' instead of having a useful conversation about it.
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Fine. Canon: Horrors don't exist in Shadowrun because they are a different intellectual property from Shadowrun. Topic closed. Have a nice day.
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Actually, the whole Care Bear thing was my sarcastic response to your statements trying to defend, against canon, that Shedim are misunderstood and not malevolent beings trying to kill every living thing. So because of that those 2ish pages of you defending your opinion, anytime you post about Horrors, Shedim, or any of the few other completely unredeemable EVIL things in this setting, I can help but make Care Bear jokes. First Care Bear joke I made was around page 4ish of Is ShadowRun really this Brutal?
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Sorry, no: canon is that Horrors, the Enemy, however you want to call them, do exist in Shadowrun, because even though Earthdawn is currently an intellectual property owned by somebody else, they were once owned by the same corporation, and during that time of singular ownership, beings from the one were brought over to the other. Ysgraithe, for example. Once again you fail the 'is this canon?' test, because apparently despite claiming you know your shit, you really, really don't.
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I think you missed my point. Dogmatic appeal to canon has a chilling effect on discourse and creativity.
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Shadowrun canon provides the only meaningfull common framework as a starting point for any discussions. Without a common framework you cannot have a meaningfull discussion of any sort, much less any creativity, rather you just have a bunch of people shouting nonsense from their own personal speakers box.
Now i personally applaud houserules and personal interpretations of the game World and sometimes will even try to argue that my interpretation makes more sense than the canon version. But for there to be even a discussion, we all need to agree on what the canon actually is. This is pretty basic for any sort of discourse.
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Justify Mt Rainier being southwest of Seattle and I'll consider your stance on canon having merit.
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Um, Mt Rainier is, from maps of Shadowrun North American, placed Southeast of Seattle, right were it's at in real life. Also, it's called the parallel world theorem. Just because we accept the set story that the makers of the game and world decide doesn't mean that things are exactly the way they are in reality.
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Justify Mt Rainier being southwest of Seattle and I'll consider your stance on canon having merit.
What?
Canon is published material; that's it, no more, no less. If published material had Mr. Rainier placed just north of Dublin, Ireland, then that's what the canon location of Mt. Rainier would be in the context of the fictional setting. The real world location of Mt. Rainier has absolutely no impact on the canon location of same where Shadowrun is concerned.
Nonsensical statement is nonsensical.
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Ever since first edition it has canonically been south west.
I'd call it a typo, but it hasn't been fixed yet. That's my go to example of bad canon. The other is the Trojan-Satsop meltdown.
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I don't know where you're getting your info from, Joe, but check the 6th World Almanac. Mr. Rainier is just where it's supposed to be.
And canon includes ret-cons; just because something was a certain way in 1st Edition does not mean it's always going to remain canon. If Mr. Rainier was south-west of Seattle in 1st Edition, it's possible that it was just a mistake that has since been retconned.
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So... Somebody not fixing the direction used when referencing a landmark is 'bad canon?'
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Look up the Sinserach tribe of the Salish-Shidhe Council. Their lands are southwest of Seattle including Mt. Rainier.
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Look up the Sinserach tribe of the Salish-Shidhe Council. Their lands are southwest of Seattle including Mt. Rainier.
Look up where? What book specifically are you referencing here?
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Look up the Sinserach tribe of the Salish-Shidhe Council. Their lands are southwest of Seattle including Mt. Rainier.
Um, from Seattle 2072 page 14.
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Look up the Sinserach tribe of the Salish-Shidhe Council. Their lands are southwest of Seattle including Mt. Rainier.
Look up where? What book specifically are you referencing here?
Take your pick. Anywhere the Sinserach are described they are in the southwest including Mt. Rainier.
I'm not saying it is actually to the SW, just that it is an example of printed word being clearly wrong. However, that introduces another problem. The Cascade Orks are canonically listed as being in the Cascades north of I-90. The Orks of Carbonado are canonically listed as having secret tunnels across the border into Cascade Ork lands... that's 50km away.
The Satsop nuclear power plant was in Satsop, 40 km west of Olympia. The Trojan nuclear power plant was on the Columbia River near Rainier. This was a major canonical milestone and it wasn't anywhere near Glow City.
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Not only are you not making much sense, Joe, you're also nitpicking to the point of appearing pedantic. Since you can't or won't quote any actual sources for this perceived discrepancy, coupled with the fact that this discussion is departing further and further away from Horrors, I'll just say have a good one, mate.
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I'm giving examples of canon being wrong.
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You have not provided one concrete example. Quote book and page and people will respect your side. As it is, you're just saying things were wrong "anywhere you look" but not providing an anywhere.
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I'm giving examples of canon being wrong.
You mean a 30 year story world written by dozens of people has some errors in it, Ghost forbid! *poses in shocked surprise*
Start quoting book pages and examples and we'll give your words more credit. It's simple.
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Which of my assertions are you claiming to be incorrect?
And when I do produce those pages, are you just going to say there's no true Scotsman? Because I'm not going to bother if you're just going to move the goal posts.
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Which of my assertions are you claiming to be incorrect?
At this time, I am claiming that none of them are. I am claiming that all of them contained in the following post are unsourced and therefore cannot be taken at face value. The whole post needs citation for me to be able to take it seriously.
Take your pick. Anywhere the Sinserach are described they are in the southwest including Mt. Rainier.
I'm not saying it is actually to the SW, just that it is an example of printed word being clearly wrong. However, that introduces another problem. The Cascade Orks are canonically listed as being in the Cascades north of I-90. The Orks of Carbonado are canonically listed as having secret tunnels across the border into Cascade Ork lands... that's 50km away.
The Satsop nuclear power plant was in Satsop, 40 km west of Olympia. The Trojan nuclear power plant was on the Columbia River near Rainier. This was a major canonical milestone and it wasn't anywhere near Glow City.
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I'm away from books but let me direct you to online sources.
Trojan-Satsop http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Glow_City
Actual Satsop plant
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNP-3_and_WNP-5
Actual Trojan plant https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Nuclear_Power_Plant
The Cascade Orks north of I-90 is in New Seattle (p.10) as is Carbonado (p. 90). Google maps can get you a distance.
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Or it is a part of where Shadowrun history diverged from 'real' history. Some buildings or roads were built (or rebuilt) elsewhere.
Oh no, that can't happen! They can't get a couple minor distances and directions off, the world must be ending.
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You realize that modern day real world information can't be converted over 100% to a fictional world that diverged, at minimum, 18 years ago, and possibly longer depending on any pre-awakening, pre-corp extraterritoriality divergences. I'm pretty sure we don't have Harlequin walking around the length of the 5th age mucking with things like he and other immortals did in the Shadowrun universe.
Roads and crap in Seattle and Washington state in general are far different now then they will be 60 years from now in the 2070, especially when you factor magic and corps into the mix.
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Re: roads... I 90 is on the published maps in all of the Seattle setting books. They didn't change the location.
Re: nuclear power plants. They existed prior to the divergence in the 80's 90's.
This is also what I meant by no true Scotsman. If you guys are just going to move the goal posts every time I score, I'm not going to take the time to cite stuff for you.
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The divergence goes back before that, if there's such things as Immortal Elves, magical artifacts from previous eras, etc. Or, who knows, maybe the Trojan-Satsop amalgamation was done later on?
Argue the Scotsman Fallacy all you want, it doesn't make this level of nitpicking any more justified. One account of a description being off on which direction, a discrepancy in distance (or who knows, maybe they built some massive tunnel system).
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Brichert Paper Mills, Thomas Vintners, Seattle Public Library, 20 minute ferry rides from downtown to Tacoma or Everett, Trident sub base in Makah territory... it isn't just one or two discrepancies, it is rather pervasive. That's why I say you can't dogmatically follow canon. Sometimes you have to massage it into making sense.
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Brichert Paper Mills, Thomas Vintners, Seattle Public Library, 20 minute ferry rides from downtown to Tacoma or Everett, Trident sub base in Makah territory... it isn't just one or two discrepancies, it is rather pervasive. That's why I say you can't dogmatically follow canon. Sometimes you have to massage it into making sense.
No, what your arguing is that we can't accept the game-makers canon because it doesn't match up with the real world. To bad, deal. That's part of why we have fantasy in the first place. It still doesn't defend your warping of canon regarding topics that exist completely within the fictional world.
And as pointed out, the divergence with our world dates back even as far as the 4th age of Earthdawn, the creatures and people who existed then and the Horrors and the apocalypse they unleashed on the world.
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Or, if someone wants to whine about how Horrors aren't in Catalyst's intellectual property, 'some malevolent metaplanar threat a Great Dragon would commit ritual suicide to prevent' can be substituted for Horrors.
Like Fox says, they can change little things like that. If some landmark of Seattle fell over tomorrow, would you claim the books (the official 'this is canon' source) are no longer canon until they say the building fell over back in the 2010s? Getting a direction incorrect or the placement of a building doesn't please you is no good reason to toss the setting in the trash.
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Brichert is listed as being up on the hills east of the docks and then explains in another location of the same books that the aroma of Tacoma comes from the paper mill on the docks. Thomas Vintners is specifically stated to be a hundred years old winery so I did the research and found the winery they were referring (it is part of Columbia wines now, btw).
I'm not suggesting that all canon be thrown out. I'm suggesting that the writers aren't perfect and all knowing. If they are mistaken in one category, maybe they can be mistaken in another. Maybe they don't know what the next writer or publishing company is going to do.
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Joe, all we're telling you to do - no, all we're asking you to do - is that, when someone asks a question, which by default is asking about what the canon of Shadowrun is, is to either give them canon or - and here's where you apparently seem to be claiming your intellectual liberties are being violated - to simply do what all the rest of us do, and say something along the lines of 'in my game', 'I think that', or whatever. You made your position crystal clear:
But let me make this point VERY clear. I will NEVER debase my opinion with something so self evidently obvious as "I think" or "in my opinion".
So really? In the context of these boards, which by default discusses canon, by not stating such (your opinion, your game, whatever) you claim that your otherwise-very-interesting diatribes are canon. Which they're not - unless you're secretly one of the writers, which I don't think you are.
Again, the olive branch:
We'll respect you a hell of a lot more for it - and we'll actually be able to have discussions with you instead of the standard 'shut up, Joe, you moron' responses that we come out with whenever you post. Trust me, we really WOULD like to talk about this stuff with you, but since you post as though your ideas are canon, all we can do is hammer you for them.
So we aren't shutting down discussion of your thoughs; YOU ARE. If you want us to actually talk about your ideas, some of which could be useful, then just get with the fucking program and post seperate 'what has been officially written' from 'what I think is going on' instead of just throwing up 'what I think is going on' as though it were 'what has been officially written'.
If not, get used to being fucking ignored.
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Ah, I see the problem. You think the default is canon. I simply don't agree. Shadowrun is an interactive media as opposed to a book or movie. The author can't dictate the motivations of the actors because they are out of his hands. The actors cannot know the motivations of the author because he is out of their hands. The best we can hope for is an honest report of the events that transpire. Even that is clouded by obfuscation in the world of Shadowrun.
My conspiracy theories almost exclusively deal with motivations. This is intentional because, like all good conspiracy theories, they can't be proven either way. They don't change anything, but can act as motivations for others along the way.
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All you are doing is confuse the people coming here seeking clarity by offering your altered version of the setting instead of the canon information that is actually sought.
So you are basically just being a sophisticated troll?
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This thread was answered in the second post. Everything after that was speculation. I don't know what Internet you've been on, but "I read it on the internet so it must be true." has been a joke for like 10 years now. Let me explain the joke for you... most of the Internet is full of opinions so you're naive to think something is true just because you read it on the internet. Thus the default is everything on the internet is opinion.
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Joe, there is a difference between speculation firmly rooted in canon, with evidence and logic behind it, and saying "I don't like blue, so the sky is red in my world." The rest of us are doing the former, for the most part, and clearly stating 'in my game', or 'in my opinion', where we're not. You want to get into a discussion of the philosophy of game settings or game design, you'll get a far better response in the general or off topic forums, especially if you mark it as such. But being shown a globe, and then saying "Screw that, we're going with a cube instead," isn't going to promote discussion of your ideas. It is going to make us lay the hammer down so the rest of us can talk without wading through the crazy.
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Ah, I see the problem. You think the default is canon. I simply don't agree.
In fact, that's the meaning of the word..
canon
[kan-uh n]
noun
the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic:
Anything other than what the authors present is, by definition, not canon, not authentic, and therefore a houserule, or home modification. I take canon and throw it out the window all the time. Oh, a certain corp did this? Well in my game, it went down differently. But I'll let people know that it was in my game because it's the courteous thing to do so that people aren't looking for official backing of something that I made up for my game.
As a GM, I can be equally interested in Canon vs GM ideas. I often want to know how things went down canonically so that I can think about how best to change things to fit my game. Sometimes other GMs have good ideas, and I incorporate their changes to my game as well, but only after knowing what the Canon of the situation was.
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Yeah... Canon is the default by (pun intended) default. Trying to argue otherwise is ludicrous. Yes, the author can dictate the motivation of the of the actors as well. It is really simple, too. All they have to do is write 'this is the motivation of ___,' which is therefore canon and accurate in the game as a whole. You can't change it being canon (though you can adjust things in your game), and you can't say canon is 'wrong' (though you can change things in your game if it suits the group).
This is by no means a mark against things like homebrew and adjustments to suit a particular table; more power to you to adjust things to make it the most fun for your group! That said, it is where everything comes from, and diverging from it is going away from the baseline.
You said adding I think or in my opinion 'debases' your ideas? Oh no, cry us a river. Maybe row your way out of threads regarding canon when you're doing so, as you refuse to actually acknowledge the canon we're discussing.
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Joe, there is a difference between speculation firmly rooted in canon, with evidence and logic behind it, and saying "I don't like blue, so the sky is red in my world."
Actually, I take canonical events and then theorize stuff around them. We kicked this one off with Dunkelzahn used thread magic (the power being the title of President of the UCAS) to power up his spell.
He's a Dragon. Check.
He became President. Check.
He waited until after becoming president to cast the spell. Check.
Now, I'll give you that I don't know for sure that Dunkelzahn didn't have a "Tear Hole in Reality" spell usable at will, but I like to think he needed some extra boost.
Now, using Earthdawn.
Dragons are Namegivers. Check.
Dragons can use thread magic. Check.
Thread magic can boost the skills and abilities of people, places and things. Check with an asterisk. Thread magic is complicated. You can boost the attributes of the target, or you can boost your own abilities when dealing with the target. The direct path would involve the Title of President of the UCAS is a person, separate from the actual person holding the title. Dunk could weave to the President, which coincidentally happened to be himself. That's a little sketchy rules wise, so the other route would be a place (the UCAS), which requires a key knowledge and pattern item associated with being the President. Or it could be a magic item that required a deed of being the president. Regardless, thread magic is within the knowledge base of any surviving 4th worlder.
Thread magic requires a pattern item. Dunkelzahn had a long list of items that he gave away in his Will. At least 1 was a pattern item (the rose/flower?). It is reasonable that he could have found the relevant pattern item. Check.
Now, you could say that Earthdawn and Shadowrun are different intellectual properties, held by two different companies, however, at the time of spellcasting, both were still held by FASA and Dunkelzahn's Will was an attempt to codify the two properties together. So 4th World magic, check.
Where exactly do I say the sky is anything but blue?
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You're talking like this is the only thing you've 'theorized' on, or that everything you discuss has conceivable merits.
How about we talk about you being an apologist for Shedim? By canon, Shedim are malevolent, metaplanar entities whose mere presence is inimical to life; on top of that, they are united by their undying hatred of all things living. They like to acquire corpses (or steal bodies when possible) in order to stick around on Earth so they can kill, cause mayhem/chaos, kill more, incite more killing, etc. It isn't like they are instinctual predators either; they don't gain any sustenance from killing and have infiltrated governments and other organizations in attempts to manipulate metahumanity into causing more violence and bloodshed. One good example is when the moderate Ibn Eiza was assassinated. A Master Shedim took over his body, convinced everyone a miracle brought him back to life and then started the New Islamic Jihad. Even after he was revealed to be a malevolent spirit possessing a corpse in 2064, there are fighters in the mountains of the Balkans (and probably elsewhere) who are still fighting and killing their fellow metahumans, thinking the 'revelation' was a sham trying to discredit their leader.
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But MijRai, Shedim just want hugs, DAMN IT!! (Also 100% sarcastic)
Well, that was so far off topic, but I did learn something:
If the author of a game setting get a few locations off actual real world locations, because either mistake or men close enough/alternate reality with magic, it invalidates all other parts of canon, like say the awakening happened in 2012 (hey it didn't so canon must be wrong), what malevolent means, and whole host of other things. Yup, good day for education.
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Point out that many of the books CJ quoted as having geographic errors are also 'pre-internet'. For you younger folks out there, there was a time before 'google' or wikipedia, back when fact checking took days... and even then could be wrong....
So yea, things might be a little off in a book published pre-2000s , and that's to be expected. And happens in EVERY game published by EVERY development house.
Palladium: thinks Calgary shares a border with Montana (they are infact about 1200km apart)
White Wolf: Thinks Vancouver is next to Tacoma. (Missing a few cities... and 600 km..)
SJG: Montreal is in Ontario. (NO! Montreal is in Quebec!)
All of those are from pre-2000 published books. Do those errors invalidate all canon for their respective series?
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SJG: Montreal is in Ontario. (NO! Montreal is in Quebec!)
I smell a Canadian in the room. Go Flames!
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SJG: Montreal is in Ontario. (NO! Montreal is in Quebec!)
I smell a Canadian in the room. Go Flames!
Was the aroma of beaver, maple syrup, and hockey pucks?
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Palladium: thinks Calgary shares a border with Montana (they are infact about 1200km apart)
White Wolf: Thinks Vancouver is next to Tacoma. (Missing a few cities... and 600 km..)
SJG: Montreal is in Ontario. (NO! Montreal is in Quebec!)
All of those are from pre-2000 published books. Do those errors invalidate all canon for their respective series?
In Palladium's case: Yes, all of it. Glitter Boys never happened.
White Wolf: Wait, they have canon? Someone needs to tell WW.
SJG: Back in 2000 edit: 1995 Sean Punch was took over as the GURPS line editor and actually lives in Montreal so either a) he should have known better or b) he really, really wanted Montreal to be in a different Province than Quebec and could fulfil that wish via the game :P
SJG: Montreal is in Ontario. (NO! Montreal is in Quebec!)
I smell a Canadian in the room. Go Flames!
Was the aroma of beaver, maple syrup, and hockey pucks?
Think I saw that once at a Canadian Gentlemen's Club.
Hat trick indeed....
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I wasn't being an apologist for Shedim. I was suggesting that the bad ones were called Shedim. I was also suggesting that there are far worse fates than death. I also presupposed that the good ones would go unnoticed. That doesn't mean that good ones do exist. The more important take away is that we don't know enough about them to fill out a forum on their ecology.
On a more meta level, I suggested that they are the zombies of Shadowrun, replacing ghouls after ghouls became a playable race. By zombie I mean a trope that allows you to gun down friends and family without moral qualms because their spirits are gone.
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No, you were blatantly being a Shedim apologist in multiple threads, arguing that we just haven't met the good ones or that they're just misunderstood when the books explicitly explain in the out-of-character GM section that they are malevolent beings who only mean harm. We actually do know enough about them to speak on their ecology.
As far as the meta-level goes, I don't think ghouls have ever been in the mindless threat trope. I mean, Bug City went down with an entire neighborhood of ghouls campaigning for rights in the area, and that was early on. Though, that doesn't stop people from arguing the spirit is gone and going on Infected hunts.
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SJG: Montreal is in Ontario. (NO! Montreal is in Quebec!)
I smell a Canadian in the room. Go Flames!
Was the aroma of beaver, maple syrup, and hockey pucks?
All soaked in beer. It was the beer that gave it away for me.
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SJG: Montreal is in Ontario. (NO! Montreal is in Quebec!)
I smell a Canadian in the room. Go Flames!
Was the aroma of beaver, maple syrup, and hockey pucks?
All soaked in beer. It was the beer that gave it away for me.
Oh, you mean 'Real Canadian's Water'. Beer goes without saying!
And with steak
And with lobster
And with french fries
And with flaplacks
And with bacon (especially bacon!)
And with toast....
Yep, beer pretty much goes with everything up here...
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Then with most of your Canadian food options listed (plus tasty water) I would have to say I agree. Also, thread derailed, for which I am only partially sorry for.
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Also, thread derailed, for which I am only partially sorry for.
It's okay, because Out of Beer = Horror?
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Actually, that is a true statement. How a GM horrifies the party: you guys go to your favorite brew pub/dive bar only to find in out they are all out of beer and the town has become beer free, forever! SCARY!!
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You know your team is Canadian when they accept payment in hops instead of nuyen.
Though to be fair, hops may be worth their weight in gold in the future...
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And you know your game is Canadian (well, Quebecois perhaps) if it features a run against the global strategic maple syrup reserve (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/a-look-inside-quebecs-fort-knox-of-maple-syrup/article22262093/).
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And you know your game is Canadian (well, Quebecois perhaps) if it features a run against the global strategic maple syrup reserve (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/a-look-inside-quebecs-fort-knox-of-maple-syrup/article22262093/).
The first time I had heard about that was in regards to the heist that happened there. I had to double-check the date, to make sure it wasn't an April Fool's Day joke. After I finished laughing, many minutes later, I finally got to read the article! ;D
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Actually, here's the thing - a lot of what JoeNapalm ... err, sorry, CitizenJoe ... says is fairly well workable within canon. The problem is, and always has been, exactly what he's saying he does: treats everything written, even out-of-character behind-the-scenes game-level information, as being subject to what is called the 'unreliable narrator'. Take this for example:
The country of which Seattle is a part and of which Dunkelzahn was (for a short time) President is the United Canadian and American States, or 'UCAS'.
This, to everyone else, is game-world fact. For Joe, it's subject to 'unreliable narrator', and could just be a grand conspiracy. He then presents this viewpoint, without the proper addition of 'I think' or some such, to someone asking 'what's the name of the country of which Seattle is a part?'
Joe, unless people ask a question that says 'so in your game' or some variation, they want to know what the books say - what canon is. Canon is, by definition, what the books say. (See dictionary definitions of canon above.) If you'd like a fantastic example of how to successfully present a wacky theory on the boards, see this post (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22993.msg433203#msg433203) - the very first post ever on these boards by a brand-spanking-new individual. S/He already has earned more interest and respect than you have, just for the words 'I've always believed that'.
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Canonically, the Seattle Metroplex was formed by the Treaty of Denver as part of the USA. They did side with and thus join the UCAS when it adopted the Canadian provinces. So, your assertion that Seattle is currently part of UCAS is correct in the legal sense, but Seattle has its own ambassadors as well as other autonomous factors. There is also a canonical faction trying for independence.
As for Dunk being a UCAS citizen, he may have had multiple citizenships based on hit residences, however some of those states have exclusive citizenship... so, whatever citizenship he did have, I could only confirm UCAS after the Act of Congress that let him run for President.
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Don't think I said 'citizen' - or asked about either Seattle's history or politics, just talked about three basic facts.
But at least this time you didn't go into CitJoe Conspiracy Night headspace the way you usually do. And when you're talking about canon, you don't actually have to mention that. Or rather, we don't. At this point, after this long, you actually do.
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Wouldn't the return of the Horrors essentially signal the end of the a playable sixth world, or at the very least dramatically eclipse the cyberpunk themes with somethings else? I'm fine with them never being published.
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That would be true if there was a full-scale incursion of Horrors everywhere. That said, a return of the threat of the Horrors is a whole other story. Small-time Horrors getting in, or people trying to bring them over, that is good plot material.
I mean, people in the Sixth World think Shedim are bad. What do you think they'll consider that which can best be summed up by the thought that a Great Dragon committed ritual suicide to prevent their return?
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Is it suicide if you know you'll live on in the Astral?
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That's if people know that much about it.
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I don't really consider Dunkelzahn to be "people" ;)
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I don't really consider Dunkelzahn to be "people" ;)
Racist.
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I don't really consider Dunkelzahn to be "people" ;)
Racist.
Shouldn't that be Speciest? :P
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@Wyrm... you asked about which country Seattle was a part of. I pointed out that it isn't that simple. Is Puerto Rico part of the United States? Is Guantamo Bay part of th USA? In shadowrun, is Manhattan, Inc. part of the UCAS?
As far as conspiracies go, technically the formation of the USA was a political conspiracy, just not a very secret one. In the most technical sense, the Treaty of Denver was a conspiracy as well as the negotiations that went into annexing Canadian provinces. None of it was particularly nefarious or secret, but a small group did set out to create a new power structure.
As to that connection between Tir na'Nog and Tir Tairngire (the linked thread), the Tairngire elves did pull a lot of power and organization out of what we're thought to be refugees. I'm pretty sure that there was some collusion going on. There was obviously some puppeteering going on but a blatant replacement isn't really necessary for the story.
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Humans define sapient. We usually move the goal posts as things get closer to our definition. What it amounts to is a private club of Homo sapiens. If we deem you worthy, we'll call you sapient. The problem is that dragons are so powerful that they don't want to stoop to be called people.
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I don't really consider Dunkelzahn to be "people" ;)
Racist.
Assumist! I simply meant that Dunkelzahn is obviously far superiour to mere humans... ;)
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@Wyrm... you asked about which country Seattle was a part of. I pointed out that it isn't that simple. Is Puerto Rico part of the United States? Is Guantamo Bay part of th USA? In shadowrun, is Manhattan, Inc. part of the UCAS?
Q1) Yes
Q2) Yes, but you don't want to go there
Q3) are they high enough up the Corp. food chain to have extraterritoriality? If so then no, if not, then yes.
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Which, Joe, is part of my point. "For a straight answer, don't go to CitizenJoe - because not only is he incapable of giving you a straight answer, the answer he gives you probably won't even be canonical." In this case, it IS canonical, but you had to make a particular note of that because of your past history.
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I was hoping you would notice the theme of shades of gray. There's no black and white answers and everything has a price. Things are complicated and that is what makes the discussion worth having.
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Except that isn't always true. Most things are gray, yes. There are still a couple blips of black and white.
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Except that isn't always true. Most things are gray, yes. There are still a couple blips of black and white.
This. Seriously, Joe, yes, most of the time there are shades of grey. But there are things that are laid out as black and white in the canon, and saying otherwise because that doesn't fit your preferences is like saying the world is flat.
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Except that isn't always true. Most things are gray, yes. There are still a couple blips of black and white.
This. Seriously, Joe, yes, most of the time there are shades of grey. But there are things that are laid out as black and white in the canon, and saying otherwise because that doesn't fit your preferences is like saying the world is flat.
And yet, there are those that STILL believe the earth is flat....
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And they used technology that is based on/functions with satellites that orbit our roughly spherical planet to argue it is flat, don't forget that.
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Flat Earth with Care Bears!!
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And they used technology that is based on/functions with satellites that orbit our roughly spherical planet to argue it is flat, don't forget that.
I watch their youtube vids.
Only to reaffrim my disgust in humanity, and to prove to myslf that, yes, people reallly ARE that stupid.