[CitizenJoe]

Re: roads... I 90 is on the published maps in all of the Seattle setting books.  They didn't change the location.

Re: nuclear power plants.  They existed prior to the divergence in the 80's 90's.

This is also what I meant by no true Scotsman.  If you guys are just going to move the goal posts every time I score, I'm not going to take the time to cite stuff for you.

[MijRai]

The divergence goes back before that, if there's such things as Immortal Elves, magical artifacts from previous eras, etc.  Or, who knows, maybe the Trojan-Satsop amalgamation was done later on? 

Argue the Scotsman Fallacy all you want, it doesn't make this level of nitpicking any more justified.  One account of a description being off on which direction, a discrepancy in distance (or who knows, maybe they built some massive tunnel system). 

[CitizenJoe]

Brichert Paper Mills, Thomas Vintners, Seattle Public Library, 20 minute ferry rides from downtown to Tacoma or Everett, Trident sub base in Makah territory... it isn't just one or two discrepancies,  it is rather pervasive.  That's why I say you can't dogmatically follow canon.  Sometimes you have to massage it into making sense. 

[Moonshine Fox]

Brichert Paper Mills, Thomas Vintners, Seattle Public Library, 20 minute ferry rides from downtown to Tacoma or Everett, Trident sub base in Makah territory... it isn't just one or two discrepancies,  it is rather pervasive.  That's why I say you can't dogmatically follow canon.  Sometimes you have to massage it into making sense.

No, what your arguing is that we can't accept the game-makers canon because it doesn't match up with the real world. To bad, deal. That's part of why we have fantasy in the first place. It still doesn't defend your warping of canon regarding topics that exist completely within the fictional world.

And as pointed out, the divergence with our world dates back even as far as the 4th age of Earthdawn, the creatures and people who existed then and the Horrors and the apocalypse they unleashed on the world.

[MijRai]

Or, if someone wants to whine about how Horrors aren't in Catalyst's intellectual property, 'some malevolent metaplanar threat a Great Dragon would commit ritual suicide to prevent' can be substituted for Horrors. 

Like Fox says, they can change little things like that.  If some landmark of Seattle fell over tomorrow, would you claim the books (the official 'this is canon' source) are no longer canon until they say the building fell over back in the 2010s?  Getting a direction incorrect or the placement of a building doesn't please you is no good reason to toss the setting in the trash. 

[CitizenJoe]

Brichert is listed as being up on the hills east of the docks and then explains in another location of the same books that the aroma of Tacoma comes from the paper mill on the docks.  Thomas Vintners is specifically stated to be a hundred years old winery so I did the research and found the winery they were referring  (it is part of Columbia wines now, btw). 

I'm not suggesting that all canon be thrown out.  I'm suggesting that the writers aren't perfect and all knowing.  If they are mistaken in one category, maybe they can be mistaken in another.  Maybe they don't know what the next writer or publishing company is going to do. 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Joe, all we're telling you to do - no, all we're asking you to do - is that, when someone asks a question, which by default is asking about what the canon of Shadowrun is, is to either give them canon or - and here's where you apparently seem to be claiming your intellectual liberties are being violated - to simply do what all the rest of us do, and say something along the lines of 'in my game', 'I think that', or whatever.  You made your position crystal clear:

But let me make this point VERY clear.  I will NEVER debase my opinion with something so self evidently obvious as "I think" or "in my opinion". 

So really?  In the context of these boards, which by default discusses canon, by not stating such (your opinion, your game, whatever) you claim that your otherwise-very-interesting diatribes are canon.  Which they're not - unless you're secretly one of the writers, which I don't think you are.

Again, the olive branch:

We'll respect you a hell of a lot more for it - and we'll actually be able to have discussions with you instead of the standard 'shut up, Joe, you moron' responses that we come out with whenever you post.  Trust me, we really WOULD like to talk about this stuff with you, but since you post as though your ideas are canon, all we can do is hammer you for them.

So we aren't shutting down discussion of your thoughs; YOU ARE.  If you want us to actually talk about your ideas, some of which could be useful, then just get with the fucking program and post seperate 'what has been officially written' from 'what I think is going on' instead of just throwing up 'what I think is going on' as though it were 'what has been officially written'.

If not, get used to being fucking ignored.

[CitizenJoe]

Ah, I see the problem.  You think the default is canon.  I simply don't agree.  Shadowrun is an interactive media as opposed to a book or movie.  The author can't dictate the motivations of the actors because they are out of his hands.  The actors cannot know the motivations of the author because he is out of their hands.  The best we can hope for is an honest report of the events that transpire.  Even that is clouded by obfuscation in the world of Shadowrun. 

My conspiracy theories almost exclusively deal with motivations.  This is intentional because, like all good conspiracy theories, they can't be proven either way.  They don't change anything, but can act as motivations for others along the way.

[PiXeL01]

All you are doing is confuse the people coming here seeking clarity by offering your altered version of the setting instead of the canon information that is actually sought.
So you are basically just being a sophisticated troll?

[CitizenJoe]

This thread was answered in the second post.  Everything after that was speculation.  I don't know what Internet you've been on, but "I read it on the internet so it must be true." has been a joke for like 10 years now.  Let me explain the joke for you... most of the Internet is full of opinions so you're naive to think something is true just because you read it on the internet.  Thus the default is everything on the internet is opinion.

[Mirikon]

Joe, there is a difference between speculation firmly rooted in canon, with evidence and logic behind it, and saying "I don't like blue, so the sky is red in my world." The rest of us are doing the former, for the most part, and clearly stating 'in my game', or 'in my opinion', where we're not. You want to get into a discussion of the philosophy of game settings or game design, you'll get a far better response in the general or off topic forums, especially if you mark it as such. But being shown a globe, and then saying "Screw that, we're going with a cube instead," isn't going to promote discussion of your ideas. It is going to make us lay the hammer down so the rest of us can talk without wading through the crazy.

[Agonar]

Ah, I see the problem.  You think the default is canon.  I simply don't agree.

In fact, that's the meaning of the word..

canon
[kan-uh n]

noun

the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic:

Anything other than what the authors present is, by definition, not canon, not authentic, and therefore a houserule, or home modification.  I take canon and throw it out the window all the time.  Oh, a certain corp did this?  Well in my game, it went down differently.  But I'll let people know that it was in my game because it's the courteous thing to do so that people aren't looking for official backing of something that I made up for my game.

As a GM, I can be equally interested in Canon vs GM ideas.  I often want to know how things went down canonically so that I can think about how best to change things to fit my game.  Sometimes other GMs have good ideas, and I incorporate their changes to my game as well, but only after knowing what the Canon of the situation was.

[MijRai]

Yeah...  Canon is the default by (pun intended) default.  Trying to argue otherwise is ludicrous.  Yes, the author can dictate the motivation of the of the actors as well.  It is really simple, too.  All they have to do is write 'this is the motivation of ___,' which is therefore canon and accurate in the game as a whole.  You can't change it being canon (though you can adjust things in your game), and you can't say canon is 'wrong' (though you can change things in your game if it suits the group).   

This is by no means a mark against things like homebrew and adjustments to suit a particular table; more power to you to adjust things to make it the most fun for your group!  That said, it is where everything comes from, and diverging from it is going away from the baseline. 

You said adding I think or in my opinion 'debases' your ideas?  Oh no, cry us a river.  Maybe row your way out of threads regarding canon when you're doing so, as you refuse to actually acknowledge the canon we're discussing. 

[CitizenJoe]

Joe, there is a difference between speculation firmly rooted in canon, with evidence and logic behind it, and saying "I don't like blue, so the sky is red in my world."

Actually,  I take canonical events and then theorize stuff around them.  We kicked this one off with Dunkelzahn used thread magic (the power being the title of President of the UCAS) to power up his spell. 

He's a Dragon. Check.

He became President.  Check.

He waited until after becoming president to cast the spell. Check.

Now, I'll give you that I don't know for sure that Dunkelzahn didn't have a "Tear Hole in Reality" spell usable at will, but I like to think he needed some extra boost. 

Now, using Earthdawn. 

Dragons are Namegivers. Check.

Dragons can use thread magic. Check.

Thread magic can boost the skills and abilities of people, places and things.  Check with an asterisk.  Thread magic is complicated.  You can boost the attributes of the target, or you can boost your own abilities when dealing with the target. The direct path would involve the Title of President of the UCAS is a person, separate from the actual person holding the title.  Dunk could weave to the President, which coincidentally happened to be himself.  That's a little sketchy rules wise, so the other route would be a place (the UCAS), which requires a key knowledge and pattern item associated with being the President.  Or it could be a magic item that required a deed of being the president. Regardless, thread magic is within the knowledge base of any surviving 4th worlder.

Thread magic requires a pattern item.  Dunkelzahn had a long list of items that he gave away in his Will. At least 1 was a pattern item (the rose/flower?).  It is reasonable that he could have found the relevant pattern item.  Check.

Now, you could say that Earthdawn and Shadowrun are different intellectual properties, held by two different companies, however, at the time of spellcasting, both were still held by FASA and Dunkelzahn's Will was an attempt to codify the two properties together. So 4th World magic, check.

Where exactly do I say the sky is anything but blue?

[MijRai]

You're talking like this is the only thing you've 'theorized' on, or that everything you discuss has conceivable merits. 

How about we talk about you being an apologist for Shedim?  By canon, Shedim are malevolent, metaplanar entities whose mere presence is inimical to life; on top of that, they are united by their undying hatred of all things living.  They like to acquire corpses (or steal bodies when possible) in order to stick around on Earth so they can kill, cause mayhem/chaos, kill more, incite more killing, etc.  It isn't like they are instinctual predators either; they don't gain any sustenance from killing and have infiltrated governments and other organizations in attempts to manipulate metahumanity into causing more violence and bloodshed.  One good example is when the moderate Ibn Eiza was assassinated.  A Master Shedim took over his body, convinced everyone a miracle brought him back to life and then started the New Islamic Jihad.  Even after he was revealed to be a malevolent spirit possessing a corpse in 2064, there are fighters in the mountains of the Balkans (and probably elsewhere) who are still fighting and killing their fellow metahumans, thinking the 'revelation' was a sham trying to discredit their leader.