Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: DigitalZombie on <09-28-19/1439:12>
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Page 196 tells us this about rigging
3. If the only way you have to controlling vehicles is your pilot skill, youre not a rigger, youre a driver. Being a rigger means having an VCR ( or being a technomancer with the right complex forms submersion).
4. Rigging can be done in AR and VR
The next page goes on talking about rigging in AR and VR.
My question is: can you really rig in AR? I dont think the VCR has any use if youre not in VR. So is the section just using the rigging term wrong? And should instead be using "controlling" or piloting, and use rigging when the mean VCR use?
Answer: control device in AR/VR mode. Jump in only VR mode.
And a follow up question: it seems to me, when a drone ( when not direclty controlled, or jumped into) is fired upon it rolls piloting+ evasion autosoft to evade the attack, or piloting -1 if it doesnt have the autosoft loaded.
Is that correctly understood?
Answer: correct and correct
Furthermore are the autosofts no longer limited by the pilot rating of the drone?
Answer: correct, limit would likely be 6
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And a follow up question: it seems to me, when a drone ( when not direclty controlled, or jumped into) is fired upon it rolls piloting+ evasion autosoft to evade the attack, or piloting -1 if it doesnt have the autosoft loaded.
Is that correctly understood?
Yes you find those informations on page 201. So there is only an example for a Drone not having Weapon skill Autosoft but the Evasion being the same makes sense. (without a special rules general rules apply so Pilot Stat-1 it is ^^)
Furthermore are the autosofts no longer limited by the pilot rating of the drone?
I had the same question. It was generally suggested in this Forum to use the max Rating 6 for Drone Autosofts because thats the max Rating from 4th and 5th Edition. I will use that Rating max 6 too for now because its easier to give more Rating later than to take it away from Players.
The rest of your questions no idea :)
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My interpretation is rigging in AR is driving ala Mario kart. You're controlling but it's with control stick or AR gloves while viewing the
apartment ablertablet or imagelink overlay. Functionally, I picture SR's AR being what we call VR in our real world but only because we can't jump in.
As rigging is a term of art while piloting can also be a skill, I'll say there are BBQ level arguments on that question but it's irrelevant for rulings
Piloting plus evasion or piloting -1 is how I also understand it.
I did not see it but suspect it's another edition blindness errata.
edited to correct the autocorrect
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My interpretation is rigging in AR is driving ala Mario kart. You're controlling but it's with control stick or AR gloves while viewing the apartment abler or imagelink overlay.
For the simplest, least divisive, least controversial, ruling I'd go with this and try not to think on it too much.
For those that want to dive deeper into the rabbit hole, I present the following:
For the moment, let's put game mechanics aside. The difference - in-game - between AR and VR is pretty much that you can still perceive the world around you while in AR. If you are familiar with the Magic System, it is analogous to Astral Perception (AR) and Astral Projection (VR). To even be in AR, you need a DNI (Direct Neural Interface). [[For the record, this was Rigging prior to 4th.]]
As such, you do not need any physical controls (even AR ones) to do your piloting. You can do it completely mentally.
The only mechanical difference is (or should be) that you can't react as fast, hence your Initiative (and Action count) is lower.
Now, you are most likely about to ask me "if I'm still capable of piloting completely mentally while in AR, why do I need to use my Physical Attributes?"
To that, I say "Pffft. You got me. My best answer is trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole."
That is why I recommend using the "game pad" explanation.
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The rules for rigging is a little disjointed, with implementation spread all over the book. I had to do a lot of cross-referencing while looking up information on how to build a rigger character, and I still have loads of questions.
The next page goes on talking about rigging in AR and VR.
My question is: can you really rig in AR? I dont think the VCR has any use if youre not in VR. So is the section just using the rigging term wrong? And should instead be using "controlling" or piloting, and use rigging when the mean VCR use?
I would agree with you on the term "rigging" being used inconsistently, but not necessarily "wrong" per se. When you're using AR to control a vehicle, you have to do so using the Control Device Matrix Action. This confused me for a while, because you can also use this action while in VR.
The way I see it, there are 5 distinct ways of getting a vehicle to go from point A to point b:
1. Use GridGuide
2. Use the onboard Pilot program
3. Remote Control (AR)
4. Remote Control (VR)
5. Jumped In Control.
The first two are largely the same, but they are distinct because the second can be done while the device is off the Matrix (i.e. cannot be hacked). 3 and 4 only differ in what attributes you use for the test (physical in AR, mental in VR, SR6 page 180), while 5 is similar to 4 but is the only method that actually requires a Control Rig (SR6 page 197).
Take the Control Rig itself, for example (SR6 page 283); it only provides it's bonus when "you are jumped into a vehicle or drone". The RCC, on the other hand, provides "the rigger the ability to control more than one drone or vehicle at a time" (SR6 page 197).
Ultimately, then, this question mostly comes down semantics, because there is technically no clear definition of what "rigging" is, nor is there a rule that explicitly depends on this term. To my mind you are "a rigger" if A) you are jumping into a vehicle with a Control Rig, B) you are using an RCC to send commands to multiple drones at a time, and/or C) you are using the Control Device action from VR. Once you move into the AR remote control method I feel like you're entering the grey area between rigging and piloting, because you are now using your physical attributes instead of your mental ones, but this is purely how I feel and not at all a "rules" interpretation.
And a follow up question: it seems to me, when a drone ( when not direclty controlled, or jumped into) is fired upon it rolls piloting+ evasion autosoft to evade the attack, or piloting -1 if it doesnt have the autosoft loaded.
Is that correctly understood?
Furthermore are the autosofts no longer limited by the pilot rating of the drone?
Correct and correct.
Some other questions I accumulated over the past few days.
1. When exactly do you gain the bonus point of Edge for having a control rig?
"When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its rating as a dice pool bonus on all vehicle skill tests and a bonus point of Edge."
Once when you jump in, or every time you take an action that the control rig would affect (up to the usual 2/Combat Round)?
2. How does an anthro drone perform an unarmed attack?
A jumped in rigger would simply calculate attack rating (normally Strength + Reaction) using Charisma + Intuition, with a DV of (Charisma/2, round up); Page 196 seems to suggest that "vehicles and drones have an attack rating of the driver's Piloting skill + Sensor, which would be the Maneuvering autosoft + Sensor, or Sensor -1, but how do you calculate DV? Pilot / 2, round up, as Pilot stands in for most other physical and mental attributes?
3. Can you slave non-vehicle devices to an RCC equal to it's Data Processing attribute in addition to it's Rating x 3 of vehicles and drones?
4. Can a weapon mount hold different types of ammunition and switch between them, or are you restricted to only a single type of ammo?
5. More of a decker question, but how do drones and vehicles resist Matrix damage, and can they be hit by biofeedback damage?
6. Related, why is the entry for Encryption on page 198 different from the one on page 184? Can I use either? Both?
7. If a microdrone (operating independently or piloted by a rigger) uses the Stealth skill, how does this interact with the size modifiers introduced by the errata?
A microdrone adds 4 to the threshold to spot it using Perception, but Stealth is normally an opposed check.
I have some other questions as well, but those are very niche and I'll save them for after errata comes out.
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For the moment, let's put game mechanics aside. The difference - in-game - between AR and VR is pretty much that you can still perceive the world around you while in AR. If you are familiar with the Magic System, it is analogous to Astral Perception (AR) and Astral Projection (VR). To even be in AR, you need a DNI (Direct Neural Interface). [[For the record, this was Rigging prior to 4th.]]
Emphasis mine. Not entirely correct:
When you enter augmented reality, whether you use an implanted image link, AR-capable glasses, a datajack, or a technomancer’s innate perception, your perspective on the world around you will change dramatically.
In other words, glasses with an Image Link lets you interface with AR. Your analogy still holds up, by the way, and it's a good one if you ask me, but DNI is not required to use AR.
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For the moment, let's put game mechanics aside. The difference - in-game - between AR and VR is pretty much that you can still perceive the world around you while in AR. If you are familiar with the Magic System, it is analogous to Astral Perception (AR) and Astral Projection (VR). To even be in AR, you need a DNI (Direct Neural Interface). [[For the record, this was Rigging prior to 4th.]]
Emphasis mine. Not entirely correct:
When you enter augmented reality, whether you use an implanted image link, AR-capable glasses, a datajack, or a technomancer’s innate perception, your perspective on the world around you will change dramatically.
In other words, glasses with an Image Link lets you interface with AR. Your analogy still holds up, by the way, and it's a good one if you ask me, but DNI is not required to use AR.
sigh You are, of course, correct. In my head there is a difference between being in AR, and simply using it. I'll have to crush that distinction one day.
In my defense, if you are a Rigger contemplating AR versus VR, you have a Control Rig that gives you DNI. So, there is that. :P
For the record, I have the same questions as you do from your earlier post - especially the bonus point of Edge granted from the Control Rig because it reads as if there is only a single bonus point without any real indication of when it is gained.
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5. More of a decker question, but how do drones and vehicles resist Matrix damage, [...]
You find that on page 179 "Drones use their Pilot Rating in Place of the Mental Attribute". So when the Defense says Firewall, an autonomous Drone would defend Pilot as Firewall. The Device Rating to determine the Matrix condition Monitor is found on page 201 "their Device Rating to be equal to their Sensor rating."
I dont see anywhere how the Mental Attributes or the Device rating would turn by default into Firewall.
To see Autonomous Drone Firewall being Pilot ratingx1 you have to read the sentence on page 179 carefully, see Xenons Answer below ^^
5. [...] and can they be hit by biofeedback damage?
Id say no because if you look at IC there is IC that does both Biofeedback and Matrix damage at the same time (called Black IC), there is IC that only does Biofeedback Damage (called Sparky) and IC that only does Matrix damage (called Killer).
So Biofeedback damage does not turn to Matrix damage. When you are in Cold Sim its stun, in Hot Sim its physical.
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Either you ask the auto pilot to take an action on its own (using its own ratings)
...or you control it yourself (using your own ratings).
You can control it yourself in different ways:
1. Manual control
2. Remote control
3. Jumped in
Manual control can be done without being connected to the matrix at all or while in AR mode. Cannot be done while in VR mode. Noise penalties does never apply when using Manual contol. Must physically be in the driver seat of the vehicle.
Remote control can be done from either AR mode or VR mode. Can be done while directly connected or via remote. If done via remote then noise penalties applies.
Jumped in can only be done from VR mode. Cannot be done from AR mode. Can be done while directly connected or via remote. If done via remote then noise penalties applies. Taking the jump require a Vehicle Control Rig implant.
If you are using a device via Augmented Reality, and the device requires a Physical attribute, use your normal Physical attribute for this test. If you are using this device via Virtual Reality, and the device requires a Physical attribute, substitute the appropriate Mental attribute for this test. (Body = Willpower, Agility = Logic, Reaction = Intuition, Strength = Charisma).
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So when the Defense says Firewall, an autonomous Drone would defend by using Firewall against Matrix damage but it has 0 by default.
If the vehicle is part of a larger network then odds are there will be a Firewall rating in there that it may use.
I dont see anywhere how the Mental Attributes or the Device rating would turn by default into Firewall.
If a hacker is trying to control an unattended device (perhaps a random maglock) then it will defend against the attempt using its device rating (standing in for the mental attribute, willpower in this case) and the firewall (if any) it might have access to.
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I dont see anywhere how the Mental Attributes or the Device rating would turn by default into Firewall.
If a hacker is trying to control an unattended device (perhaps a random maglock) then it will defend against the attempt using its device rating (standing in for the mental attribute, willpower in this case) and the firewall (if any) it might have access to.
Got any pages from 6th Edition where this is written ? I just quoted the book that Pilot is standing for the Mental Attributes in 6th Edition. And other than Technomancers using Willpower as Firewall there seems to be no general rule for that.
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Sorry. I realized that I was simply going by SR5 memory and was about to delete my entire post when I noticed you already replied.
In SR6 it is resolved like this:
SR6 p. 180 Control Device
If there is no test associated with the device you wish to use, use Electronics + Logic vs. Firewall + Willpower.
SR6 p. 179 Matrix Actions
Where two different dice pools are listed, such as “Intuition + Firewall or Sleaze + Firewall,” personas with Mental attributes will use the pool that include those attributes. Drones will use their Pilot Rating where listed.
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Now that was better than deleting the post, so its Pilot+0 for autonomous drones :) just realized that when reading the sentence again
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...and if the drone is part of a larger network (WAN or PAN) then it probably also have access to a firewall rating (from the Host or a commlink / cyberjack / RCC in the PAN)
Then again, when using the Control Action to remote control a drone then you just need to have User access and take the test associated with the action you are performing as normal and as if the drone is your own (e.g. Pilot + Reaction in AR or Pilot + Intuition in VR or Engineering + Logic for firing - not an Opposed Electronics + Logic vs. Firewall + Willpower test)
SR6 p. 180 Control Device
While you have control, you can use the device as if you were the owner using a standard skill test, including turning the device off if you have Admin access.
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Well strictly by the words, word by word, an autonomous Drone is a sitting Duck with 0 Firewall and 1xPilot (useless) Willpower when resisting Matrix Damage. You can very gently try to read that it has Pilotx1 rating as a "general" defensive dicepool.
But as Xenon wrote normally the Drone would be under 99,9% of the time part of a Host, a RCC a Commlink and thus have a Firewall ...
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2. How does an anthro drone perform an unarmed attack?
A jumped in rigger would simply calculate attack rating (normally Strength + Reaction) using Charisma + Intuition, with a DV of (Charisma/2, round up); Page 196 seems to suggest that "vehicles and drones have an attack rating of the driver's Piloting skill + Sensor, which would be the Maneuvering autosoft + Sensor, or Sensor -1, but how do you calculate DV? Pilot / 2, round up, as Pilot stands in for most other physical and mental attributes?
Page 200-201 Using Vehicles/Drones as Weapons Damage is Body/2 rounded up, +1 for each current Speed Interval, and its Physical Damage
So when the Drone is standing still Speed Interval is +0 DV.
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Yeah, Ramming is the only method I've found too, and that makes sense for all vehicles that do not have arms.
The Nissan Oni specifically has limbs with "retractable blades", but no way to attack with them other than bashing it's whole body against the opponent?
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Alot of good answers, and new relevant questions. I will update the original posts with your answers and questions, as soon as Im on something else than a phone.
Another drone question:
A technomancer has access to emulate program. Besides normal hacking programs it can emulate autosofts ( rating = technomancer DP). But how on earth is that autosoft used?
As when the technomancer is either jumped im, or using control device he is using his own skills, and not autosofts. So does the technomancer work like an RCC-lite version, where he is able to share his autosoft with any or all drones? Would he need to have the drones slaved to his technomancer PAN (granted via submerging)? Or can he grant it to drones slaved to commlinks, RCC or whatever, without thr techno autosoft taking any program slots?
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Well strictly by the words, word by word, an autonomous Drone is a sitting Duck with 0 Firewall and 1xPilot (useless) Willpower when resisting Matrix Damage. You can very gently try to read that it has Pilotx1 rating as a "general" defensive dicepool.
But as Xenon wrote normally the Drone would be under 99,9% of the time part of a Host, a RCC a Commlink and thus have a Firewall ...
Thing I was quoting was when for example a maglock or elevator etc is opposing (or defending against) the Control Device action. Different matrix actions are opposed by different mental and matrix attributes. When you have User or Admin access on a Drone it will normally not oppose the Control Device action at all. You just take the Pilot or Engineering test as if you are a legit user of the drone.
As per errata, Matrix damage is normally only resisted (or soaked) with Firewall while Biofeedback (which deal stun or physical damage to the actual operator in case he or she is in cold- or hot-sim VR mode.... rather than Matrix Damage to his or her device) is normally resisted with Willpower.
So does the technomancer work like an RCC-lite version, where he is able to share his autosoft with any or all drones?
Could this perhaps simply be in preparation to future supplements?
For example, in SR5 Kill Code there was a data stream called Machinist that had the Deamon ability that let them emulate all effects you normally got from a RCC (including sharing autosofts to drones slaved to their living persona).
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Another drone question:
A technomancer has access to emulate program. Besides normal hacking programs it can emulate autosofts ( rating = technomancer DP). But how on earth is that autosoft used?
1.Technomancer can take control of a opponent Riggers Drone, the Drone had the Autosoft on the Riggers RCC, is now useless.
2. Now he uses the emulate autosoft to give the Drone the approriate Weapon skill.
3. Drone starts firing on the Opponents :)
That can be made even better by using Machine Sprite to boost the Drones Pilot Rating.
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Yeah, Ramming is the only method I've found too, and that makes sense for all vehicles that do not have arms.
The Nissan Oni specifically has limbs with "retractable blades", but no way to attack with them other than bashing it's whole body against the opponent?
If you look at the Cyber Implant Weapons on page 290 they all do 3P or less. So with his Body 9 and the resulting DV 5 the Oni should leave his Blades retracted :) to be errated i d say
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Yeah, Ramming is the only method I've found too, and that makes sense for all vehicles that do not have arms.
The Nissan Oni specifically has limbs with "retractable blades", but no way to attack with them other than bashing it's whole body against the opponent?
If you look at the Cyber Implant Weapons on page 290 they all do 3P or less. So with his Body 9 and the resulting DV 5 the Oni should leave his Blades retracted :) to be errated i d say
Hah, fair.
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1.Technomancer can take control of a opponent Riggers Drone, the Drone had the Autosoft on the Riggers RCC, is now useless.
2. Now he uses the emulate autosoft to give the Drone the approriate Weapon skill.
3. Drone starts firing on the Opponents :)
Either gain Access on the drone and control it yourself (using your own Pilot and Engineering ratings) in which case both autopilot and autosofts ratings have no impact at all on the outcome Or Spoof a Command to the drone's autopilot, instructing it to open fire or you, in which case it will use its own autopilot rating but also the autosoft rating still running on the RCC it is slaved to.
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1.Technomancer can take control of a opponent Riggers Drone, the Drone had the Autosoft on the Riggers RCC, is now useless.
2. Now he uses the emulate autosoft to give the Drone the approriate Weapon skill.
3. Drone starts firing on the Opponents :)
Either gain Access on the drone and control it yourself (using your own Pilot and Engineering ratings) in which case both autopilot and autosofts ratings have no impact at all on the outcome Or Spoof a Command to the drone's autopilot, instructing it to open fire or you, in which case it will use its own autopilot rating but also the autosoft rating still running on the RCC it is slaved to.
As long as the Rigger is alive he can turn the Drone off using the anytime Action "Change Device Mode" for one Minor Action. So you either have to kill/Knock out him first or brick his RCC. Killing the Rigger would be better usually thats true, as you said you want his Autosofts.
So if the RCC gets destroyed because the Rigger dies in an explosion for example there is a way where the "Emulate:Autosoft" gets useful.
Generally speaking using the "Command Drone" Action is alot better than using your own stats, exception when your stats are a lot higher. Because the Technomancer uses 1 Minor Action to issue a command, then the Drone uses 1 Major Action 5 Minor Actions to shoot ...
The Emulate Autosoft produces an Autosoft Rating equal to the Technomancers Data Processing, that can be pretty high too.
edit: could as well be an oldschool rigger being jagged in without using Autosoft. As i mentioned in the other thread im 6th edition you can attack them while they are jacked in using matrix combat. So kill rigger with data spike, use his drone via Emulate autosoft.
edit2: you can linklock the rigger so he cant turn the drone off. but linklocking his RCC and the Drone is not very efficient.
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Instead of starting a new thread, Ill continue here instead.
First: The control rig chart with the attribute conversion table.
Agility and reaction to logic and intuition makes super sense- No worries there.
But strength to charisma?? By RAW a drone would suddenly have a crazy high lift/carry score when controlled by a good-lookin elven chick with charisma 8.
In what scenario would IT actually make sense to have charisma modify a strength based test in a drone?
Same with body to willpower? I supposed its just for feedback dmg? As normal dmg resist should still be the drones body score. But why have it part og the table then?
Secondly: why invent new rules for physical defence ratings? Why should it be pilot+ sensor? Body+ armour would make more sense- less confusing and more streamlined.
Same with attack rating (partly) why have it be a skill (piloting) and an attribute (sensor).
Personally Im looking at changing it to physical defence rating = body + armour
Attack rating = drone body (drone body should also be their strength score) + pilot ( the drones closest equivelant to reaction)/intuition/reaction when controlled/jumped in.
Thirdly: RCC programs. Encryption program for deck gives a bonus when trying to encrypt stuff. Encryption program for RCC gives +1 firewall, like in 5th edition. I presume the RCC encryption should be errataed to function like the deck program. Or at the very least undergo a name change to something Else.
And can a drone benefit from pilot/2 programs AND RCC programs at the same time? They couldnt in 5th, but 6th doesnt explain it super well I think.
Fourthly: Im somewhat saddened by how the drone attribute in general Works.
I was hoping for some more stream lining here.
Like Drone body is a stand in for the body and strength attribute.
Pilot is a stand in for agility and reaction. And sensor is a stand in for All mental attributes- when relevant. (Or maybe pilot should have agility, reaction and logic).
Instead we have body = body, but not on defence ratings
Pilot = reaction for piloting, and defense tests.
Pilot = agility for stealth but not attacking
Pilot = strength for attack rating, but No other rules for strength
Pilot = intuition for initiative, but not for anything else
Pilot = body in defence rating, but not for anything else
Sensor= agility but only for attacking
Sensor = logic for the cracking skill
Sensor = intuition for detecting stuff
Sensor = reaction but only for attack rating
Defense test is pilot (makes sense) + autosoft ( makes less sense/at least not streamlined). Not attribute+ attribute
( I think I got these right. Please correct med if not)
Nothing about strength scores beyond this except that when jumped in its charisma.
Furthermore, I cant find anything about the fuzzy logic test in 6th, when the dogbrain is confronted with a dilemma/situation. ( Used to be pilot*2 I think)
Furthermore they have 1 condition monitor of body/2 + 8 (makes sense)
But I believe they also have a Matrix condition monitor as well right? Which would be sensor/2 +8 ?
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Instead of starting a new thread, Ill continue here instead.
First: The control rig chart with the attribute conversion table.
Agility and reaction to logic and intuition makes super sense- No worries there.
But strength to charisma?? By RAW a drone would suddenly have a crazy high lift/carry score when controlled by a good-lookin elven chick with charisma 8.
In what scenario would IT actually make sense to have charisma modify a strength based test in a drone?
Wait, wait, wait. The conversion is for the RIGGER'S stats while in VR, which of course doesn't even occur if you're in AR. But even while in VR, even while Jumped In, the Drone's stats don't change.
Secondly: why invent new rules for physical defence ratings? Why should it be pilot+ sensor? Body+ armour would make more sense- less confusing and more streamlined.
Same with attack rating (partly) why have it be a skill (piloting) and an attribute (sensor).
Personally Im looking at changing it to physical defence rating = body + armour
Attack rating = drone body (drone body should also be their strength score) + pilot ( the drones closest equivelant to reaction)/intuition/reaction when controlled/jumped in.
Because Body+Armor results in ridiculously high DRs. If the rigger is in control (Remote Control or Jumped In) it's Rigger's Pilot Skill rating + vehicle/drone's Armor. If the (auto)Pilot program is in control, it's Pilot + Armor. DR of high 20s or even 30s isn't good for game balance. At least while we're talking about vehicles that aren't actually tanks.
Thirdly: RCC programs. Encryption program for deck gives a bonus when trying to encrypt stuff. Encryption program for RCC gives +1 firewall, like in 5th edition. I presume the RCC encryption should be errataed to function like the deck program. Or at the very least undergo a name change to something Else.
And can a drone benefit from pilot/2 programs AND RCC programs at the same time? They couldnt in 5th, but 6th doesnt explain it super well I think.
We're aware. Can't comment further.
Fourthly: Im somewhat saddened by how the drone attribute in general Works.
I was hoping for some more stream lining here.
Like Drone body is a stand in for the body and strength attribute.
Pilot is a stand in for agility and reaction. And sensor is a stand in for All mental attributes- when relevant. (Or maybe pilot should have agility, reaction and logic).
Instead we have body = body, but not on defence ratings
Pilot = reaction for piloting, and defense tests.
Pilot = agility for stealth but not attacking
Pilot = strength for attack rating, but No other rules for strength
Pilot = intuition for initiative, but not for anything else
Pilot = body in defence rating, but not for anything else
Sensor= agility but only for attacking
Sensor = logic for the cracking skill
Sensor = intuition for detecting stuff
Sensor = reaction but only for attack rating
Defense test is pilot (makes sense) + autosoft ( makes less sense/at least not streamlined). Not attribute+ attribute
( I think I got these right. Please correct med if not)
Nothing about strength scores beyond this except that when jumped in its charisma.
It's regrettable that you're not happy. But in simple terms, it's at least neat and tidy that Pilot stands in for physical attributes, and sensor stands in for mental attributes? And honestly I don't recall Strength being addressed at all, but in absence of a rule it sure seems fair that a drone's Strength equals its Body, if STR becomes relevant for some reason.
Furthermore, I cant find anything about the fuzzy logic test in 6th, when the dogbrain is confronted with a dilemma/situation. ( Used to be pilot*2 I think)
Yep, I wish this stayed in too. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from using that mechanic. Or, just maybe, dogbrains have advanced in 2080 to the point where even the low ratings won't do dumb drek on you, and they just act like regular NPCs? (I prefer the former, like you probably do too)
Furthermore they have 1 condition monitor of body/2 + 8 (makes sense)
But I believe they also have a Matrix condition monitor as well right? Which would be sensor/2 +8 ?
Every device, to include vehicles and drones, has a Matrix Condition Monitor. Your guns, your shoelaces, even the cloud of simsense-broadcasting "flavor additives" floating in your ramen. MCMs are Device Rating/2 + 8, but yes IIRC sensor stands in for DR for vehicles/drones.
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Instead of starting a new thread, Ill continue here instead.
First: The control rig chart with the attribute conversion table.
Agility and reaction to logic and intuition makes super sense- No worries there.
But strength to charisma?? By RAW a drone would suddenly have a crazy high lift/carry score when controlled by a good-lookin elven chick with charisma 8.
In what scenario would IT actually make sense to have charisma modify a strength based test in a drone?
Wait, wait, wait. The conversion is for the RIGGER'S stats while in VR, which of course doesn't even occur if you're in AR. But even while in VR, even while Jumped In, the Drone's stats don't change.
Aah I didnt mean in AR mode :) sorry
BUT the table actually says "jumped in attribute" and goes on to explain that a rigger would use his mental Attributes in place of his physical when making tests while jumped in.
I believe that section would benefit from a clarification. As Zerosum already quoted the CHA/2 as dmg in this thread.
Secondly: why invent new rules for physical defence ratings? Why should it be pilot+ sensor? Body+ armour would make more sense- less confusing and more streamlined.
Same with attack rating (partly) why have it be a skill (piloting) and an attribute (sensor).
Personally Im looking at changing it to physical defence rating = body + armour
Attack rating = drone body (drone body should also be their strength score) + pilot ( the drones closest equivelant to reaction)/intuition/reaction when controlled/jumped in.
Because Body+Armor results in ridiculously high DRs. If the rigger is in control (Remote Control or Jumped In) it's Rigger's Pilot Skill rating + vehicle/drone's Armor. If the (auto)Pilot program is in control, it's Pilot + Armor. DR of high 20s or even 30s isn't good for game balance. At least while we're talking about vehicles that aren't actually tanks.
You are of course right. Which begs the question... Why give vehicles such a high armour value that you would need to reinvent how physical defence rating would be calculated?
For instance the Steel Lynx has body 12, armour 16 and a pilot rating of 4. For a RAW defence rating of 20. If it instead had had an armour rating of "just" 8. It would also have had a defence rating of 20, when we just used the normal calculation method of body+armour.
It seems like they created the problem by giving vehicles super high armour ratings- 5th edition ratings. And instead of toning the armour ratings down to 6th ed. Levels, they invented a new defence rating logic - just for vehicles.
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Fourthly: Im somewhat saddened by how the drone attribute in general Works.
I was hoping for some more stream lining here.
Like Drone body is a stand in for the body and strength attribute.
Pilot is a stand in for agility and reaction. And sensor is a stand in for All mental attributes- when relevant. (Or maybe pilot should have agility, reaction and logic).
Instead we have body = body, but not on defence ratings
Pilot = reaction for piloting, and defense tests.
Pilot = agility for stealth but not attacking
Pilot = strength for attack rating, but No other rules for strength
Pilot = intuition for initiative, but not for anything else
Pilot = body in defence rating, but not for anything else
Sensor= agility but only for attacking
Sensor = logic for the cracking skill
Sensor = intuition for detecting stuff
Sensor = reaction but only for attack rating
Defense test is pilot (makes sense) + autosoft ( makes less sense/at least not streamlined). Not attribute+ attribute
( I think I got these right. Please correct me if not)
Nothing about strength scores beyond this except that when jumped in its charisma.
It's regrettable that you're not happy. But in simple terms, it's at least neat and tidy that Pilot stands in for physical attributes, and sensor stands in for mental attributes? And honestly I don't recall Strength being addressed at all, but in absence of a rule it sure seems fair that a drone's Strength equals its Body, if STR becomes relevant for some reason.
Aah maybe my post wasnt clear. I would have loved IF pilot was reaction and agility, and sensor was mental Attributes. Alas that isnt the case. Pilot is some agility based actions -like stealth. While Sensor is other agility based actions like firearms or closecombat.
Which of course is somewhat muddied by the fact that under the "Drone rigging" section it says: .." once the command is given the drone will use pilot as its attack Attribute and any autosofts it is running as its skill".
But then the example and autosoft section uses Sensor for attacking (which I believe is correct RAW).
Now, changing vehicle Attributes to: body for body and strength. Pilot for agility and reaction. Sensor for mental Attributes. and whenever in the control of a character All Attributes, except body/strength Would be replaced by said characters Attributes ( or mental stand in when in VR ). This would be a lot more intuitively, and require less space in the book.
This would naturally also mean that the "purpose" og pilot and sensor somewhat chances. As the "dogbrain" part would be sensor, and not pilot.
Personality Im willing to sacrifice that part for more streamlining and and intuitive approach.
We're aware. Can't comment further.
Yep, I wish this stayed in too. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from using that mechanic. Or, just maybe, dogbrains have advanced in 2080 to the point where even the low ratings won't do dumb drek on you, and they just act like regular NPCs? (I prefer the former, like you probably do too)
Every device, to include vehicles and drones, has a Matrix Condition Monitor. Your guns, your shoelaces, even the cloud of simsense-broadcasting "flavor additives" floating in your ramen. MCMs are Device Rating/2 + 8, but yes IIRC sensor stands in for DR for vehicles/drones.
Good to hear. And I agree ;)
Edit: another question
Whats the dataprocessing rating of a drone?
Pr the rule on og 179 pilot is a stand in for all mental attributes... but dataprocessing isnt a mental attribute.
Pilot is used to calculate how many autopilot skills a drone can run. Which usually is the job of dataprocessing- so maybe its pilot rating = DP?
Sensor rating is used to determine the device rating of the drone, so maybe its sensor rating = DP
Matrix initiative is calculated by pilot rating, usually its DP. This also points in the direction that pilot = DP
I think I will go with pilot=data processing, but a page reference would be nice.
And what of other things? Like the DP of my ares predator?
And a follow up question: An RCC can share its firewall rating to my drones... but I suppose it can share its DP rating. So if a hacker would use tarpit on my drone he would "just" have to beat its pilot rating to make it non functional for a while.
What if Im jumped into the drone, then I can use my own DP rating right? Which would mean of ot was just with my VCR that would be 2?
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In SR6 most devices don't have a Data Processing or Firewall rating of their own.
In order to gain a Data Processing or Firewall rating most devices need to be included in a 'network' of sorts. For Drones this would normally mean a network protected by a Remote Command Console, but it could also be a Cyberjack, a Commlink, a Living Network or a Host.
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In SR6 most devices don't have a Data Processing
Aaaaahh ok
.... Wait. But how does that interact with the rules saying: when DP is zero you cant make any matrix actions with the device until its higher again.
How can I use control device (matrix action) on a non slaved drone? Or how does the tarpit action Work against an Enemy drone? (If it isnt slaved).
I can see a PAN gives firewall to its slaved devices, but nothing about DP.
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How can I use control device (matrix action) on a non slaved drone?
By using a commlink, cyberdeck/cyberjack combination, RCC or a Living Persona.
Or how does the tarpit action Work against an Enemy drone? (If it isnt slaved).
Similar to a Data Spike.
I can see a PAN gives firewall to its slaved devices, but nothing about DP.
It doesn't only apply to firewall.
For example, if there is a cyberdeck in the network and you turned your cyberdeck to silent running and your drone is connected to the cyberdeck then the drone will be inside the silent running network. To spot the drone (or rather your entire silent running PAN) an observer need to beat your willpower and the sleaze rating of your cyberdeck.
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I can see a PAN gives firewall to its slaved devices, but nothing about DP.
It doesn't only apply to firewall.
For example, if there is a cyberdeck in the network and you turned your cyberdeck to silent running and your drone is connected to the cyberdeck then the drone will be inside the silent running network. To spot the drone (or rather your entire silent running PAN) an observer need to beat your willpower and the sleaze rating of your cyberdeck.
Aah I get it now. Somehow even after reading Banshees elaborations on the new matrix , I forgot about it and ended up in 5th ed terms.
Ok, so the drone doesnt have a firewall rating, nor a dataprocessing rating either. If said drone is slaved to my network, any attack on my network would use my commlinks, cyber jacks, RCCs matrix attributes as part of my defense.
Which also means that if the drone wasnt part of any network, it would be pretty vulnerable. Matrix DR of 0, 0 DP and 0 FW. But woyld have pilot attribute for some defense rolls at least.
Thanks a bunch- I award you 1 edge ;)